The "Fruit of the Vine" versus wine.

[po18guy]

my understanding is that wine and grape juice where by and large the same thing. So to interpret grape juice is correct and to interpret wine is also correct.

ALL that matters is that the wine/grape juice becomes the literal blood shed by christ while being in the visible form of wine/grape juice. If the wine/grape juice does not actually become the literal blood shed by christ then you gravely sin. Continue to return and you blashemy the Holy sprit(mark of the beast).

But, the Church has definitively declared that wine and wine alone will become the Blood of Christ. Not just any wine, but only grape wine. It is settled.

 

[po18guy]

FYI:
New U.S. Dietary Guidelines.
“For some Americans, drink less alcohol”

I certainly hope that you don’t think that all Catholics are big drinkers! Many do not drink at all, although there are certainly some who should drink less than they do.

Please tell me the Muslim teaching on alcohol, since I am ignorant of it, but suspect that it is prohibited. Are Sunnis and Shi’as united in this teaching?

 

[frnate]

Matthew 26:29
I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Actually I think the point that most people miss about this verse is that back then grape juice was referred to as “new wine” i.e. freshly pressed. Jesus says He will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until He drinks it “new” in His “Father’s kingdom.” The most obvious conclusion is that what He had just finished drinking at the Last Supper was not new wine.

++N

 

[po18guy]

Actually I think the point that most people miss about this verse is that back then grape juice was referred to as “new wine” i.e. freshly pressed. Jesus says He will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until He drinks it “new” in His “Father’s kingdom.” The most obvious conclusion is that what He had just finished drinking at the Last Supper was not new wine.

++N

We see in:

Hosea 4:11 “to prostitution; old wine and new wine take away their understanding”.
Joel 1:5 "Wake up, you drunkards, and weep! Wail, all you drinkers of wine; wail because of the new wine, for it has been snatched from your lips.
Acts 2:13 (King James Version) Others mocking said, ‘These men are full of new wine’.

No one becomes intoxicated, or is considered a drunkard by consuming grape juice. It appears that even “new wine” had alcohol content, based on these verses. Indeed, the very definition of wine is fermented juice.

 

[frnate]

We see in:

Hosea 4:11 “to prostitution; old wine and new wine take away their understanding”.
Joel 1:5 "Wake up, you drunkards, and weep! Wail, all you drinkers of wine; wail because of the new wine, for it has been snatched from your lips.
Acts 2:13 (King James Version) Others mocking said, ‘These men are full of new wine’.

No one becomes intoxicated, or is considered a drunkard by consuming grape juice. It appears that even “new wine” had alcohol content, based on these verses. Indeed, the very definition of wine is fermented juice.

I’m good with that too

++N

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus said you can’t put old wine in a new flask or else it will burst…

 

[po18guy]

I’m good with that too ++N

it is interesting that, before the age of refrigeration, wine was apparently divided into new and old groups, whereas today it is either wine, or it is not. Since new wine would burst old wine skins (which had already been stretched from the fermentation process), it appears that new wine was in the process of fermenting. Thus, it would have had at least some alcohol content. It might have been a rough equivalent of today’s Mad Dog 20/20, since it was not fully fermented and aged, so it was cheaper to purchase and more likely to be abused. Just some musings on the subject. Someone will certainly know more about it than I.

 

[cazayoux]

Why the Last Supper passages in the Bible mentioned “fruit of the vine” instead of “wine”, …

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches.

Matt 26:27-29
And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; for **this is my blood **of the covenant, **which is poured out **for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I shall not drink again of **this fruit of the vine **until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Jesus is the vine.
Isn’t “the fruit of the vine” his blood?

michel

 

[KathleenGee]

Blood represents the life force, and that is why a lamb’s blood was used for sprinkling the altar and the people in the Old Testament.

Unleaven bread and wine that is fermenting…they rise through the Holy Spirit vs the old wine and the old flask…

And that we must die to ourselves so the new life of Christ can come within and make us new. If we do not fall to the ground like a seed of wheat, we will not bear the life of Christ and His fruit…we will not be part of His vine and branches…

That grows and expands through the Holy Spirit the perfection of Jesus Christ and His virtues in this world…through us.

‘Do not be afraid!’ was Christ’s most frequent words.

 

[Sam_777]

Please tell me the Muslim teaching on alcohol, since I am ignorant of it, but suspect that it is prohibited. Are Sunnis and Shi’as united in this teaching?

Here is what Muhammed said:

**Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 34, Number 438: **
“I heard Allah’s Apostle, in the year of the Conquest of Mecca, saying, “Allah and His Apostle made illegal the trade of alcohol, dead animals, pigs and idols.” The people asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What about the fat of dead animals, for it was used for greasing the boats and the hides; and people use it for lights?” He said, “No, it is illegal.” Allah’s Apostle further said, "May Allah curse the Jews, for Allah made the fat (of animals) illegal for them, yet they melted the fat and sold it and ate its price.” (E)

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 26, Number 3666:
“The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Allah has cursed wine, its drinker, its server, its seller, its buyer, its presser, the one for whom it is pressed, the one who conveys it, and the one to whom it is conveyed.” (E)

 

[Sam_777]

Those hadiths are authentic and accepted at least by 90% of Muslims, anyway here is the prohibition from Quran:

(Quran 5:90):
“O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan’s handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.”

(Quran 2:219):
“They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: “In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit.” They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: “What is beyond your needs.” Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-”

 

[po18guy]

One wonders what was consumed, other than water, in Muhammad’s day.

 

[Sam_777]

One wonders what was consumed, other than water, in Muhammad’s day.

We all agree that drunkenness is a very bad thing, not only for the person himself/herself but also upon others.

However, I agree with Muhammed on that, even when some would say that he prohibited that so his soldiers would fight well in the battles…

 

[Sam_777]

I agree with you, but also Islam contains some good teachings same like any other secular law these days…

 

[po18guy]

We all agree that drunkenness is a very bad thing, not only for the person himself/herself but also upon others.

However, I agree with Muhammed on that, even when some would say that he prohibited that so his soldiers would fight well in the battles…

With regard to alcohol, only the priest is required to consume Christ’s Blood. The laity may choose to consume or not to consume. We receive the full benefit from either species of Holy Eucharist. Christ is equally present.

Abuse of alcohol is sinful. It’s mere consumption is not.

 

[KathleenGee]

Sam,

One thing I didn’t like about the Hadith you shared is the use of cursing…to condemn the Jews for such practices does not deserved to be curse. It appears over the top, of passion and little thinking. Just going around cursing other people…the Jews have been quite prosperous historically…it looks like a passive aggressive form of profound fraternal envy.

What is cursed is sin. And sin is the break of our relationship to God, to ourselves, or to our neighbor. Sin is abusing that which is sacred, abusing ourselves or our neighbors that takes away from the dignity and wholesomeness God has given us.

As others are trying to share with you, the Eucharist retains the original form of bread and wine, but it is indeed transformed into the living Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

My 4 year old son was given the Eucharist by an elderly priest in Salt Lake City, and th experience profoundly affected him, noting the power and presence of God. He always would go up with his arms folded…to be blessed…and some how that day a missive happened. But I started remembering it reading this thread.

I would be a little shocked but not feel negative seeing an Orthodox infant receive the Eucharist…and in fact, think, why not?.. More grace of Christ…look at the strength of the Eastern Christians who have endured so many hard realities we do not have here in the states…Communism is the Cross without Christ, the West is Christ without the cross…

 

[po18guy]

Quite right. “Catholic” means universal, rather than identical.

 

[KathleenGee]

Sam,

Adam and Eve were warned not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil for in that very same day they would die…

Jesus is the Tree of Life, the Bread of Life…and the Cup of Christ’s blood…the price He paid to restore life back to us…is our means of salvation.

Every Mass is the New Passover…and there are 4 basic Eucharist Prayers …Here is the prayer said after the consecrating of bread and wine so that it becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus…

The priest prays to Our Heavenly Father…

'Father, we celebrate the memory of Christ, your Son. We, your people and your ministers, recall his passion, his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension into glory; and from the many gifts you have given us we offer to you, God of glory and majesty, this holy and perfect sacrifice: the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation.

Look with favor on these offerings and accept them as once you accepted the gifts of your servant Abel, the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith, and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchisedech.

Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.’

Jesus fulfilled the Law, and through Him they became blessings for us. I keep you in my ongoing prayers for faith and understanding.