The Fruits of Vatican II

[Emeraldlady]

Unfortunately mercy, understanding and acceptance have overshadowed the hard sayings of the Church and Scripture. Too many people want to believe in Jesus as the loving lamb who welcomes everyone and doesn’t turn anybody away.

The holy attribute driving the Council was precisely Gods mercy. We know that that attribute was somewhat lost in the rigidity of stale practice for some time as the Church had to face accusations of different sorts. But the Church in the mid 1900s was also being taught by Christ through a little, insignificant nun in Poland. Her voice pierced through the heirarchical walls with the same authority as the poor carpenters voice had. Woe betide us to continue to suppress the great mercy of God.

“‘Proclaim that mercy is the greatest attribute of God. All the works of My hands are crowned with mercy.’” (No. 301)*​

“‘Oh how much I am hurt by a soul’s distrust! Such a soul professes that I am Holy and Just, but does not believe that I am Mercy and does not trust in My Goodness. Even the devils believe in My Justice, but do not glorify My Goodness. My Heart rejoices in this title of Mercy.’” (No. 300)​

“All grace flows from mercy, and the last hour abounds with mercy for us. Let no one doubt concerning the goodness of God; even if a person’s sins were as dark as night, God’s mercy is stronger than our misery. One thing alone is necessary; that the sinner set ajar the door of his heart, be it ever so little, to let in a ray of God’s merciful grace, and then God will do the rest.” (No. 1507)​

“I demand from you deeds of mercy which are to arise out of love for me. You are to show mercy to your neighbors always and everywhere. You must not shrink from this or try to excuse yourself from it.” (742)

“Write this: before I come as the just Judge, I am coming first as the King of Mercy.”

“While there is yet time, let them have recourse to the fountain of my mercy.” (848) … He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice.” (1146)

“When once I asked the Lord Jesus how He could tolerate so many sins and crimes and not punish them, the Lord answered me, ‘I have an eternity for punishing [these], and so I am prolonging the time of mercy for the sake of [sinners]. But woe to them if they do not recognize the time of My visitation.’” (No. 1160)​

With the joyful yet sober prophecy of Faustina, how can one not err on the side of acting mercifully as a witness of God to the world?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

The holy attribute driving the Council was precisely Gods mercy. We know that that attribute was somewhat lost in the rigidity of stale practice for some time as the Church had to face accusations of different sorts.

Those are all beautiful and awesome quotes from God given to St. Faustina but God’s mercy did not start there.

If so, I guess I would have to ask how long had the Church been in a rigid and stale state? and why did so many saints and martyrs die for something and someone, Christ and His Church, they considered so beautiful and merciful and whom they loved so much. I am not saying the Church isn’t beautiful and awesome now because it is but I believe it has always been since it’s founding by Christ. IMHO the Catholic church has always been awesome, loving and merciful, not rigid or stale.
I have Catholic ancestors that handed down the beautiful merciful Catholic faith long before Vatican II. They and all of the Catholics of the past built churches and Cathedrals out of love for the Church because in it they found mercy and forgiveness.

Many saints of the past speak of the mercy of God.

St. Teresa of Avila, “I will sing the mercies of God”

St. Catherine of Siena, “O my dearest daughter, as I have told you so often, I want to be merciful to the world and provide for my reasoning creatures’ every need.”

St. Margaret Mary, I want them all to have confidence in My mercy, to expect all from My clemency, and never to doubt My readiness to forgive."

Bishop Robert Barron, Pope St. Pius X expresses a gentleness, understanding, hope, and mercy that are reminiscent of our Pope Francis,…

God bless

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

The holy attribute driving the Council was precisely Gods mercy. We know that that attribute was somewhat lost in the rigidity of stale practice for some time as the Church had to face accusations of different sorts.

Those are all beautiful and awesome quotes from God given to St. Faustina but God’s mercy did not start there.

If so, I guess I would have to ask how long had the Church been in a rigid and stale state? and why did so many saints and martyrs die for something and someone, Christ and His Church, they considered so beautiful and merciful and whom they loved so much. I am not saying the Church isn’t beautiful and awesome now because it is but I believe it has always been since it’s founding by Christ. IMHO the Catholic church has always been awesome, loving and merciful, not rigid or stale.
I have Catholic ancestors that handed down the beautiful merciful Catholic faith long before Vatican II. They and all of the Catholics of the past built churches and Cathedrals out of love for the Church because in it they found mercy and forgiveness.

Some of the rigid protocols have been already mentioned in the thread such as that surrounding the burial of suicide victims. The Church was increasingly aware that something was in need of updating to more fully express the attribute of Gods mercy. All that has been documented in the opening speech at Vatican II by Pope St John XXIII.

At the outset of the Second Vatican Council, it is evident, as always, that the truth of the Lord will remain forever. We see, in fact, as one age succeeds another, that the opinions of men follow one another and exclude each other. And often errors vanish as quickly as they arise, like fog before the sun.

The Church has always opposed these errors. Frequently she has condemned them with the greatest severity. Nowadays, however, the Spouse of Christ prefers to make use of the medicine of mercy rather than that of severity. She considers that she meets the needs of the present day by demonstrating the validity of her teaching rather than by condemnations. Not, certainly, that there is a lack of fallacious teaching, opinions, and dangerous concepts to be guarded against and dissipated. But these are so obviously in contrast with the right norm of honesty, and have produced such lethal fruits, that by now it would seem that men of themselves are inclined to condemn them, particularly those ways of life which despise God and His law or place excessive confidence in technical progress and a well-being based exclusively on the comforts of life. They are ever more deeply convinced of the paramount dignity of the human person and of his perfections, as well as of the duties which that implies. Even more important, experience has taught men that violence inflicted on others, the might of arms, and political domination, are of no help at all in finding a happy solution to the grave problems which afflict them.

 

[Emeraldlady]

That being so, the Catholic Church, raising the torch of religious truth by means of this Ecumenical Council, desires to show herself to be the loving mother of all, benign, patient, full of mercy and goodness toward the brethren who are separated from her. To mankind, oppressed by so many difficulties, the Church says, as Peter said to the poor who begged alms from him: “I have neither gold nor silver, but what I have I give you; in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise and walk” (Acts 3:6). In other words, the Church does not offer to the men of today riches that pass, nor does she promise them a merely earthly happiness. But she distributes to them the goods of divine grace which, raising men to the dignity of sons of God, are the most efficacious safeguards and aids toward a more human life. She opens the fountain of her life-giving doctrine which allows men, enlightened by the light of Christ, to understand well what they really are, what their lofty dignity and their purpose are, and, finally, through her children, she spreads everywhere the fullness of Christian charity, than which nothing is more effective in eradicating the seeds of discord, nothing more efficacious in promoting concord, just peace, and the brotherly unity of all.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

At the outset of the Second Vatican Council, it is evident, as always, that the truth of the Lord will remain forever.

I have read this quote before but nowhere does it say the Church prior to the council was not merciful, but instead rigid and stale. I am finding it sad that Catholics are increasingly thinking of their own Church and it’s history in this way. The Holy Spirit has always moved in the Church, guided the Church and protected the Church and will continue to do so.

Catechism of Trent:
it is a duty of greatest moment that pastors should unhesitatingly teach that this Sacrament (Penance) owes its institution to the singular goodness and mercy of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who has ordered all things well, and solely with a view to our salvation.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Are you taking a stand against Pope Johns stated reasons for calling the Council? ie that it wanted to attune the practices of the Church to more effectively impart the merciful nature of God. You seem stuck in a false dichotomy that isn’t allowing you to recognise the Church as a living growing organism.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Are you taking a stand against Pope Johns stated reasons for calling the Council?

Lol, no. I think you are reading more into what he is saying than what is there.

that it wanted to attune the practices of the Church to more effectively impart the merciful nature of God

I will agree they wanted to be more pastoral to the world and express God’s mercy in new ways but as I said before he did not say the Church prior to the council was rigid and stale but rather always proclaiming the truth.

You seem stuck in a false dichotomy that isn’t allowing you to recognise the Church as a living growing organism.

Well, in all charity, I do not think you are capable of reading my mind or my thoughts from a computer but in answer to that, no. As I said I believe the Church has always been a living growing organism, always led by the Holy Spirit, including before the council and always will be.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I am finding it sad that Catholics are increasingly thinking of their own Church and it’s history in this way.

What do you think of Pope St JPII’s 250 apologies in recognition of failures of the Church in the past or the apologies of the Church today for the abuses that have been inflicted and hidden because of secrecy policies.

I’m personally proud and blessed to have been formed and groomed by the Church of my ancestors. But also grateful for its evolving under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to better evangelise.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

What do you think of Pope St JPII’s 250 apologies in recognition of failures of the Church

These were failures of people in the Church, not failures of the Church. Just the same as today. It is the sins of the people in the Church that need forgiveness, not sins of the Church.

The Church itself can not err in regard to faith and morals. This would be accusing Our Lord of falsehood and deception.

But also grateful for its evolving under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to better evangelise.

That is good to hear. Remember the Holy Spirit was there in the past also, guiding the Church.

 

[otjm]

Now, I have a further question. Do you think that the fruits of Vatican II are so good that any attempt to return to pre-vatican Ii practices should be suppressed?

As likely has been the case for 2,000 years, there is a spectrum of opinions and ideas among bishops. But with the exception of an insignificant number (there are more than 5,000 bishops now), there is no movement to return to pre-V2 practices. That is not to discount those priests, either in orders/societies (FSSP, e.g.) or diocesan who practice the EF Mass and related other Sacrament forms; but they are minuscule to the overall Church. And the SSPX don’t appear to be making any significant growth as an outlier. To put it in numbers, the FSSP website notes that there are 300 priests and 150 seminarians (and I have no idea when they last updated the site); in the US there were 25,254 diocesan priests, 11,326 order priests, and 18,291 deacons. And out of 17,007 parishes in the US, approximately 3% had an EF Mass, with a range from being an EF parish, down to having an EF Mass occasionally (e.g. every other week to once a month, on EF Mass). Certainly there appears to be a bit of speculation that the survey coming out of Rome concerning the EF is an attempt, veiled, to suppress the EF, but if I understood the matter, there was one 10 years ago in the same general vein and business continued as usual.

 

[otjm]

OK. So why are obstacles always placed in the way of any return to traditional ways?

It was Pope Benedict who wrote the rules as to how people were to go about requesting the EF. It also contained, if I recall correctly, the appeal process by which those who were requesting could seek higher review than the bishop should the bishop not provide for their request.

That is one aspect; the other is that by the same document, the Pope made it clear that a priest could not be required to say the EF - it appears the vast majority are not trained to do so and since the training is relatively available to any priest who wants to do so, once might conclude they are not interested.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

that it wanted to attune the practices of the Church to more effectively impart the merciful nature of God

I will agree they wanted to be more pastoral to the world and express God’s mercy in new ways but as I said before he did not say the Church prior to the council was rigid and stale but rather always proclaiming the truth.

I didn’t say the Church prior to the council was rigid and stale either. I said they recognised the rigidity of stale practices. There’s a different that I hope you can discern in that.

Pope John used expressions like "I want to throw open the windows of the Church and let the fresh air of the Spirit blow through.” and he wanted to edit out of the liturgy condemnation references to the Jews as ‘perfidous’ and other Christians as heretics and schismatics. He wanted the Church to acknowledge the “ray of Truth” in other religions justifying ecumenical dialogue and lighting a path to the unity in Christ. He wanted to dispel the impression that “the church is not a museum of antiques but a living garden of life".

He certainly believed the Church needed ‘updating’.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Again in all charity, he did not say the practices of our Holy Mother Church were rigid and stale.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Remember the Holy Spirit was there in the past also, guiding the Church.

Which is why my children have a love of Saints and were educated by schools promoting these timeless charisms and now they by the grace of God embrace the truth of Apostolic succession to the point that 2 of them have even seriously discerned religious vocation with a vocations apostolate. It’s so strange to think that someone truly believes I don’t know that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Church before Vatican II?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I’m sure that you know the Holy Spirit always guides the Church.
Sometimes, though, when we compare ourselves today with any other time in Church history, it is easy to see their faults and not our own. Its easy to forget the Holy Spirit has always led the Church and the past gave us many many saints.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Sometimes when we compare ourselves today with any other time in Church history, it is easy to see their faults and not our own.

The irony is that far from doing that, I’m here defending the Church today against claims that it’s a failure and we need to go back to the past. No one in their right mind would actually argue that there are no faults with the Church today. That is plain to see.

If you’ll note from #125, the post I first responded to, I objected to Crusaders criticism that "Too many people want to believe in Jesus as the loving lamb who welcomes everyone and doesn’t turn anybody away."

I thought that deserved challenging and stand by that.

 

[otjm]

Remember Vatican II documents are pastoral not dogmatic.

;That is so strange! Imagine those 2,000 bishops, and the 5 Popes leading us down such a lie? Why the though=t of it… Oh…

The DOGMATIC Constitution on the Church

The DOGMATIC Constitution on Divine Revelation

Yep - it is just pastoral, and not… what?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I did not say anything at all about any bishops or Vatican 2 lying.

Vatican 2 did not pronounce any new dogmas. It was a pastoral council. It didn’t change any dogmas either (they do not change)but it spoke of dogmas already in place.

God bless

 

[otjm]

I did not say anything at all about any bishops or Vatican 2 lying.

You said it was a pastoral Council and not a dogmatic one. They named two of their documents Dogmatic.

I am not going to parse this with you; we both know they did not state any new dogmas, but the Council was Dogmatic when it spoke to further define existing dogmas. I am so sick and tired of the “pastoral” bit as if (and I am not saying you used these words) we could ignore it if it fancies us.

You didn’t have to say anything about the bishops lying; it is sufficient to say it was not dogmatic (the cry of all too many who can’t say enough bad things about V2 and who are openly contemptuous of it). My comment was hyperbole; you apparently do not like that. That is fine, but the Council explored existing dogma and expanded upon it - a point which others seem incapable of grasping - or choose to not grasp.

There is nothing - nada, zip - in Scripture, Tradition, Church law or the history of the Church which says that all Councils, in order to have legitimacy must declare new dogma or doctrine. This one spent more time on updating issues and bringing consensus on issue which were not discussing dogma or doctrine, but were resolving directions in practice. Nor is there anything in those areas which say that if a Council further explores dogma instead of defining new dogma, that it is not a doctrinal council.
That does not mean that people can simply blow it off with a comment that “it was pastoral, not dogmatic”. It was both.

 

[Emeraldlady]

That does not mean that people can simply blow it off with a comment that “it was pastoral, not dogmatic”. It was both.

Exactly. They aren’t mutually exclusive.