The "Gay Gene": Does it Matter?

[Joe_5859]

Blessedtoo, MdntDrmr’s links did work for me if I cut and pasted them. I notice that MdntDrmr didn’t address your point that one of the three articles actually argues against a gay gene.

MdntDrmr, just because two people were victimized and it made national headlines years ago does not back up the assertion that homosexuals are in immediate grave danger of being “beat, hurt, cursed and killed” for being homosexual. It’s two isolated incidents. I could probably find at least one or two instances where heterosexual people were “beat, hurt, cursed and killed”, too. It doesn’t justify making such broad generalizations.

The fact that most don’t choose it is also not proof that it is genetic. If it was the result of upbringing, that too is beyond most children’s control.

But, all this is really off topic. Whether or not it is nature, nurture, or a combination of both doesn’t change the morality of homosexual acts. For those, there is always a choice. No one is saying that those with the inclination are guilty of sin. Only if they act on it.

 

[buffalo]

It is worth bringing up epigenetics again which shows that environment and lifestyle can be passsed on. That would make us culpable in homosexuality.

 

[estesbob]

First of all those links work fine. Just cut them and paste them in your browser and there they are. Secondly, it does matter because, if it didn’t, we would not be discussing it.

So if we have a disucssion on space aliens that means they exist? This scares me becuase I have seen threads where they discuss Barney the Purple Dinosaurr and if he exists I am not sure I could handle it(have you ever heard the barney song!!)

 

[estesbob]

blessedtoo;3262123:

back up the claim that homosexuals, as a group, are “beat, hurt, curse and killed” for being homosexual.

Do I need to go further than the name Matthew Sheppard? Sean Kennedy? Those are just two that can be named off the top of my head that have gained national attention.

Actaully those are probaly about the only two you can mention and sheprard was killed in a drug deal gone bad.

A hate crime occurs when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her membership in a certain social group, usually defined by race, religion, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, or political affiliation.

All crimes are hate crimes.

This would be similar to the way religious leaders were persecuted in the Bible.

And religious people are mocked and persecuted today/

 

[whatevergirl]

I listened to a program a while back, speaking about the fall of man in the Garden, and how up until this fall–we were all born perfect–no disease, no pain, no struggles…we were to have lived in a Paradise. But, free will (leading against God’s will)…caused the fall, and now we see babies born with birth defects, disease, etc…The program continued with…how if science has discovered a ‘gay gene’ in a homosexual’s make up…wouldn’t this also mean, that we can view that as part of the fall of man? I thought that was interesting, because when you look at alcoholics who are ‘born’ with the disease…does that mean they shouldn’t strive to overcome it later in life? The genetic makeup is there…but, they need to overcome the disorder that they were born with…later in life, for their own health, well being, etc… Could the same hold true for homosexuality? In the CCC–The Church is not condemning homosexuality…it speaks to living a chaste life, as only two people who are married, should be sexually active. That being said…I don’t have an opinion on the homosexual gene yet…as I have not read enough about it to make an informed opinion–but, it does seem to coincide with the fall of man…and other genetic disorders or diseases that we are taught to overcome.

I think the argument is often that homosexuals feel that if they are born with it…they are like heterosexuals, and God created them that way. That’s the rub. From the scientific evidence, just because we are born a particular way, doesn’t mean, it was God’s work. I think it’s a fascinating discussion. I need to learn more about all this.

My question is this…if there is proof of a ‘gay’ gene out there…should it matter…as the title of this thread indicates? Shouldn’t the person still strive to live chastely, even if he/she is born that way?

 

[buffalo]

I listened to a program a while back, speaking about the fall of man in the Garden, and how up until this fall–we were all born perfect–no disease, no pain, no struggles…we were to have lived in a Paradise. But, free will (leading against God’s will)…caused the fall, and now we see babies born with birth defects, disease, etc…The program continued with…how if science has discovered a ‘gay gene’ in a homosexual’s make up…wouldn’t this also mean, that we can view that as part of the fall of man? I thought that was interesting, because when you look at alcoholics who are ‘born’ with the disease…does that mean they shouldn’t strive to overcome it later in life? The genetic makeup is there…but, they need to overcome the disorder that they were born with…later in life, for their own health, well being, etc… Could the same hold true for homosexuality? In the CCC–The Church is not condemning homosexuality…it speaks to living a chaste life, as only two people who are married, should be sexually active. That being said…I don’t have an opinion on the homosexual gene yet…as I have not read enough about it to make an informed opinion–but, it does seem to coincide with the fall of man…and other genetic disorders or diseases that we are taught to overcome.

I think the argument is often that homosexuals feel that if they are born with it…they are like heterosexuals, and God created them that way. That’s the rub. From the scientific evidence, just because we are born a particular way, doesn’t mean, it was God’s work. I think it’s a fascinating discussion. I need to learn more about all this.

My question is this…if there is proof of a ‘gay’ gene out there…should it matter…as the title of this thread indicates? Shouldn’t the person still strive to live chastely, even if he/she is born that way?

Epigenetics is the key. We were all schooled that you could not pass developed traits to your children. Epigenetics shows you can.

I will use a computer analogy -

DNA is the hardware -
Epigenetics is the sofware that programs the hardware

The software instructions can change due to lifestyle and environmental factors. These instructions can be passed on.

I agree, all of this is of no consequence. One is still called to seek perfection and overcome faults.

 

[whatevergirl]

Epigenetics is the key. We were all schooled that you could not pass developed traits to your children. Epigenetics shows you can.

I will use a computer analogy -

DNA is the hardware -
Epigenetics is the sofware that programs the hardware

The software instructions can change due to lifestyle and environmental factors. These instructions can be passed on.

I agree, all of this is of no consequence. One is still called to seek perfection and overcome faults.

I see-thank you for that analogy…seems a little clearer.:hypno: haha No, it does…So, then, the argument is more about if a person has developed those traits and passed them on, as opposed to genetic makeup? Can we pass on developed traits?

 

[buffalo]

I see-thank you for that analogy…seems a little clearer.:hypno: haha No, it does…So, then, the argument is more about if a person has developed those traits and passed them on, as opposed to genetic makeup? Can we pass on developed traits?

Yes, and that point in itself invalidates the God made me that way argument. It supports the Church’s teachings on the fall and corruption. It also may suggest that our gene pool which was perfect with Adam and Eve is getting more contaminated by unhealthy lifestyles and technology.

 

[whatevergirl]

Yes, and that point in itself invalidates the God made me that way argument. It supports the Church’s teachings on the fall and corruption. It also may suggest that our gene pool which was perfect with Adam and Eve is getting more contaminated by unhealthy lifestyles and technology.

Yes!!! That is what that program discussed…I think that is (sadly) remarkable…basically, mankind will be its own downfall.

 

[blessedtoo]

Blessedtoo, MdntDrmr’s links did work for me if I cut and pasted them. I notice that MdntDrmr didn’t address your point that one of the three articles actually argues against a gay gene.

MdntDrmr, just because two people were victimized and it made national headlines years ago does not back up the assertion that homosexuals are in immediate grave danger of being “beat, hurt, cursed and killed” for being homosexual. It’s two isolated incidents. I could probably find at least one or two instances where heterosexual people were “beat, hurt, cursed and killed”, too. It doesn’t justify making such broad generalizations.

The fact that most don’t choose it is also not proof that it is genetic. If it was the result of upbringing, that too is beyond most children’s control.

But, all this is really off topic. Whether or not it is nature, nurture, or a combination of both doesn’t change the morality of homosexual acts. For those, there is always a choice. No one is saying that those with the inclination are guilty of sin. Only if they act on it.

Thanks Joe! Usually posters provide direct links. Didn’t think to cut and paste!

Of course I noticed there was no response to the signifiicant points. That’s okay. His own link provides all the necessary “proof” that any objective research on this subject will be thwarted or misconstrued by the agenda-driven media and activists.

Yes, two cases hardly constitutes a basis for broad sweeping statements. It would not take much investigating for me to come up with at least that many to prove anti-Catholic or anti-Christian “hate” crimes are a threat.

 

[justinthemartyr]

no gene, no topic.

 

[MdntDrmr]

According to UCR, which is where all Law Enforcement Agencies report to, I have it up in the next window. In 2006, 1415 hate crimes were commited on the sole basis of a persons sexual orientation. Matthew Shepard was not a drug deal gone bad. That has been proven years ago, the guys themselves admitted they did it because he was homosexual.

Besides all that, the fact remains that if a person lives by what they should, none of this matters. Because the same as those men having sex is the girls getting pregnant out of wedlock and the boys that are fathering these babies. They are going to hell as well as who you think will.

Besides that, God will tell them their fate. WE will not. The church will not. The church can give its opinion all it wants, that does not make it so or make it law. There is not one person that can say they live by exactly what the church tells them to.

Besides, what they do in their bedroom has nothing to do with the gene. There is research supporting both sides of that arguement. So, there is not proof it is or is not a gene.

 

[Joe_5859]

According to UCR, which is where all Law Enforcement Agencies report to, I have it up in the next window. In 2006, 1415 hate crimes were commited on the sole basis of a persons sexual orientation. Matthew Shepard was not a drug deal gone bad. That has been proven years ago, the guys themselves admitted they did it because he was homosexual.

Were those all violent crimes? Who determined the cause of these crimes to be the sexual orientation of the victim? In any case, it is surely wrong to do violence to someone like that. I’m not sure what this has to do with the thread.

Besides all that, the fact remains that if a person lives by what they should, none of this matters. Because the same as those men having sex is the girls getting pregnant out of wedlock and the boys that are fathering these babies. They are going to hell as well as who you think will.

I’m not sure I exactly understand what you’re saying. No one here is passing judgment on anyone’s eternal destiny. But, that doesn’t mean we can’t pass judgment on someone’s actions. Surely we can tell a murderer that it was wrong and sinful for them to murder someone. But I would never say they are definitely going to hell. There is always a chance for someone to repent of their wrongdoing. And yes, those heterosexual people who engage in sex outside of marriage are also committing a sin.

Besides that, God will tell them their fate. WE will not. The church will not. The church can give its opinion all it wants, that does not make it so or make it law. There is not one person that can say they live by exactly what the church tells them to.

If you are Catholic, the Church’s teaching is not mere “opinion”. It is based on the teachings of Jesus and handed down to us through the apostles and their successors who are guided by the Holy Spirit to speak without error on matters of faith and morals. But the Church does not say that anyone is in hell. However, the Church certainly tells us what actions are right and wrong.

And you are absolutely correct that no one lives up to the Church’s moral teachings. We all sin. That’s why we have the Sacrament of Confession! But simply because we fail to live up to the moral law does not mean, therefore, that it does not exist. We are all sinners. The saints aren’t saints because they don’t sin, they are saints because they recognize they are sinners in need of God’s mercy and they humbly submit themselves to the will of the Lord.

Besides, what they do in their bedroom has nothing to do with the gene. There is research supporting both sides of that arguement. So, there is not proof it is or is not a gene.

And this is what this whole thread has been about. It seems you agree that, whether or not it is genetic, it doesn’t matter because it’s their choices “in the bedroom” that individuals are responsible for.

 

[MdntDrmr]

I just think everyone needs to leave the people alone. If they sin, that is them. As long as we do not treat them different and we witness to them, who cares if it is a choice, a right or a gene?

I just hate people always downing poeple saying this and that. I am not trying to be mean or say that it is right or wrong. I do not agree with everything the church says. I have never met anyone who does agree 100%. I hope I never do actually. Because even Jesus would not agree with the church 100%, that is my opinion. We are all human, even the Bishops and so on.

My answer to the thread would be: No, I do not think it matters one bit. However, I do think it matters how we treat the people.

By the way, those crimes form the UCR are all violent and they are recorded by the words used before the crime is committed. Such as just two weeks ago in Atlanta, a man screamed out “queer” and then shot a guy. Just so happened that the guy was not even a homosexual. He was with his girlfriend and they were on their way into a club.

These type offenders are just as bad as anyone else and deserve to be charged with a hate crime, because they are causing a whole group of people to be in fear.

Again, this is just an opinion.

 

[estesbob]

I just think everyone needs to leave the people alone. If they sin, that is them. As long as we do not treat them different and we witness to them, who cares if it is a ]
choice, a right or a gene?

well their immortal souls are in danger but what the heck it’s no skin off our back, right??

I just hate people always downing poeple saying this and that. I am not trying to be mean or say that it is right or wrong. I do not agree with everything the church says. I have never met anyone who does agree 100%. I hope I never do actually. Because even Jesus would not agree with the church 100%, that is my opinion. We are all human, even the Bishops and so on.

Could you give us a list of those teachings we are allowed to disobey? It really would be helpful.

I am a little confused about why you think Jesus would not agree with the church 100%. Since Jesus and the Church are one and the same doesn’t it seem a little odd that he would disagree with himself? Now you said that this is your opinion so perhaps you could tell us what your opinion is based on?

My answer to the thread would be: No, I do not think it matters one bit. However, I do think it matters how we treat the people.

I agree it does not matter one bit. I’m a little confused by your comment that all that matters is how we treat people. What does that mean? Are you implying that if we state the fact that homosexual behavior is sinful that that is mistreating them?

By the way, those crimes form the UCR are all violent and they are recorded by the words used before the crime is committed. Such as just two weeks ago in Atlanta, a man screamed out “queer” and then shot a guy. Just so happened that the guy was not even a homosexual. He was with his girlfriend and they were on their way into a club.

I believe all crimes are hate crimes. Don’t you?

These type offenders are just as bad as anyone else and deserve to be charged with a hate crime, because they are causing a whole group of people to be in fear.

Again, this is just an opinion.

If somebody beats me to a pulp in a bar does it really matter what his motive was?

 

[blessedtoo]

I just think everyone needs to leave the people alone. If they sin, that is them.

I would like to BE left alone as well. Problem is, we have not been left alone by those in the homosexual community who wish to force acceptance of sin and disordered lifestyles on the rest of the world. We are not the aggressors. Check out some of the hate-filled anti-Catholic rhetoric and activity that recently poured out of San Francisco.

I just hate people always downing poeple saying this and that.

No one is “downing” people. We are “downing” sin. Do you disagree with that? Should we applaud sin?

I am not trying to be mean or say that it is right or wrong.

Saying something is “wrong” is being mean? Are parents “mean” when they tell their children not to use drugs or drop out of school?

I do not agree with everything the church says.

You might want to work on that.

I have never met anyone who does agree 100%.

You have now!

 

[pathia]

I would like to BE left alone as well. Problem is, we have not been left alone by those in the homosexual community who wish to force acceptance of sin and disordered lifestyles on the rest of the world. We are not the aggressors. Check out some of the hate-filled anti-Catholic rhetoric and activity that recently poured out of San Francisco.

I want to be left alone too. I have been fired six times because my PRIVATE life was discovered. I did not tell anyone, I did not ‘flaunt’ it, I did not discuss anything at all. I just wanted to do my work and make an honest living, but given what I do, often involves a background check…that’s all she wrote as soon as they find out. I have been homeless on multiple occasions because of this, thank goodness for the kindness and warmth of friend’s couches.

I have also been assaulted twice, one time there was an attempted rape along with the assault. The police LAUGHED at me when I tried to report the incident and called me a (insert term for female dog)-y queen.

 

[whatevergirl]

I want to be left alone too. I have been fired six times because my PRIVATE life was discovered. I did not tell anyone, I did not ‘flaunt’ it, I did not discuss anything at all. I just wanted to do my work and make an honest living, but given what I do, often involves a background check…that’s all she wrote as soon as they find out. I have been homeless on multiple occasions because of this, thank goodness for the kindness and warmth of friend’s couches.

I have also been assaulted twice, one time there was an attempted rape along with the assault. The police LAUGHED at me when I tried to report the incident and called me a (insert term for female dog)-y queen.

pathia–my heart goes out to you–I have read a few of your posts on here and I can only imagine the anguish you’re in…I don’t believe anyone should be fired or discriminated against…have you ever sought to sue these past employers? Have you sought counsel from the EEOC?

 

[pathia]

pathia–my heart goes out to you–I have read a few of your posts on here and I can only imagine the anguish you’re in…I don’t believe anyone should be fired or discriminated against…have you ever sought to sue these past employers? Have you sought counsel from the EEOC?

Yes, it’s not illegal in this state to do so, so I have no complaint. I’ve also talked to the ACLU, they won’t take the case because there’s no case to make. It’s legal here, period.

I can make a fuss, but there’s no legal action that I can take place because it is ‘at will’. Unless I was fired on the basis of disability/race/ethnicity/sex. There is nothing against firing someone for being non-straight in most states. They are perfectly able to do so.

 

[steve_n_theresa]

I don’t know if anybody has posted that there is a Catholic Apostolate that helps people born with the tendency. It is called COURAGE and can be found easily by googling
“Courage - The Apostolate”.

I have a couple of relatives who were overjoyed to find a group like this.

Here is the first lines from their website.
“”
Persons with homosexual desires have always been with us; however, until recent times, there has been little, if any, formal outreach from the Church in the way of support groups or information for such persons. Most were left to work out their path on their own. As a result, they found themselves listening to and accepting the secular society’s perspective and opting to act on their same-sex desires.
His Eminence, the late Terence Cardinal Cooke of New York, was aware of, and troubled by this situation. He knew that the individual dealing with same-sex attractions truly needed to experience the freedom of interior chastity.

“experience the freedom of interior chastity”

That last line says it all.

I personally want to be freed from my worldly desires , all of them. Anybody who has felt the pull of desires of any kind,
be it sexual
or drugs
or even food
or acquiring wealth and power
and sees how it negatively impacts the soul, can understand the negativity of such desires gone wild.

Resistance feels futile.

I tend towards much self-indulgence in many ways. Jesus has promised me that I can be freed if I unite myself to Him.

It starts with denying the body it’s desire.

Fasting doesn’t just mean from food.

Interior freedom is won only by fighting the battles between my spirit and my body. Between my spiritual instincts and my animal instincts.

That sounds like an impossibility, but it isn’t. Not if you make being with God your goal.

It starts with one sentence “I want to be with you Jesus.”

Theresa