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a_mirror_dimly
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Indeed, I can certainly understand that. At the same time, it’s rather disturbing to me that I believe in free will primarily for pragmatic rather than intellectual reasons. I suppose you could say that I take free will as an article of faith despite that fact that I not only can I not conceive of how it is possible, but that it actually seems inescapable that it is impossible.
Thus, while I certainly believe that we have free will, I find it difficult to simply dismiss the idea that we don’t.
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RobHom
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Where? I think calvinism is clear cut. What I posted came directly from a subpage of this site: calvinistcorner.com/index.html There is no “straw man”…unless it is the one the calvinists have mounted on the stake.
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Steadfast
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My Calvinist bona fides:
10 years in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church which is, unarguably, the most self-consciously ardent classical Calvinist church in the USA.
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RobHom
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Often times, more than randomness and evidential process is involved in decisions…“gut reaction” comes into play. Call it intuitive reasoning. We cannot define the basis of the decision, but we feel deep in our gut that it is the best way to go. Decisions such as this often are made at points of stress, duress, danger…maybe even in combat. They are often made without any necessarily “sound reasons”…but the reasons as fleeting as they may be…are sound to the decision maker. I have been in that position…and I have learned that failure on my part to respond to my gut…is usually a wrong move.
Free will is not a hard thing to define. It is simply a gift or curse, depending on who one is and how they use it… We are free to decide, and also based on the evidence, knowledge, ramifications, justifications, or disastrous result…we can go either way as we desire. Its the ability to make choices to our benefit or in spite of ourselves. Its that simple. People make to much out of it.
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RobHom
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OK…so what did I post regarding calvinism that is untrue? Are you will to go head to head with the owner of that website and tell him he has his head in the sand and is clueless and demand that he correct it?
In what I posted…there is nothing to “misunderstand”. Its there in black and white.
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Steadfast
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Rob, I wasn’t aware that I was arguing with you.
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a_mirror_dimly
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Ok, but that gut instinct, that intuitive reasoning, is just one more (name removed by moderator)ut. Either your response is determined by the sum of those (name removed by moderator)uts, or you randomly deviate from the decision that sum of (name removed by moderator)uts would predict. Hence, we’re still stuck at the same place.
What does it mean “to make choices to our benefit or in spite of ourselves”? Either we add up all of our experiences, senses, beliefs, and instincts, and make the best decision that that combination of factors would suggest, or we at some frequency decide to deviate from that combination of factors for no reason.
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CHESTERTONRULES
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Then you should understand that my description is accurate.
Which aspect of the OP do you find inaccurate?
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Steadfast
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The manufacture of 2 positive statements from what is, theologically, a far more nuanced position and then the presentation of these as Calvinist doctrine.
And yet you Catholics go absolutely batcrap when a Protestant gets on here and accuses you of worshiping Mary.
And yet you Catholics go absolutely batcrap when a Protestant gets on here and accuses you of worshiping Mary.
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RobHom
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I didn’t think we were… I thought you asked a question. I thought I was responding to it…
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CHESTERTONRULES
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You didn’t answer my question.
Please explain how the OP misrepresents or distorts Calvin’s dogma.
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RobHom
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I disagree. A single “gut feeling”…can cause a decision, or prevent one. Random deviation…that’s not something I would consider as its just about the same as rolling dice and using them to make the decision for you. I don’t think we are stuck anywhere. I think some of us try to make way more of it than it is.
We can take each and every bit of knowledge and experience as well as feelings that we possess and use them to form a decision, but yet, even while we are certain that we know what we should decide (the correct decision) we have the absolute God given ability to do the opposite and make a decision that is wrong. Maybe the confusion about “in spite” could have been better worded…as “to make choices to or benefit or to our detriment”. No matter how many ways we twist it, human nature as created by God has infinite sides to it, in that no two people are alike, and not each and every one will react to the same stimuli exactly the same, any more than they will respond to the same situations requiring decisions…some will make good decisions, others will not.
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Steadfast
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It distorts it by reducing it to a set of conclusions that do no justice to what is actually a very complex and nuanced system of thought.
This is especially distorting since the intention in doing so is so clearly to discredit and demonize.
And yet, again, when Protestants do this with your doctrine you go bananas.
I just find that a bit ironic.
And hypocritical.
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sandusky
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I searched the words “zero choice” and they don’t appear anywhere in the text you’ve linked.
Can you explain their absence?
I agree, if God doesn’t predestine, no one would be saved.
Catholic predestination teaches the same thing: predestination is free of every merit.
The elect will choose heaven.
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RobHom
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Consider this:
A man has lost his job. He is unemployed for weeks, his money is gone, his family is starving, there is no work, there is no help available. He knows where he can find food. He knows that as a Christian, or even as a Jew…the Commandment is “Thou shalt not steal”. He is a believer in God. Now…he has a decision: Feed his family or not.
Depending on who he is…he may or may not steal food to feed his family. He may beg or plead for the food. He may offer to work for the food. But that is his decision. He will make that decision based on what he thinks, feels, needs, and his concerns.
A man breaks into a house, he murders two children in their beds with a knife, the father hears noise, he gets a gun out of his nightstand…he goes to check on the children, enters the room, sees the children dead, sees the murderer holding the knife dripping with blood. He has his loaded pistol. What does he do?
As a Christian or Jew, he knows the Commandment “Thou shalt not murder”… he also knows that “Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord”…but on an earthly level…he knows that he can kill the intruder who has murdered his children, and there is little likelihood that he will be charged for anything, and even if he was, it would be extremely difficult to find the jury to convict him.
What does he do? He does exactly what he thinks is appropriate…because God gave him the ability to reason and make decisions. He can inject all the emotion he wants into the decision, or he can reject it, or he can combine bloodlust for vengeance with reason and still kill the murderer. Or he can subdue him with the gun, wounding him or whatever and let the courts decide. Either way…its his decision.
Possibly those might be considered extreme cases, but they are valid.
A man has lost his job. He is unemployed for weeks, his money is gone, his family is starving, there is no work, there is no help available. He knows where he can find food. He knows that as a Christian, or even as a Jew…the Commandment is “Thou shalt not steal”. He is a believer in God. Now…he has a decision: Feed his family or not.
Depending on who he is…he may or may not steal food to feed his family. He may beg or plead for the food. He may offer to work for the food. But that is his decision. He will make that decision based on what he thinks, feels, needs, and his concerns.
A man breaks into a house, he murders two children in their beds with a knife, the father hears noise, he gets a gun out of his nightstand…he goes to check on the children, enters the room, sees the children dead, sees the murderer holding the knife dripping with blood. He has his loaded pistol. What does he do?
As a Christian or Jew, he knows the Commandment “Thou shalt not murder”… he also knows that “Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord”…but on an earthly level…he knows that he can kill the intruder who has murdered his children, and there is little likelihood that he will be charged for anything, and even if he was, it would be extremely difficult to find the jury to convict him.
What does he do? He does exactly what he thinks is appropriate…because God gave him the ability to reason and make decisions. He can inject all the emotion he wants into the decision, or he can reject it, or he can combine bloodlust for vengeance with reason and still kill the murderer. Or he can subdue him with the gun, wounding him or whatever and let the courts decide. Either way…its his decision.
Possibly those might be considered extreme cases, but they are valid.
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a_mirror_dimly
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Ok, so you have this “gut feeling”. However, sometimes you act on it, and sometimes you don’t. What determines whether you act on that gut instinct?
Ok, but this again gets to my point. If we sometimes follow all our knowledge and experience tells us to do and sometimes we do not, isn’t our behavior just arbitrary? Is that what free will is, at random intervals simply doing the opposite of what we should do? It seems that randomness is the only alternative to determinism, for if there was some way of predicting based on the the (name removed by moderator)uts whether we would reverse our decision, then that decision is still deterministic.
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sandusky
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All men who are given the opportunity to hear the Gospel, have the opportunity to either embrace it, or reject it.
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sandusky
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Calvinism doesn’t deny free-will.
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CHESTERTONRULES
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You still haven’t expressed anything about the OP that is inaccurate.
My purpose is to discredit Calvinism, so on this we agree.
I think it is a dangerous heresy and it has hurt someone very close to me.
I post the cold hard truth about Calvinism so others can see the dangers.
If you can’t tell me how my post is inaccurate, then I’ll assume that it is accurate but that you don’t like the truth to be so boldly stated.
I’ll welcome any constructive criticisms if any are offered.
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