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RobHom
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- Pity neither desired or necessary.
- Somehow I doubt that, or you didn’t understand it.
- Not my fault.
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RobHom
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Geee, where have you been all these times when the non-Catholics constantly tell us that we worship idols, worship Mary, worship the Pope, etc, etc ad infinitum?? Lets say for the fun of it…and since you don’t have a dog in this fight, how does that work. I pulled what I have posted off of a Calvinist site, and posted the source and C & P’d the info…and its clear to read what it says…so how can they deny what they are supposed to believe when its right there in black and white?
calvinistcorner.com/predestination.htm
Predestination is the doctrine that God alone chooses (elects) who is saved. He makes His choice independent of any quality or condition in sinful man. He does not look into a person and recognize something good nor does He look into the future to see who would choose Him. He elects people to salvation purely on the basis of His good pleasure. Those not elected are not saved. He does this because He is sovereign; that is, He has the absolute authority, right, and ability to do with His creation as He pleases. He has the right to elect some to salvation and let all the rest go their natural way: to hell. This is predestination.
More:
Man is sinful. He does not become a sinner by sinning. He sins because he is a sinner. He is depraved, which means that sin has corrupted all that he is: mind, soul, spirit, emotions, and body. Man is so engulfed in sin, so thoroughly touched by it, that there is nothing in him that merits or enables salvation. He, therefore, is born into a state of condemnation: ".
More… and more on that link.
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sandusky
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As with Catholic Predestination.
As with Catholic Predestination.
As with Catholic Predestination.
Not true.
As with Catholic Predestination.
As with Catholic Predestination.
As with Catholic Predestination.
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Reformed
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Have fun studying.
monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=john+calvin&B1=Go
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monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=john+calvin&B1=Go
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CHESTERTONRULES
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CHESTERTONRULES
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Here’s the big difference in Catholicism:
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
but also:
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:
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CHESTERTONRULES
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sandusky
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We don’t believe the same thing concerning justification; however, I’m talking about predestination, not justification.
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Men must freely respond.
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CHESTERTONRULES
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Calvinists teach that man is unable to respond.
Since Calvinists believe man is incapable of responding to God’s offer of salvation, they presume that God enlightens only those who are elect with a supernatural understanding that is withheld from the non-elect. Without this illumination, or infusion of understanding, which God gives or withholds according to His choice, man cannot respond to God.
pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin01.html
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sandusky
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So does the Scripture, and your church.
I believe it was Pelagian who said men could respond.
That’s what the Scripture says as well—God regenerates, or causes the reprobate, who is dead in sins and trespasses, to be “born-again” (Eph 2:1ff; Col 2:13, 1 Pet 1:3).
And Christ, Himself, says that "no one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him…" (Jn 6:44).
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CHESTERTONRULES
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That is not what scripture teaches, nor is it what the Catholic Church teaches:So does the Scripture, and your church.
I believe it was Pelagian who said men could respond.
That’s what the Scripture says as well—God regenerates, or causes the reprobate, who is dead in sins and trespasses, to be “born-again” (Eph 2:1ff; Col 2:13, 1 Pet 1:3).
And Christ, Himself, says that ”no one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him…” (Jn 6:44).
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy.
John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, **will draw all people to myself.**John 12:31-32
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32
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sandusky
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That’s what the Scriptures, Calvin, and your church teach: man cannot respond to God, apart from God’s grace.
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CHESTERTONRULES
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The difference is that you believe that God withholds his grace from some men.That’s what the Scriptures, Calvin, and your church teach: man cannot respond to God, apart from God’s grace.
That’s not what the bible teaches nor is it what the Catholic Church teaches:
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy.
John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, **will draw all people **to myself.John 12:31-32
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to** justification and life for all.** Rom. 5:18
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32
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SyCarl
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While I am not a Calvinist, I would suggest that what Thomas Aquinas says about predestination in Summa Theologica is quite interesting. It can be found in Part 1, Question 23. Article 3 is notable in that it deals with whether God reprobates anyone.
ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.FP.ii.FP_Q23.html
ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.FP.ii.FP_Q23.html
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sandusky
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That is what the Bible teaches.
Mt 1:21 says "…you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
Jesus Himself says, "no one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him…"
It’s not difficult to conclude that those who are eternally damned are neither given to the Son by the Father, nor does He draw them to the Son (cf Jn 6:39).
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CHESTERTONRULES
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Those verses don’t change the fact that the bible says Jesus will draw all people to himself and that Jesus died for the whole world.
I agree with these verses.
When Jesus talks of his people, he is referring to his sheep who hear his voice AND follow his will.
God draws all men to Jesus, but some refuse to believe.
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CHESTERTONRULES
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Thomism is acceptable to hold as a Catholic.
However, I prefer Molinism:
“The most famous distinctive in Molinism is its affirmation that God has middle knowledge (scienta media). Molinism holds that God’s knowledge consists of three logical moments. These “moments” of knowledge are not to be thought of as chronological; rather they are to be understood as “logical.” In other words, one moment does not come before another moment in time, rather one moment is logically prior to the other moments. The Molinist differentiates between three different moments of knowledge which are respectively called natural knowledge, middle knowledge and free knowledge.”[3]
Natural Knowledge – This is God’s knowledge of all necessary and all possible truths. In this “moment” God knows every possible combination of causes and effects. He also knows all the truths of logic and all moral truths.
Middle Knowledge – This is God’s knowledge of what a free creature would do in any given circumstance. This includes knowledge of what philosophers call counterfactuals.
Free Knowledge – This is God’s knowledge of what He freely decided to create. God’s free knowledge is His knowledge of the actual world as it is.
theopedia.com/Molinism
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sandusky
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Define “all.”
Clearly in Jn 17, Jesus doesn’t pray for everyone, but only those given to Him by the Father, and those who, in the future, will hear the words of the apostles, and believe.
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CHESTERTONRULES
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In John 17 Jesus is praying for his disciples when he refers to those given to him by the father.
He places no limit on who will believe in him through their message.
You know what ALL means:
John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.John 12:31-32
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32
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