The Gospel of John and the Synoptics

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Case in point: The writer for John changed the date of Jesus crucifixion to the day*before *the passover meal instead of the day after, as Mark (the gospel considered most accurate and the one Matthew and Luke used as a base) has it written.
That’s two days difference.
It was the day of Passover and the day before Passover. It’s only one days difference (though they all agree it was Friday). Anyway, I’ve seen increased leanings over the last few years for John’s timeline and Jesus being crucified on the Day of Preparation. It makes more sense in the social context, the priests not wanting to defile themselves on that day by entering Pilate’s court, the idea of getting the bodies down before the celebration of Passover begins, carrying out the executions prior to the Passover so they don’t interfere with the celebration (and to head off any political/revolutionary acts that might coincide with the Passover celebration). This doesn’t necessarily mean that the synoptics are in error. The Passover tradition with the Last Supper is strong. Jesus was instituting a new Passover meal, as Christian theology has understood, and it appears that he did celebrate early. The Passover symbology and overtones for the Holy Thursday meal were obvious and stressed in tradition, so that in the telling of the synoptic traditions this became a Passover meal (and tied with the Jewish day of Passover). Meanwhile, John keeps to a more accurate chronology and ties together Jesus’ sacrifice with the slaughtering of the lambs for the Passover.
 
PNEUMA;14149389:
Mark says the people and the Apostles didn’t understand Jesus. Obviously Mark himself didn’t understand Jesus. They all had the wrong picture and did not see the kingdom of God.

John 3:3
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God"The Apostles did not understand Jesus till they were born again, which is what happened at Pentecost. Acts 2: right after the tongues of fire, they went out and began preaching boldly. Three thousand converts that day.
Mark was obviously not among them.
 
PNEUMA;14149728:
Well, he didn’t see him as the “Lamb of God”

They all thought he was supposed to be a king in Jerusalem, they all thought that was his mission. They even thought so after the resurrection.
Weren’t all the Gospels written after the Resurrection? Weren’t they in fact written after Pentecost? How then could those who wrote them not know, at the time they wrote, that Jesus was the Lamb of God?
Because it wasn’t yet revealed to them.
 
Just because a person does not use the term “Lamb of God” does not mean they do not look at Jesus as the Lamb of God.
Mark displays the Passover Meal with Jesus saying, “Take ye. This is my body,” and also giving them the chalice and them drinking.

That is what you do with the Lamb of God - you eat his flesh and drink his blood as your participation in the covenant - the Lamb gives up his life into the Father, and gives his Flesh and Blood into his people, so that they participate in his resurrection.

Mark shows he knows the Lamb of God because he shows the new Passover Sacrifice and shows the death and resurrection of the Lamb. You do not need to say the words if you portray an image of the Lamb of God, which Mark did very clearly.
 
Just because a person does not use the term “Lamb of God” does not mean they do not look at Jesus as the Lamb of God.
Mark displays the Passover Meal with Jesus saying, “Take ye. This is my body,” and also giving them the chalice and them drinking.

That is what you do with the Lamb of God - you eat his flesh and drink his blood as your participation in the covenant - the Lamb gives up his life into the Father, and gives his Flesh and Blood into his people, so that they participate in his resurrection.

Mark shows he knows the Lamb of God because he shows the new Passover Sacrifice and shows the death and resurrection of the Lamb. You do not need to say the words if you portray an image of the Lamb of God, which Mark did very clearly.
I don’t think any of this was revealed to him. I think Mark (as Paul in some of his letters) thought the resurrection was a future event. Not something he could participate in there and then.

John has clearly gone through this, as has Paul in Ephesians, Galatians and other letters.
 
What I find odd is that John – the only Gospel author to have witnessed the Transfiguration – is the only one who didn’t write about it. It seems especially odd if John’s Gospel is seen as a work of high Christology.
 
What I find odd is that John – the only Gospel author to have witnessed the Transfiguration – is the only one who didn’t write about it. It seems especially odd if John’s Gospel is seen as a work of high Christology.
Maybe the beloved disciple (the gospel writer) isn’t John ?
 
Many top NT scholars (including prof of Religious Studies at Yale, Dale Martin) will tell you that the Gospel called John is more theological in nature and intent, while the others are trying to be more historical/biographical.
The problem is with this view is that its really outdated. It used to be the case in the 19th century that John’s gospel was dismissed as the ‘unhistorical’ gospel when compared to the more down-to-earth synoptics. Reason for this being the complex theology of the gospel and its portrait of a Jesus who makes long speeches and overtly claims divinity. It was given lip service as the ‘mystic’, ‘theological’ gospel, but practically, many historical Jesus scholars generally did not take it seriously as a historical source.

Now scholars did notice certain elements within the gospel that are just as plausibly historical, if not more than, the things found in the synoptics, but they were puzzled as to why these ‘historical’ elements were mixed in with theological reflections and long discourses, with the seams being kind of visible. To them, all these layers of theology spoiled the historical core. As a result, some went so far as to make harsh ad hominem accusations against John the author: they accused him of not being able to write, of ‘spoiling’ the history by adding in things, of being a simpleton, even of being senile.

However, there’s a reappraisal of the gospel that’s going on in certain segments of academia these days. Some recent scholars have point out that when you look closely at John’s gospel, you’d notice that behind all that developed theology and long speeches that put all the earlier academics off, the gospel actually contains more historical verisimilitude and internal consistency when you compare it to the supposedly more ‘historically-accurate’ gospels of Mark or Matthew of Luke.

John, for instance, is the only gospel that has a consistent, linear timeline, unlike the episodic synoptics which are arranged somewhat artificially and even skip all over the place at times. In addition, John’s knowledge and representation of the topography of Jerusalem and Judaea in general, as well as the political situation there is apparently more superior and more realistic than that of the synoptics. In fact, when it comes to certain details about Jesus’ passion - His arrest, the hearing before the high priest, the day of Jesus’ crucifixion - John’s narrative seems to be the more historically plausible compared to the synoptic version of the events.

(For example, the Pool of Bethesda in John 5. John’s gospel is our only ancient 1st century source that mentions the place, which to some people back in the 19th century meant that the pool did not exist in real life, that it was just a figment of John’s fertile imagination. Turns out that such a pool did exist in 1st century Jerusalem.)
Case in point: The writer for John changed the date of Jesus crucifixion to the day*before *the passover meal instead of the day after, as Mark (the gospel considered most accurate and the one Matthew and Luke used as a base) has it written.
That’s two days difference.
This, it seems, was so that the writer of John could create the “lamb of God” description and compare Jesus to the lambs being slaughtered for the meal at the same time.
It was a clever, dramatic bit of writing and I tip my hat at the creativity of the author of John on that note, and others.
Have you thought about the other possibility: that it was John who preserved the historical detail and his ‘lamb of God’ theology was informed by this? I mean, on the same token we could say that the synoptics have also got a plausible theological reason/alibi to tinker with the chronology: the Christian Eucharist being the new Passover meal.
 
Also, in general, John as you know is estimated to have been written about 65 years after the crucifixion…so the many decades of time post-events and the evolution of Christianity and how Jesus’ followers were viewing him would also account for how different it is than the earlier ones.
Something I wrote a while back might be of relevance here too:

Here’s a thing to remember: we should throw away our modern definition of ‘history’ when it comes to John’s gospel. Sure, just as I noted earlier, John’s gospel probably has the most verisimilitude of the four gospels. In that respect, John is ‘historical’ (or at least ‘historically-authentic / plausible’) in the modern sense.

But then again, another thing about the gospel is that the voice of the author is not clearly distinguishable from the voice of Jesus or even from John the Baptist. All three of them speak in the same voice, so that it’s hard to tell precisely where Jesus’ or John the Baptist’s actual, ‘historical’ speech ends and where John the Evangelist’s ruminations begins. This is especially true if you consider how the original gospel would have been written: without any quotation marks or any kind of punctuation. (John 3 is a prime example of this phenomenon. Is John 3:16-17 supposed to be Jesus’ actual words to Nicodemus? Or is it actually the narrator speaking? We can’t tell, because the flow is smooth.)

A modern historian looking at this would (and did) accuse John the Evangelist of ‘putting words into Jesus’ mouth’. For someone who is only interested in the dry, bare facts, John has so buried whatever ‘historical’ there is into layers and layers of theology and reflection. The assumption is that only the ‘historical’ core is good and of any worth; the rest are to be rejected and cast away as worthless garbage.

But John would not have seen it that way; and for that matter, I believe we Christians shouldn’t either. I think the key to understanding his gospel is in chapter 16:

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit, who will teach the disciples everything and “guide [them] into all the truth.” We know the disciples and the early Christians believed that the risen Jesus still continued to be in touch with them via the Spirit (the Ascension simply ‘removed Him from their sight’ - it’s not like after the Ascension Jesus no longer had anything for His disciples!); the Spirit of Jesus continued to teach them, to reveal things to them that they never saw while Jesus was still with them in the flesh.

That’s why I really like to view John as the story of Jesus as filtered through John looking back with the gift of hindsight / the revelation of the Spirit. John wasn’t telling just ‘the bare facts’, nor is he interested in that. His story of Jesus, you might say, transcends ‘history’ and ‘fact’. He’s not so much a ‘reporter’ as he was a ‘storyteller’ and an ‘evangelist’.​
 
(Continued)

In fact, it doesn’t take a scholar to see this. Let’s say for example John’s story of the cleansing of the Temple. Were John just reporting the ‘facts’, we should expect the story to simply go on like this:

In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there.
And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables. And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.”
So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?”
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”

No fuss - just a dry report about ‘what happened’. Something that’ll make modern Westerners happy. But that’s not how John writes. Instead:

In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there.
And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.
And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.”
His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for your house will consume me.”
So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?”
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?”
But he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.

Did Jesus really make those long speeches? Did He really speak those discourses as written word-for-word historically? I’ll be frank. Without any time machine or video footage, we can’t 100% say “yes.” For all we know, the speeches could have been a great deal shorter historically. 😃 But then again, we could say that John’s purpose is not so much to jot down what Jesus would have actually said word-for-word as if he’s writing a script or news report, but the deeper meaning behind those words that John (thanks to the Holy Spirit) had now realized. Just because John would not have transcribed those discourses as Jesus spoke them historically that doesn’t make the contents “false;” if anything, now that the deeper meaning behind them is revealed I’d say it makes them more ‘true’.

===

This is part of a post I made a while ago. This might be relevant in a way to the topic.

The human mind doesn’t work like a video recorder that plays back an exact replica of events remembered, contrary to popular belief. Memories are actually reconstructed like a puzzle rather than played back like a video each time we recall them. And inevitably there’s going to be some ‘rearrangement’ along the way; some bits are lost, and some ‘foreign’ bits - which properly don’t ‘belong’ there - will be added. In fact, as per some studies, you’re lucky if even 50% of your memories actually represent exactly what happened. Some people will use expressions like, “I remember clearly that…” or “I remember it just like yesterday,” but those actually aren’t completely true. Inevitably one’s ‘memory’ of a given event is just our mind’s reconstruction of bits and pieces, filtered through our current state. Because our view of the world is constantly changing everyday, our minds don’t reconstruct those memories perfectly. Some people have exceptional memories and can ‘reconstruct’ things better than others, but even their recollections fall short of 100%. There’s even the idea of our brains implanting 'false memories. That may kinda sound distressing to some people, but that’s just how our brain works; nothing wrong there, since there’s nothing we can do.

In other words, do not blame John if his memory of Jesus is ‘contaminated’ / ‘enriched’ (depending on your POV) with the knowledge and revelation that he had received during all those years in between. He’s not a robot nor a tape recorder; he was a living human being.​
 
Well, of course. They have God as their source! 😉

My memory isn’t so great but I recall that most scholars think Mark was written first, then Matthew and Luke used Mark and a now lost sayings gospel called Q to write their gospels. They also used other sources called M and L.
There’s a bundle of theories as to the exact relationship between the gospels. What you describe is the so-called two-source hypothesis. Mark is the first gospel, Matthew and Luke both used Mark and a third document called Q (short for Quelle, German for ‘source’, which is in turn short for Logienquelle ‘sayings (logia in Greek) source’) - which would account for the material that both Matthew and Luke share that are not found in Mark. While Matthew and Luke both used Q, the theory proposes that they did not know each other’s gospels; one was writing independently of the other, which would explain why Mathew has material unique to his gospel (M) that is different from that of Luke’s (L), such as the birth narratives and the genealogy of Jesus.



Admittedly, this is the default theory among most scholars nowadays, but a few have proposed certain alternatives. I’ll list two.

(1) One alternative theory proposes that Matthew was written first, followed by Luke, and that Mark is an abridgment of these two gospels. There is no Q or any other extrabiblical document in this theory. This is the so-called or Griesbach hypothesis****Griesbach-Farmer hypothesis, after the German scholar and pastor who first thought of it in the 18th century, Johann Jakob Griesbach, and the man who revived this theory in the mid-1960s, William Farmer, or simply the two-gospel hypothesis. (Trivia: the Griesbach theory is actually older than the two-source hypothesis. Before the two-source hypothesis was properly formulated - mid-19th century - this theory was actually the default for Protestant biblical scholars.)



Among Catholic circles, you might sometimes see a version of this theory referred to as the Clementine hypothesis, so called because some people have seen a possible precursor to this theory in the writings of the 3rd century Church Father Clement of Alexandria; Clement ascribes this to “a tradition of the primitive elders.” (Granted, it has recently been argued that we’ve been translating Clement wrong all this time and that he doesn’t actually refer to the order of the writing of the gospels but to something else.) Aside from this supposed reference from Clement, some Catholic adherents have also attempted to find vestiges of a proto-Griesbach theory among the writings of other Church Fathers, but if you’ll ask me, compared to the extract from Clement these other supposed references aren’t totally convincing.

(3) The so-called Farrer-Goulder theory - after Austin Farrer and his student Michael Goulder, who proposed and refined / popularized the hypothesis respectively - dispenses with Q while keeping Markan priority, the idea that Mark was the first gospel to be written among the synoptics. The main difference between this theory and the two-source hypothesis is that this theory thinks that Luke did have an awareness of and made use of Matthew’s gospel; the material supposedly derived from Q could simply be explained as something that Luke had gotten from his use of Matthew.



This second theory is probably the least well-known of the three, even among scholars. The Griesbach-Farmer theory is often seen to be the only real competitor against the two-source hypothesis nowadays in terms of adherents and publicity, at least in America; by contrast, this theory was, until recently, mostly relegated to British scholars, specifically among a small clique connected with either Farrer or Goulder. (For the record, during the 1980s there was apparently a huge skepticism surrounding Q among a generation of Oxford-based scholars; quite ironic, since it was in early 1900s Oxford that the two-source hypothesis as we know it today developed in its current form.)
 
Mark was obviously not among them.
Do you claim that mark was not present in the Upper room during Pentecost? On what grounds?
Because it wasn’t yet revealed to them.
The Gospels were committed to writing in the form we received them, after Pentecost. So yes, it was revealed to them by that time.
 
I don’t think any of this was revealed to him. I think Mark (as Paul in some of his letters) thought the resurrection was a future event. Not something he could participate in there and then.

John has clearly gone through this, as has Paul in Ephesians, Galatians and other letters.
Mark was one of the Twelve. Christ came to the Twelve while they were gathered together, and proved to them that He was resurrected. John 20: 19-23.
And again: John 20: 26-29.

All the Evangelists (and all the Apostles) knew Christ had already been resurrected. The future resurrection they believed in was the General Resurrection. The one in which we will all share.
 
Mark was one of the Twelve. Christ came to the Twelve while they were gathered together, and proved to them that He was resurrected. John 20: 19-23.
And again: John 20: 26-29.

All the Evangelists (and all the Apostles) knew Christ had already been resurrected. The future resurrection they believed in was the General Resurrection. The one in which we will all share.
No, Mark was not one of the Twelve and Mark was not born again (resurrected with Christ) into the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 2:4 “God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”
 
Saint Mark was not one of the Twelve, but he was a disciple of Peter and possibly a follower of Jesus, if not in the inner circle. He was the author of a gospel, and certainly a Christian. He was “born again.” The only thing required to be born again is to be baptized Christian, to die and be regenerated in Christ.
 
Saint Mark was not one of the Twelve, but he was a disciple of Peter and possibly a follower of Jesus, if not in the inner circle. He was the author of a gospel, and certainly a Christian. He was “born again.” The only thing required to be born again is to be baptized Christian, to die and be regenerated in Christ.
It’s not enough to baptized with water to be born again.

If he had been born again he would have both seen and entered the kingdom of God.

John 3:3 “Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
 
It’s not enough to baptized with water to be born again.

If he had been born again he would have both seen and entered the kingdom of God.

John 3:3 “Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”
Well, two things, I suppose. No, make that three. The third thought I’ll state first: Christian baptism is not simple water. It’s water and spirit. Next, is there any immediacy implied there? You can be born again now, which makes you eligible for the kingdom of God later. But really, that’s a non-issue, because . . . the Church is part of the kingdom of God. Baptism is initiation into it, dying to self, entering the tomb, and rising again in Christ, the onset of the Holy Spirit. It’s how the Church has always understood baptism. You rise up immediately in Christ and part of his kingdom which is mystically veiled now but will be fully unveiled in all its glory when heaven and earth are made new, as we were made new in Christ in baptism, as the earth was made clean by the Flood.
 
Well, two things, I suppose. No, make that three. The third thought I’ll state first: Christian baptism is not simple water. It’s water and spirit. Next, is there any immediacy implied there? You can be born again now, which makes you eligible for the kingdom of God later. But really, that’s a non-issue, because . . . the Church is part of the kingdom of God. Baptism is initiation into it, dying to self, entering the tomb, and rising again in Christ, the onset of the Holy Spirit. It’s how the Church has always understood baptism. You rise up immediately in Christ and part of his kingdom which is mystically veiled now but will be fully unveiled in all its glory when heaven and earth are made new, as we were made new in Christ in baptism, as the earth was made clean by the Flood.
Yes there is immediacy,

Ephesians 2:4 “God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”

The kingdom of God/the kingdom of heaven/the rule of God/the throne of God was a present reality to Paul, when he wrote to the Ephesians.

The very first Christians didn’t understand God’s new kingdom. They thought Jesus was supposed to be a king in Jerusalem like king David. They didn’t understand he would ascend to God’s throne and all the brothers with him.
 
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