The "Great Apostasy": History or Fiction?

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One claim many LDS make that seems problematic to me is this (and I think LDS are the only ones who hold this particular belief)…

That the church fell into apostasy shortly after the death of the last Apostle. There are other LDS who believe that the church didn’t fall into complete apostasy until later, however, they can’t give a p(name removed by moderator)ointed date or even necessarily a timeframe. Here’s where it gets me…If you push enough and ask the right questions you will find out that they believe that John never died. That Jesus told him that he would live until Jesus returned. SO…how could there have been a complete apostasy after the death of the last Apostle if the last Apostle NEVER DIED???

Now ask them where John is and they have no idea. The common response is “somewhere furthering the kingdom”. So we’re supposed to believe that there is some 2,000 year old man walking around somewhere that none of us know about?!?!? And I’m curious, if John was still alive and noticed that the church was falling into apostasy, why not come out and take control of the church and put it back on track?
 
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tkdnick:
One claim many LDS make that seems problematic to me is this (and I think LDS are the only ones who hold this particular belief)…

That the church fell into apostasy shortly after the death of the last Apostle. There are other LDS who believe that the church didn’t fall into complete apostasy until later, however, they can’t give a p(name removed by moderator)ointed date or even necessarily a timeframe. Here’s where it gets me…If you push enough and ask the right questions you will find out that they believe that John never died. That Jesus told him that he would live until Jesus returned. SO…how could there have been a complete apostasy after the death of the last Apostle if the last Apostle NEVER DIED???

Now ask them where John is and they have no idea. The common response is “somewhere furthering the kingdom”. So we’re supposed to believe that there is some 2,000 year old man walking around somewhere that none of us know about?!?!? And I’m curious, if John was still alive and noticed that the church was falling into apostasy, why not come out and take control of the church and put it back on track?
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You are developing some interesting thoughts. I have one that is not quite on topic. This person belonged to the Baptist Fundamentalists and she claimed that the Church was started by John the Bapist. It was interesting to watch the hopping around and the denials that came out about making this statement. I need to do some more work on the subject but I think they also claim a time of apostasy around Constantine’s era. He is the favourite bashing object.

Maggie
 
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MaggieOH:
You are developing some interesting thoughts. I have one that is not quite on topic. This person belonged to the Baptist Fundamentalists and she claimed that the Church was started by John the Bapist. It was interesting to watch the hopping around and the denials that came out about making this statement. I need to do some more work on the subject but I think they also claim a time of apostasy around Constantine’s era. He is the favourite bashing object.

Maggie
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Yeah Constantine seems to be like the common man to pin everything on. They actually said that John the Baptist started the church? Even with Peter being so prominent in the NT?
 
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tkdnick:
Yeah Constantine seems to be like the common man to pin everything on. They actually said that John the Baptist started the church? Even with Peter being so prominent in the NT?
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Yep, and then the person denied that she said it. :). Not only that she claimed that the Church existed at the Last Supper because they sang Hymns (note not the Psalms that are sung at every Passover) and then Jesus went outside. There was one very small detail that anyone who makes that claim seems to forget - the Baptist had his head chopped off.😃

Maggie
 
Church Militant:
Please stay on topic guys…this is not about the reformation, nor about Papal apologies. Did the “Great Apostasy” really occur? Does ANYONE have verifiable unbiased sources that say that it did?
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/smiliec.gif
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Yes.
Hebrews 10:9-29 is a verifiable / unbiased MAP .
1)…v:9)…Jesus set the New Covenant in place.
2)…v:20)…“The new living path”…
3)…v:24)…We must not absent ourselves from THE MASS.
4)…v:26)…there remains no further sacrifice for sin.
5)…v:29)…insults the Holy Spirit.

2Thess.2:10…If people do not LOVE THE TRUTH… God sends them a deceiving spirit …that leads them to believe a lie…and be condemned.

The TRUTH IS; The Eucharistic Body and Blood at the Altar is
“For God so loved the world, that he GAVE
his only begotten Son…that they may have ETERNAL LIFE.”

“All of you must drink this …this is my blood… of The New Covenant…for the forgiveness of sins.”

People are drawn into apostacy by abandoning the THE OFFER that makes them HOLY.(Mt.13:41 / 18:6)

and so must carry their guilt for all eternity.(Mk.3:29)

I realize, of course, this may be just…" my interpretation of scripture"…but never the less,
there is the scripture…

May the Holy Spirit give DISCERNMENT.

gusano
 
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gusano:
Yes.
Hebrews 10:9-29 is a verifiable / unbiased MAP .
1)…v:9)…Jesus set the New Covenant in place.
2)…v:20)…“The new living path”…
3)…v:24)…We must not absent ourselves from THE MASS.
4)…v:26)…there remains no further sacrifice for sin.
5)…v:29)…insults the Holy Spirit.

2Thess.2:10…If people do not LOVE THE TRUTH… God sends them a deceiving spirit …that leads them to believe a lie…and be condemned.

The TRUTH IS; The Eucharistic Body and Blood at the Altar is
“For God so loved the world, that he GAVE
his only begotten Son…that they may have ETERNAL LIFE.”

“All of you must drink this …this is my blood… of The New Covenant…for the forgiveness of sins.”

People are drawn into apostacy by abandoning the THE OFFER that makes them HOLY.(Mt.13:41 / 18:6)

and so must carry their guilt for all eternity.(Mk.3:29)

I realize, of course, this may be just…" my interpretation of scripture"…but never the less,
there is the scripture…

May the Holy Spirit give DISCERNMENT.

gusano
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your sources point to the apostasy of some but not to the Great Apostasy as claimed by the Mormons, JWs and others. What Michael is looking for is documentary proof that what Joseph Smith and others claimed actually happened.

Maggie
 
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MaggieOH:
your sources point to the apostasy of some but not to the Great Apostasy as claimed by the Mormons, JWs and others. What Michael is looking for is documentary proof that what Joseph Smith and others claimed actually happened.

Maggie
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If I might throw this out real quickly…My LDS with whom I will be discussing this very topic has stated that Amos, Acts, and 2 Thessalonians all prophesy a Great Apostasy. It will take me some time to find the exact verses, but those were 3 that she threw at me the other day.
 
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tkdnick:
One claim many LDS make that seems problematic to me is this (and I think LDS are the only ones who hold this particular belief)…

That the church fell into apostasy shortly after the death of the last Apostle. There are other LDS who believe that the church didn’t fall into complete apostasy until later, however, they can’t give a p(name removed by moderator)ointed date or even necessarily a timeframe. Here’s where it gets me…If you push enough and ask the right questions you will find out that they believe that John never died. That Jesus told him that he would live until Jesus returned. SO…how could there have been a complete apostasy after the death of the last Apostle if the last Apostle NEVER DIED???

Now ask them where John is and they have no idea. The common response is “somewhere furthering the kingdom”. So we’re supposed to believe that there is some 2,000 year old man walking around somewhere that none of us know about?!?!? And I’m curious, if John was still alive and noticed that the church was falling into apostasy, why not come out and take control of the church and put it back on track?
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I’ve heard that too and there is a scripture that does point out something mysterious concerning John the apostle but I’m inclined to think it is about his role as revelator. When one looks at the extreme anxieties attached to persecution maybe he lived so long for that purpose, to prevent apostacy.
 
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MaggieOH:
your sources point to the apostasy of some but not to the Great Apostasy as claimed by the Mormons, JWs and others. What Michael is looking for is documentary proof that what Joseph Smith and others claimed actually happened.

Maggie
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In that case,… I believe there is no other apostasy…
unless one wants to build on what anyeone makes up.
😃

It could also be a result of not knowing exactly what “apostasy” is.

If one divorces oneself FROM the means of forgiveness set in place by Christ, that is apostacy. (Heb.10:9- 29)

if one removes oneself FROM the “made-up teachings of men”
they could call it, (from their perspective), apostacy, but it isn’t.
 
Keep in mind that the Great Apostasy refers only to an apostasy from the true Church: the Holy Catholic Church.

Apostasy from Mormonism, JW’s, SDA’s or other Protestant groups don’t count. (They are already in apostasy/heresy.)

When the Great Apostasy comes, the true Church will only be found within the Catholic Church, no other.
 
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gusano:
In that case,… I believe there is no other apostasy…
unless one wants to build on what anyeone makes up.
😃

It could also be a result of not knowing exactly what “apostasy” is.

If one divorces oneself FROM the means of forgiveness set in place by Christ, that is apostacy. (Heb.10:9- 29)

if one removes oneself FROM the “made-up teachings of men”
they could call it, (from their perspective), apostacy, but it isn’t.
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Apostasy as it is used in Scripture means turning away from God.

Nothing that you quoted comes close to what the Mormons and others call the Great Apostasy.

If you want to discuss what you call apostasy then please do so in another thread because what you believe to be apostasy is not related to this topic.

Maggie
 
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SPH1:
Keep in mind that the Great Apostasy refers only to an apostasy from the true Church: the Holy Catholic Church.

Apostasy from Mormonism, JW’s, SDA’s or other Protestant groups don’t count. (They are already in apostasy/heresy.)

When the Great Apostasy comes, the true Church will only be found within the Catholic Church, no other.
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Please explain why they don’t count. 🙂
 
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SPH1:
Keep in mind that the Great Apostasy refers only to an apostasy from the true Church: the Holy Catholic Church.

Apostasy from Mormonism, JW’s, SDA’s or other Protestant groups don’t count. (They are already in apostasy/heresy.)

When the Great Apostasy comes, the true Church will only be found within the Catholic Church, no other.
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However, this is not addressing the original question. We are not talking about personal apostasy here. We are talking about a claim that has been made and whether that claim can be substantiated.

Maggie
 
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MaggieOH:
Apostasy as it is used in Scripture means turning away from God.

Nothing that you quoted comes close to what the Mormons and others call the Great Apostasy.

If you want to discuss what you call apostasy then please do so in another thread because what you believe to be apostasy is not related to this topic.

Maggie
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Maggie,
it appears I may have broken one or more of your rules, I hope you are not offended by that.
are you wanting me to leave this thread ?
and…
what is this topic ?
 
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Benadam:
I’ve heard that too and there is a scripture that does point out something mysterious concerning John the apostle but I’m inclined to think it is about his role as revelator. When one looks at the extreme anxieties attached to persecution maybe he lived so long for that purpose, to prevent apostacy.
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Here’s the only Scripture I have ever been quoted regarding John in John 21:21-22 (KJV):
Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

What they leave out when we talk is the very next verse:
Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
 
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gusano:
Maggie,
it appears I may have broken one or more of your rules, I hope you are not offended by that.
are you wanting me to leave this thread ?
and…
what is this topic ?
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Don’t leave. I seriously doubt Maggie is offended, she is just trying to keep us on topic. Which leads me to our topic. Mormons, JWs, SDAs all believe that at some point there was a complete apostasy from the truths of God. I think most believe it occurred shortly after the death of the Apostles. They all believe that their church is the restoration of the “true religion”. So what we are discussing here is evidences for and against that specific apostasy and subsequent restoration.
 
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gusano:
Maggie,
it appears I may have broken one or more of your rules, I hope you are not offended by that.
are you wanting me to leave this thread ?
and…
what is this topic ?
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Gusano,

why do you say my rules. What is necessary in the thread is to concentrate on the original question about proving or disproving the allegation that the Catholic Church has been corrupted and was in apostasy since the time of Constantine.

The position that I am taking is that the subject concerning modern apostasy as determined by certain people is irrelevant to this subject. What is relevant is discovering and posting the sources for the original claims.

Maggie
 
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tkdnick:
Don’t leave. I seriously doubt Maggie is offended, she is just trying to keep us on topic. Which leads me to our topic. Mormons, JWs, SDAs all believe that at some point there was a complete apostasy from the truths of God. I think most believe it occurred shortly after the death of the Apostles. They all believe that their church is the restoration of the “true religion”. So what we are discussing here is evidences for and against that specific apostasy and subsequent restoration.
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👍 That is precisely correct

Maggie
 
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MaggieOH:
Gusano,

why do you say my rules. What is necessary in the thread is to concentrate on the original question about proving or disproving the allegation that the Catholic Church has been corrupted and was in apostasy since the time of Constantine.

The position that I am taking is that the subject concerning modern apostasy as determined by certain people is irrelevant to this subject. What is relevant is discovering and posting the sources for the original claims.

Maggie
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Thanks tdknick, and MaggieOH,
Now I can participate in the discussion with “SLS”…
(…slightly less stupidity ) 😃

I would say that anyone could prove the allegation… if they could show evidence that the Catholic Church has divorced itself from the EUCHARISTIC LITURGY and everything involving THE NEW COVENANT.

Of cource, there have been apostates …since Judas and many more after him.
"Jesus knew from the start, of course,
the ones who refused to believe,
and the one who would hand him over." John 6:64
 
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