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SPH1
Guest
Because Mormonism, JW’s, SDA’s and the various other Protestant groups are already turned away from God through heresy/apostasy, some perhaps more so than others.Please explain why they don’t count.
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SPH1
Guest
I’m just pointing out that everyone separated from the Holy Catholic Church is already in apostasy/heresy to one degree or another.
The Great Apostasy - which the Church does believe in - properly refers only to an event involving the Holy Catholic Church. Of course, although many Catholics will fall into this final apostasy (which I believe began with the Renaissance/Reformation and will gain greater force through time) many Catholics will be left.
It is the Great Apostasy, not the Total Apostasy. There will not be a Total Apostasy of the Church, Christ has already promised that the Church will endure until the end.
I guess my “contribution” was to point out that our non-Catholic friends are already in an apostasy of sorts, Great or small.
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Benadam
Guest
I’ve had this issue in the “P” file for ponderings since reading this thread and something came to mind that clarifies this issue for me. Christ when refering to the delusion attached to ‘the’ apostacy said that it would be such a strong delusion that even the elect would be fooled by it if that were possible.
This to me makes it clear that the delusion is a means of dividing the elect from the damned. That it is a delusion with a singular character seems to be the sense as well. If this is an historical event, I think in this light it’s impossible for it to have happened yet as it is reserved for the eschatalogical event of the parousia.
This to me makes it clear that the delusion is a means of dividing the elect from the damned. That it is a delusion with a singular character seems to be the sense as well. If this is an historical event, I think in this light it’s impossible for it to have happened yet as it is reserved for the eschatalogical event of the parousia.
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MaggieOH
Guest
Please go back and read post 1 in the thread. The purpose of the thread is not to discuss what has been claimed by those in protest against the Catholic Church in order to legitimize their claims.
Maggie
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gusano
Guest
Now the real question ( 1 ) that we are viewing is whether the Catholic church has lost the heavenly authority or priesthood that it claims. I firmly believe that the Pope John Paul II can correctly trace his line of authority back to the early church. However I question **( 2 )**if this line has electricity running through it?
Hi tsiyon,
How do you pronounce your name ?
I sympathize with you and your questions.
I am a Catholic who at one time did not know what you now question.
You have more grit than I.
at that time I didn’t know and I didn’t care !
But I was drawn back…and all I can say is, in regard to
Q.#( 1 )…When one is properly connected to Christ, through The New Covenant, through The Church…
one finds, knows, and loves that priesthood.
with regard to
Q# ( 2 )…about “electricity”…
it is OK from a distance to wonder those questions, God put them in you.(Acts 17:27)…But I can assure you,
If you search that curiousity,(He embedded in you) …test every spirit, rejoice with the TRUTH,…
as God is drawing you (Jn.6:44, 65)
When one is properly INITIATED into Christ, through The New Covenant, into His Bride the Church…
you have “electricity” running through you and you will discern others who do also…
He has placed on open door before you which no man can shut.
More Power to ya !
gusano
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Pace
Guest
The “Elect” have a choice before them now, here in our own day. It is the choice between the two films Mulholland Drive and The Passion of the Christ . It seems that it must be one or the other of these two movies; there seems to be no middle ground. If we are for one we must be against the other.
And if we are faced with a decision like this in our day, what good does it do us to look into the past at another day?
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MaggieOH
Guest
This has nothing to do with the subject. Please study the issue and then respond. Thank you.
Maggie
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Church_Militant
Guest
The past is VERY important…especially Christian history which shows us what those real New Testament Christians believed and WHY they were willing to lay down their lives for it.
As was suggested above, please check out my initial post and respond to it if you have historical evidence that there was a Great Apostasy just after the last apostle died. My own opinion is that it did not happen and so far no one has offered the slightest evidence that it did. THIS IS IMPORTANT because it then suggests that since the all Christians were Catholics at that point that that same NT church still exists today and has faithfully preserved the NT Christianity. As opposed to the new “doctrines of men” that came into being some 487 years ago during what is now called The Reformation, some of whom have alleged in their writings that such an apostasy did occur.
Pax vobiscum,
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Benadam
Guest
because truth never violates truth. The end meets the beginning, the last will be first and the first will be last. to know the end of a thing one should know it’s beginning. The heel (end) crushes the head. (beginning). Unless we want to be swallowed again by that serpents head.
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gusano
Guest
The decision is not about movies, although one points to the truth.
The decision is about PERSONS…whom we choose to follow loyally.
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not GATHER with me… scatters." (Mt.12:30)
It is Jesus Christ who we gather with,…
or scatter from.
one is eternal life, the other is deception, apostasy, and damnation.
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gusano
Guest
I would be willing to bet $1.98 that the delision in our time is “the rapture theory”, which is a specific type of apostasy…
and it is happening as we post.
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Benadam
Guest
I think you got something there. $3.00 delusion to follow.I would be willing to bet $1.98 that the delision in our time is “the rapture theory”, which is a specific type of apostasy…
and it is happening as we post.
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Pace
Guest
Church Militant:
I agree that the question is important. I only wanted to point out that it would be something worse than apostasy for an apostate (i.e. someone who is currently ‘falling away’, even if just a touch) to question whether other Christians at other times were apostate, at least until he himself was freed from his current ‘apostasy’ situation. It would be something worse in that it would be a kind of insanity. And it relates to the two movies I mentioned, in that one is more like a history lesson and the other is more like the Eucharist (i.e. Christ here and now). This idea is something that we were discussing in another thread.
CM,The past is VERY important…especially Christian history which shows us what those real New Testament Christians believed and WHY they were willing to lay down their lives for it.
As was suggested above, please check out my initial post and respond to it if you have historical evidence that there was a Great Apostasy just after the last apostle died. My own opinion is that it did not happen and so far no one has offered the slightest evidence that it did. THIS IS IMPORTANT because it then suggests that since the all Christians were Catholics at that point that that same NT church still exists today and has faithfully preserved the NT Christianity. As opposed to the new “doctrines of men” that came into being some 487 years ago during what is now called The Reformation, some of whom have alleged in their writings that such an apostasy did occur.
Pax vobiscum,
I agree that the question is important. I only wanted to point out that it would be something worse than apostasy for an apostate (i.e. someone who is currently ‘falling away’, even if just a touch) to question whether other Christians at other times were apostate, at least until he himself was freed from his current ‘apostasy’ situation. It would be something worse in that it would be a kind of insanity. And it relates to the two movies I mentioned, in that one is more like a history lesson and the other is more like the Eucharist (i.e. Christ here and now). This idea is something that we were discussing in another thread.
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MaggieOH
Guest
But it is irrelevant to this thread because an accusation against the Catholic Church has been made stating that it became corrupt at the time of Constantine. What is wanted here is the proof that this actually happened.
Maggie
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serendipity
Guest
Church Militant:
Kind of like it would be difficult for me trying to win an argument that proves God exists. I have Krefft and Tacellis’ Handbook on Christina Apologetics to cover that base, but for me I have so much trouble fathoming how people can *not *believe (unless they were raised without a religion and suffered some major trauma like loosing a child) that nothing comes to me naturally to address the topic…
Do you think this source provides the best explanations to defend “Great Apostasy” rubbish? I have been looking for a while. My problem is when they throw quotes at me it’s usually no problem to defend. Same with questioning traditions, because I know where most of those come from (never say all). But when they come up with this warped history mumbo jumbo, that I find so ludicrous…I’m a bit taken back about how to explain the irrationality of thier arguments, because it is so irrational (with all the documents we have) that I just can’t relate how people believe it. Nad I hear it all the time here; how Catholcis aren’t Christian. We’re a cult. Are beliefs are based on pagan rituals. The Church Fathers who are well known, were never Catholic; they’re in the Christian section fo the book store too. Catholics have one book row of a shelf, not a section. The other rows on the shelfs are “Eastern Religions,” meaning (here at least ) Judaism, Islam, Budhhism, and Yoga books!
Kind of like it would be difficult for me trying to win an argument that proves God exists. I have Krefft and Tacellis’ Handbook on Christina Apologetics to cover that base, but for me I have so much trouble fathoming how people can *not *believe (unless they were raised without a religion and suffered some major trauma like loosing a child) that nothing comes to me naturally to address the topic…
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MaggieOH
Guest
Hi Serendipity,
first off I have to purchase my Catholic books from a Catholic bookstore. Over here if you went into a “Christian” bookstore you will not find anything that is Catholic in there. The exception is one store close to home where the shop owner has put in a few Catholic Bibles to meet local needs.
You asked some good questions about how best to defend what is utter nonsense. This is where I use as much in the way of Internet resources as I can, to debunk what is lacking in truth.
One way of achieving the objective is to familiarize yourself with the arguments of the opposition. This objective helped me when facing someone who wanted to know if I had been saved. She was totally confounded when I kept telling her that through grace of God given to me at Baptism I am saved. She went through all of the arguments about the mode of Baptism and I did not give an inch to any of her objections. Yes, I learned it all from apologists such as Karl Keating, Scott Hahn and others.
If Michael does not object I think that we should start to introduce those objections that we hear and see if we can debunk them given the lack of historical certainty that those claims contain.
MaggieOH
first off I have to purchase my Catholic books from a Catholic bookstore. Over here if you went into a “Christian” bookstore you will not find anything that is Catholic in there. The exception is one store close to home where the shop owner has put in a few Catholic Bibles to meet local needs.
You asked some good questions about how best to defend what is utter nonsense. This is where I use as much in the way of Internet resources as I can, to debunk what is lacking in truth.
One way of achieving the objective is to familiarize yourself with the arguments of the opposition. This objective helped me when facing someone who wanted to know if I had been saved. She was totally confounded when I kept telling her that through grace of God given to me at Baptism I am saved. She went through all of the arguments about the mode of Baptism and I did not give an inch to any of her objections. Yes, I learned it all from apologists such as Karl Keating, Scott Hahn and others.
If Michael does not object I think that we should start to introduce those objections that we hear and see if we can debunk them given the lack of historical certainty that those claims contain.
MaggieOH
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papist1
Guest
The LDS(mormon) organization is the most guilty of purporting this invention.
The protestant sects have followed in the mormons footsteps and the Jws have done the same.
It began with the date of the apostacy occurring aaround the 300’s and then as the LDS heirarchy started reading more of the Church Fathers, they began going further back with the date. Right now, the claim is made that the apostacy occurred around 100ad. This is because they are finding less information to prove either side of the coin. I guess they will then have to say it was about 46 yrs earlier, as that is about the time the Didache(teaching) of the Apostles and their disciples started writing it.
Joseph Smith already basically said Jesus went into apostacy Himself by saying that Christ could not even make a Church that could stand.
The protestant sects have followed in the mormons footsteps and the Jws have done the same.
It began with the date of the apostacy occurring aaround the 300’s and then as the LDS heirarchy started reading more of the Church Fathers, they began going further back with the date. Right now, the claim is made that the apostacy occurred around 100ad. This is because they are finding less information to prove either side of the coin. I guess they will then have to say it was about 46 yrs earlier, as that is about the time the Didache(teaching) of the Apostles and their disciples started writing it.
Joseph Smith already basically said Jesus went into apostacy Himself by saying that Christ could not even make a Church that could stand.
The devil certainly works in mysterious ways sometimes also. I think the devil copies off of God to mix just enough Truth with a bunch of underlying bologna.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Let’s rock then.
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serendipity
Guest
I was not talking about any book store here, but the one in the “big city” about an hour away. The county I live in just opened its first book store this past summer. Fortunately it’s in my “city;” I have to use the term city because Americans don’t really use the word vilalge. I have a few European friends and one who visited me here asked, why don’t they call this a village?" No Catholic books here. I am a big client of Amazon.
The main problem with Amazon is that many of the books recommended on here, liek the one Michael suggested can not be viewd at all. It’s really a gamble ordering them.
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MaggieOH
Guest
Scenario:
You are confronted by a Puritan fundamentalist who claims that the Catholic Church was corrupted because of the introduction of pagan ideas by the emperor Constantine. This person also claims that much of what the Catholic Church does today are either the doctrines of men, or they are inventions. She then goes on to give a partial list of these “inventions”:
These assumptions are based upon some of the charges made by Loraine Boettner, the issue here is to dissect the accusation and prove how it is false. I will try to find some data on from anti-Catholic sites that accuse the Catholic Church of Apostasy, which in turn is used to give them legitimacy as the Church established by Jesus Christ.
MaggieOH
You are confronted by a Puritan fundamentalist who claims that the Catholic Church was corrupted because of the introduction of pagan ideas by the emperor Constantine. This person also claims that much of what the Catholic Church does today are either the doctrines of men, or they are inventions. She then goes on to give a partial list of these “inventions”:
- The “chair” of Peter dates back to the ninth century and cannot be proved as being a part of early Christianity.
- The use of the “cookie” and wine has been borrowed from the pagans of Mithraism.
- The Virgin Birth was first mentioned in the eastern mystic religions, and the Catholics made up a Virgin Birth to give their religion legitimacy.
- Early Christians did not have a Pope. This is an invention that dates back to Constantine.
These assumptions are based upon some of the charges made by Loraine Boettner, the issue here is to dissect the accusation and prove how it is false. I will try to find some data on from anti-Catholic sites that accuse the Catholic Church of Apostasy, which in turn is used to give them legitimacy as the Church established by Jesus Christ.
MaggieOH
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