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AngryAtheist8
Guest
So according to Catholics like you only God is qualified to use reason then?
If people ever use reason and come to non-Church approved conclusions those conclusions must be rejected?
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
Can you only answer in slogans and platitudes?
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
No that’s how they acted when they had power.
Aren’t you familiar with the name Oliver Cromwell?
The Puritans were not nice people.
They were violent killjoys who wanted everyone else to live like them and were perfectly willing to use force to achieve such a result.
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
(underlining is my own)
I got the impression that they wanted conformity from one of the legacies they left behind, the Blue Laws. The last of the Blue Laws where I live is no longer enforced on a state level and was recently made something that is the decision of the county/city.
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Spock
Guest
No, I would never dismiss someone who simply professes a belief in God. You, however said that you “KNOW” that God exists. That is the cruical difference. Good bye again.
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Spock
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You are wrong. I would very much love to be deluded and mistaken. That is my desire to be wrong. The trouble is that there is no evidence of what you “allegedly KNOW”. On the other hand there is absolutely overwhelming, incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.
The same delusion. You believe with all your heart - but you cannot KNOW. No one KNOWS.
I went through this over and over again. I was told to go the Marian Chapel with other catholilcs and pray the rosary, and I will be given the sign. Nothing happened, not even in the St. Peter’s cathedral - the holiest of all. So, trust me, I would love to be wrong. Different posters “challenged” me to do different “tests” and none of them worked…
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ivebeenshown
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The problem we have with such things as described in the OP is not necessarily a direct harm to ourselves, but a harm to society. Humankind is capable of so many great things, and what is ironic is that while I have seen some secular/atheistic folk proclaim that religion hinders man, these are often the same folk that actively support practices which enslave man with carnal desires – desires which prevent man from reaching his full potential.
So many live a life in which they have reduced themselves to beasts, chasing only after the next wet dream or pornographic image on a screen, objectifying their fellow human beings; many have resorted to all sorts of precautions and ‘fixes’ for their insatiable addictions, defeating the biological purpose of their bodies and even bringing death to newly formed human life (once conception has occurred, new human life with a unique genetic makeup is present.)
So man voices his desire for the things which appeal to his weaknesses, all the while scrambling for new cures, surgeries, regimens, and ‘fixes’ to solve the ‘problems’ incurred by such behavior; man does these things and yet cannot see that the problem is within himself.
So many live a life in which they have reduced themselves to beasts, chasing only after the next wet dream or pornographic image on a screen, objectifying their fellow human beings; many have resorted to all sorts of precautions and ‘fixes’ for their insatiable addictions, defeating the biological purpose of their bodies and even bringing death to newly formed human life (once conception has occurred, new human life with a unique genetic makeup is present.)
So man voices his desire for the things which appeal to his weaknesses, all the while scrambling for new cures, surgeries, regimens, and ‘fixes’ to solve the ‘problems’ incurred by such behavior; man does these things and yet cannot see that the problem is within himself.
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LittleSoldier
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Where did I say that only God is qualified to use reason? Please provide a post number and quote. Thank you.
If people use reason (yes, they can; our ability to use reason is a gift from God) and come to non-Church approved conclusions then those people’s conclusions are in error. The Church teaches Truth. (Oh, sorry - that must be another slogan or platitude, eh?If people ever use reason and come to non-Church approved conclusions those conclusions must be rejected?
)
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Of course I KNOW God exists!! I KNOW He exists simply because He DOES!! What would you expect me to say? I’m not an agnostic!
You’ve said “good-bye” to me three times now. Are you going somewhere?
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Nate13
Guest
Our ability to reason has been given to us by God. True reason should lead us to the Truth. The Truth gained another name after Christ came into the world called the Roman Catholic Church. I’d also point out the ability to reason and reach true conclusions is only as good as the knowledge we have and our ability to see the grand scheme of things. Thus God is the greatest reasoner because he is all knowing. We are all capable of using reason but we should never forget that our conclusions based on reason are only as good as our initial presumptions and our ability to look at a problem in an unbiased manner. When you think of all the factors that could affect our reasoning and cause us to draw wrong conclusions it is actually quite sobering. In that mind it is incredibly reasonable to subscribe to a religion who’s head is all knowing, all loving, and therefore has perfect reasonSo according to Catholics like you only God is qualified to use reason then?
If people ever use reason and come to non-Church approved conclusions those conclusions must be rejected?
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Candide_West
Guest
If nobody minds I’d like to throw in a query.*
LittleSoldier, I understand that you are entirely certain that God wouldn’t ask you to (for example) kill a child. But surely a question posed as Spock did as a deliberate counter-factual question is still valid?*
It’s certainly something I’d be interested in seeing answered as it provides information on how your morality is formed.
Also, out of curiosity, why are you so certain that God would never command you to (for example) kill a child? God has (according to the bible at least) commanded human sacrifice, genocide etc.*
What would you do if God commanded you as he did Abraham? Would you go ahead with it and hope/trust in God to intervene at the last moment? Or refuse to obey the command?
Thanks
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LittleSoldier
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This is the first thing you have said that has given me a glimmer of understanding of you. You tried. And you would love to be wrong. That is exactly how I felt when I was agnostic. I wanted nothing more than to be given a sign that God exists. I asked Him for one. I told Him that I would drive and at the first Catholic Church I came to I hoped He would have a sign in front of it. For me.
There was a hearse in front of that church. So I turned my back on the Church and stayed that way for a couple of decades. I know this doesn’t make sense because if I believed that hearse was a sign I would have had to be convinced that someone put it there, but I didn’t.
But I still wanted to be convinced - mainly because I was so afraid to die and then not exist anymore. So I thought about all the very intelligent people who believe in God - who KNOW that God exists. I thought that if they knew that should be good enough for me. Of course it wasn’t. I was a Doubting Thomas. I think the only thing that would have convinced me during those decades was if Jesus appeared to me and told me to put my hands in His wounds.
What started me on my long trek (no pun intended; really, this is serious) back to the Church was when I had a long discussion with a monk who knew his stuff. All the prayers, the rosaries, reading the bible - that is not what did it for me. What did it for me was talking to someone who really KNEW. And even then I didn’t fully accept it. It took years of asking questions, over and over and over and then one day I KNEW.
God did give me a sign but not when I asked for it. Do you remember that old joke about the guy who asks God for a sign and opens the bible to a random page and, with his eyes closed, puts his finger on a line and it says “And Judas went out and hanged himself.” So he asks for a second sign, does the same thing, and what he reads is “Go therefore and do likewise.” (I’m paraphrasing here as I still don’t know the bible very well.) It’s been my experience that whenever I’ve asked for a sign I don’t think I’ve received it. Maybe I missed it or maybe God’s silence is the sign or maybe God is working in a way I don’t understand.
I don’t know what the answer is for you. All I can do is tell you what happened to me. My faith wobbled during several years after I had developed a belief in Him. I had weak faith. But with more and more questions with answers I couldn’t deny were true I developed a strong belief and then I really KNEW beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists. I think that you were misled. I was, too. I belonged to a teen group and they actually held hands, in a Catholic Church, and asked God to allow a demon to possess me (but just a little one). When I look back at that I’m astounded at the lack of knowledge those people had and the power they had over a young teen who was just searching for God. What they did was so disrespectful to God and to me. How dare they be in the House of God and pray for me to be possessed!
Please keep trying. I know we’ve been arguing but what you’ve said here is far more important than anything either you or I have written in this thread. I don’t think you’ll believe this but your eternal life is very important to me and to the other Christians who have posted with you. I’m not saying you have to be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved - that is a heresy. If you know the parable of the sheep and the goats you’ll know what you have to do.
I’d like to write more - a whole lot more, but you’re angry with me and have dismissed me. I don’t expect a response to this post and I don’t really want one. What I want is for you to be a saint. And me, too.
This is my last post in this thread because I have tried to really open my heart here and I’m frightened that you will attack me. I may KNOW that God exists but that doesn’t mean I’m a strong person and an attack now would devastate me as I have severe depression that I’m trying to keep at bay. I can’t seem to fight it off for very long. And it’s when I really open myself up that the depression finds a vulnerable spot and attacks and then I am filled with despair.
I hope that you find the strength and resolve to keep searching. And I hope and pray I will meet you in heaven.
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Wardog
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Don’t give up. Your postings are more coherent and reasonable than many others on this forum. The problem is not you, but the ones who cannot understand. It’s like trying to explain the color red to a blind man. They don’t share the same references that you do, so assume that you must be crazy.
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MindOverMatter2
Guest
Its wrong to see the bible as a strictly historical document, just as it is wrong to see the bible as a science book. In essence its a theological expression of a Jewish religion that used stories mixed with both history, allegory, myth, and parable, in order to express their understanding of God, the source of their religion. And what we see in the bible is a continual development of their understanding of the concept of God, both morally and ontologically. We see a history of man grappling with the idea of God. Yes there is history, but there is also exaggerated myths, some of which when taken literally do not really correspond to Gods true nature but are used none the less to express Gods power and sovereignty as they understood it at the time. How much God cares for Israel is depicted in the sense of God ensuring their victory over their enemies. In ancient times, kings and queens expressed their absolute power, by mercilessly killing men women and children. The concept of wiping out a whole race of people, when seen in its proper context, seem to the author at the time to be a good way of showing how powerful the Jewish God has made Israel and how his favor rests with them over all nations. Its unfortunate that he used that idea. But the people of his time understood what he meant by that literary device in so far as it displayed a popular sense of power. However, as the bible develops we see how the depiction of Gods character changes.
The old testament depiction of God was largely a warrior God protecting the Israel people and commanding them to dispatch the enemy. We know that in real history that the Canaanites were not all wiped out; and there is no real evidence that a city called Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, at least not in the way depicted in the bible. So we cannot really take these stories as historical documents, but rather as the theological expression of the war on sin. Notice that Stories of great floods or wars or destructions of cities are always depicted in the sense of getting rid of “sin”. If you look at it in a theological sense, then i think it would be more accurate to view these stories as allegories depicting how much God hates sin, and that sin brings destruction, which is depicted as God bringing his terrible wrath, through floods and saving that which is holy and good, etc.
God never commanded the human sacrifice of Abraham’s son; and those people who take the story literally, miss the point. There are many dimensions to this story that are revealed when you see it for what it is. At the end of the story God is depicted as saying to Abraham not to sacrifice his son, and the author concludes the story by saying that Abraham had great faith in God. In other words the story really isn’t about sacrificing children. That is merely a tool which the author uses in order to make his point. The main point the author is trying to make is that we should always have faith that God would never lead us astray; we should never question the good of God. This is a point which is evidently expressed when God tells Abraham to stop the sacrifice, revealing the fact that God is good and would never command us to kill our children like the “pagans” and other nations in that time who were practicing that evil act. So not only does the story teach us about having faith in God’s goodness, but it is also a moral attack on “human sacrifice”. Also there are other theological dimensions; such as the idea that you should love God more than your most treasured possession, and be willing to make sacrifices for God. But the author is certainly not trying to say that if God told us to do evil, that we should do it. But rather he is telling us that God would never tell us to do evil, and that we should trust the good of God.
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StarFireKK
Guest
Oh, how wrong you are, my friend!
It is possible to KNOW God exists. I love how Julia Mae puts it- some of us just needed it.
Well now I am delusional as well so I suppose you are going to say goodbye to me too.
:egyptian:
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RobbyS
Guest
John Winthrop was hardly a Cromwell. Cromwell was indeed, hell on wheels as a military commander. He had Europe scared to death. If he had got an army to France, he probably could have replicated the success of Henry V. He was also responsible for the modern Royal Navy which for 300 years was the most powerful in the world. But as Pascal so succinctly put it, he was carried off by a mere grain of sand.
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Sair
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Except that, of necessity, if you are to maintain your belief, you cannot ever know that the God in whom you believe is actually all-knowing…Our ability to reason has been given to us by God. True reason should lead us to the Truth. The Truth gained another name after Christ came into the world called the Roman Catholic Church. I’d also point out the ability to reason and reach true conclusions is only as good as the knowledge we have and our ability to see the grand scheme of things. Thus God is the greatest reasoner because he is all knowing. We are all capable of using reason but we should never forget that our conclusions based on reason are only as good as our initial presumptions and our ability to look at a problem in an unbiased manner. When you think of all the factors that could affect our reasoning and cause us to draw wrong conclusions it is actually quite sobering. In that mind it is incredibly reasonable to subscribe to a religion who’s head is all knowing, all loving, and therefore has perfect reason
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MindOverMatter2
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Why is that?
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Sair
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If you were to know, undoubtedly, that your god is all-knowing, you would likewise be all-knowing, therefore the privileged status you accord your god would be severely undermined.
If you simply take your god’s word for it that he is all-knowing, that is belief, not knowledge.
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