The immaculate misconception

[AngryAtheist8]

Where did I say that only God is qualified to use reason? Please provide a post number and quote. Thank you.

]

It took a while (sorry I have been busy with work) but your wish is my command.
I bolded the part where you seem to imply that only a godlike being should judge (e.g. use his reason to evaluate) God.

Oct 16, '11, 12:50 pm
LittleSoldier
Regular Member Join Date: November 27, 2009
Location: Psychotic State University
Posts: 4,119
Religion: ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH - Revert

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
Even if Jesus did die for our sins so what?

God also created the system where sins are virtually impossible to avoid and deserving of damnation. These are not the actions of a loving, all-knowing, all-powerful being.

Says who? You? How do you know this? Are you omniscient? Are you divine? Where do you get the authority to determine the appropriate characteristics of a God in Whom you don’t even believe?

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In Your love I find release,
A haven from my unbelief.
Take my life and let me be
a living prayer, my God to Thee.
Take my life and let me be
a living prayer, my God to Thee. - Allison Krauss

St. Agnes, please pray for me.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Where did I say that only God is qualified to use reason? Please provide a post number and quote. Thank you.

If people use reason (yes, they can; our ability to use reason is a gift from God) and come to non-Church approved conclusions then those people’s conclusions are in error. The Church teaches Truth. (Oh, sorry - that must be another slogan or platitude, eh? )

No, worse than that.

If people are not allowed to use reason to come to their own conclusions, then they really aren’t allowed to use reason at all.

Its like that old Henry Ford joke:
People can have a ford in whatever color they want, as long as they want black (I realize I may have gotten a few of the words wrong, but the basic message is the same).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Our ability to reason has been given to us by God. True reason should lead us to the Truth. The Truth gained another name after Christ came into the world called the Roman Catholic Church. I’d also point out the ability to reason and reach true conclusions is only as good as the knowledge we have and our ability to see the grand scheme of things. Thus God is the greatest reasoner because he is all knowing. We are all capable of using reason but we should never forget that our conclusions based on reason are only as good as our initial presumptions and our ability to look at a problem in an unbiased manner. When you think of all the factors that could affect our reasoning and cause us to draw wrong conclusions it is actually quite sobering. **In that mind it is incredibly reasonable to subscribe to a religion who’s head is all knowing, all loving, and therefore has perfect reason **

The Pope is all-knowing

 

[Nate13]

The Pope is all-knowing

God is all knowing, not the Pope haha. I believe you knew what I meant though and were just being a pain, and if not you should do some more research and stop criticizing what you think the Church is.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

God is all knowing, not the Pope haha. I believe you knew what I meant though and were just being a pain, and if not you should do some more research and stop criticizing what you think the Church is.

But God is not the head of the Catholic Church (at least not in any practical earthly sense).

The Pope is.

The Church might be about God, but the Pope is the leader, the head of the hierarchy.

 

[Nate13]

But God is not the head of the Catholic Church (at least not in any practical earthly sense).

The Pope is.

The Church might be about God, but the Pope is the leader, the head of the hierarchy.

All authority the Pope/bishops/priests have was given to them by Jesus to the apostles and passed on. The end of the rope is God. Your right that the Pope could also be referred to as the head of the Church in an earthly sense, but I think my post made it obvious as to what I intended that to mean. If not then now you know

The whole point of my post is that if you have to put your faith in someone/something/some group, I think its incredibly rational if that someone is all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. I also think it is rational to assume that someone powerful enough to create all of the Universe and time itself from nothing would be all knowing.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

All authority the Pope/bishops/priests have was given to them by Jesus to the apostles and passed on. The end of the rope is God. Your right that the Pope could also be referred to as the head of the Church in an earthly sense, but I think my post made it obvious as to what I intended that to mean. If not then now you know

The whole point of my post is that if you have to put your faith in someone/something/some group, I think its incredibly rational if that someone is all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful. I also think it is rational to assume that someone powerful enough to create all of the Universe and time itself from nothing would be all knowing.

But God is not involved in running the Catholic Church (not on a daily basis anyway as far as anyone can tell).
People like the Pope are.
And they are at least as imperfect (and capable of abusing their positions) as the rest of humanity.

 

[RobbyS]

But God is not involved in running the Catholic Church (not on a daily basis anyway as far as anyone can tell).
People like the Pope are.
And they are at least as imperfect (and capable of abusing their positions) as the rest of humanity.

God is the Creator, which means that he "runs"everything. The mission of the Church is to tell mankind that Jesus is alive and well, and will soon come to set all things right. Sorry that you can’t see the evidence. But maybe it is you and not God.

 

[Nate13]

But God is not involved in running the Catholic Church (not on a daily basis anyway as far as anyone can tell).
People like the Pope are.
And they are at least as imperfect (and capable of abusing their positions) as the rest of humanity.

Perfectly good point. Their authority did come from God though and we were given the promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. The Truth is unchanging and therefore God doesn’t need to be coordinating day to day activities haha. Every bishop out there could be corrupted to the core and still the Truth would not change. The Church is not the creator of the Truth, but rather its protector. You have to remember that the Truth started out as being defended by only 12 people.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

God is the Creator, which means that he "runs"everything. The mission of the Church is to tell mankind that Jesus is alive and well, and will soon come to set all things right. Sorry that you can’t see the evidence. But maybe it is you and not God.

Or maybe there is no evidence:shrug:

You cannot prove a negative.
Or for that matter have God as your CEO or King here on Earth.
You need humans for that.

As for the soon comment, the Chuch as been saying Jesus is coming for over 2 thousand years, but he still hasn’t shown up.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Abraham did not attempt to kill is son in honor of the “gods.” He was obeying God, your God and my God, out of obedience to Him.

So in your opinion that act of obeying a God is not the same thing as honoring a God?

 

[Spock]

As for the soon comment, the Chuch as been saying Jesus is coming for over 2 thousand years, but he still hasn’t shown up.

When the Americans landed on the Moon… the Soviet Union said: “in the very near future we shall go to the Moon as well!”. Somehow it did not happen, and the Soviet Union also ceased to exist. The parallel is rather obvious. The actual followers of Jesus were so convinced of his imminent return that they saw no point in making transcripts of his teachings.

After all it was Jesus himself who (allegedly) said: “Verily I say unto you that not all of you will taste death when the Kingdom of God will come to Earth” (not a verbatim quote). But it did not happen… and still does not happen. And I am making a prediction: it will not happen this year, and will not happen next year, and will not happen the next decade… and I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. Are you guys willing to pluck down your money and bet on the “imminent” return? … waiting… waiting… I thought so. So you talk the talk… but you are not going to walk the walk… Where is your faith now?

 

[Nate13]

Or maybe there is no evidence:shrug:

You cannot prove a negative.
Or for that matter have God as your CEO or King here on Earth.
You need humans for that.

As for the soon comment, the Chuch as been saying Jesus is coming for over 2 thousand years, but he still hasn’t shown up.

haha Jesus has come, is here, and will come at the end of the world. I can walk over to the Church near by for adoration anytime I want to see him. We receive him every week in the Eucharist. If you would like to see him show up to mass sometime.

 

[StarFireKK]

When the Americans landed on the Moon… the Soviet Union said: “in the very near future we shall go to the Moon as well!”. Somehow it did not happen, and the Soviet Union also ceased to exist. The parallel is rather obvious. The actual followers of Jesus were so convinced of his imminent return that they saw no point in making transcripts of his teachings.

After all it was Jesus himself who (allegedly) said: “Verily I say unto you that not all of you will taste death when the Kingdom of God will come to Earth” (not a verbatim quote). But it did not happen… and still does not happen. And I am making a prediction: it will not happen this year, and will not happen next year, and will not happen the next decade… and I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. Are you guys willing to pluck down your money and bet on the “imminent” return? … waiting… waiting… I thought so. So you talk the talk… but you are not going to walk the walk… Where is your faith now?

“Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:27

“Amen I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

"He also said to them, “Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power.” Mark 9:1

In each of the gospels the next event after this promise is the Transfiguration of Jesus. It is a generally accepted interpretation that this promise was not referring to His coming but to the transfiguration. Since during the transfiguration Christ was seen in his Glory as he would be seen in Heaven- the promise was fulfilled.

 

[Nate13]

“Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:27

“Amen I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

"He also said to them, “Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power.” Mark 9:1

In each of the gospels the next event after this promise is the Transfiguration of Jesus. It is a generally accepted interpretation that this promise was not referring to His coming but to the transfiguration. Since during the transfiguration Christ was seen in his Glory as he would be seen in Heaven- the promise was fulfilled.

Or they saw this first hand when God came and wiped the last traces of the Old Covenant away with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem The New Covenant means the kingdom of God is here among us. The Holy Spirit is alive within us, and Jesus is present in the Eucharist 24/7. 70A.D was when the temple was destroyed and the last remains of the Old Covenant ended making way for the New Covenant, all occurring within 40 years of Jesus’s death i.e within a generation.

Every time the Eucharist is celebrated we come into contact with eternity.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

haha Jesus has come, is here, and will come at the end of the world. I can walk over to the Church near by for adoration anytime I want to see him. We receive him every week in the Eucharist. If you would like to see him show up to mass sometime.

I could make a statue of Darth Vader and conduct a worship service around it too.
But that wouldn’t make the Dark Lord of the Sith any less fictional, regardless of what I believed.

 

[Nate13]

I could make a statue of Darth Vader and conduct a worship service around it too.
But that wouldn’t make the Dark Lord of the Sith any less fictional, regardless of what I believed.

Now your just being condescending. I answered your rebuke that Jesus had not come yet. That was all my comment was meant to do. I didn’t ask you to believe.

 

[StarFireKK]

There are a number of people who have claimed here that they know their god exists, the implication being that this is some privileged form of knowledge to which only they are privy; **the usual implication is that if people are ‘open’ to belief in God, the knowledge will come **- as long as you believe first.

That is correct! You have to open your heart and mind. You don’t have to believe you merely have to be open to the idea.

But that is true of anything. How are you going to learn Mathematics if you insist there is nothing worth learning?

How are you going to learn a language if you don’t accept there are things you don’t know or understand?

 

[StarFireKK]

Or they saw this first hand when God came and wiped the last traces of the Old Covenant away with the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem The New Covenant means the kingdom of God is here among us. The Holy Spirit is alive within us, and Jesus is present in the Eucharist 24/7. 70A.D was when the temple was destroyed and the last remains of the Old Covenant ended making way for the New Covenant, all occurring within 40 years of Jesus’s death i.e within a generation.

Every time the Eucharist is celebrated we come into contact with eternity.

Very good point! :tiphat:

 

[Spock]

“Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:27

“Amen I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

"He also said to them, “Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power.” Mark 9:1

In each of the gospels the next event after this promise is the Transfiguration of Jesus. It is a generally accepted interpretation that this promise was not referring to His coming but to the transfiguration. Since during the transfiguration Christ was seen in his Glory as he would be seen in Heaven- the promise was fulfilled.

Obviously the people who lived back then back then “interpreted” it otherwise. And as such they never bothered to make a written compilation of the events - after all, if the Kingdom of God will come in their lifetime, what is point? I have heard so many times that the “interpretation” must take into account the mindset of the people it is supposed to refer to. So, why is it neglected in this case? Because it is not convenient. The gospels were written decades after the alleged events took place, when it was “obvious” that there will be no coming of the Kingdom of God any time soon.