S
Sen_McGlinn
Guest
Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Does this mean then, that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob already have their bodies back?
- Status
Does this mean then, that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob already have their bodies back?
M
mercytruth
Guest
Very good, Nita.
Bishop Eusebius was of course the writer of the History of the Church. He was also a witness to the final years of persecution under the pagan Roman Empire. He was a close confidant to Emperor Constantine.
Historically, the end of persecution and the conversion of Emperor Constantine opened up an era of euphoria in the universal church. Perhaps, it led to the understanding that Satan had been defeated and chained, and a golden era of the kingdom of God had come to the earth.
One would have to do somersaults to undo the various statements by the apostles of the Church. Such as the one by St. Peter, 'Satan is as a roaring lion, seeking those whom he might devour". St. Paul on Satan, 'he comes as an angel of light deceiving". Or, “he is the prince of the power of the air”, and many other such NT scriptures which speak of the antichrist being empowered by Satan…
If the era of Hitler and Stalin were not the darkest period in our history, fueled by Satan himself, what was more dark? So, I have trouble with the view that Satan has been bound for a thousand years at this present time in church history.
God’s peace.
M
mercytruth
Guest
Kam,Micah, your posted thoughts above are outstanding and I thank you for posting them. It has filled my mind with a plethora of thoughts. However, it is getting incredibly late here in Australia, so I will respond tomorrow.
Thankyou my friends and thankyou also Nita, I will pull up the CC and study it again
Kam
Others will be able to answer your questions, too. Sometimes I veer off in areas like the millenium which is not an official Catholic doctrine. It can be found in Rev. 20:1-15.
The difficulty with this scripture is that it is prophetic, so it is not wise to be adamant about any particular interpretation. As the apostle Paul says, "we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part, shall be done away. For now we see as through a glass darkly, but then face to face."
The subject that we are discussing is a favorite of mine for it represents the virtue of hope. The virtues of faith and love which you were discussing in your other post are also favorites of mine.
God bless you.
Micah
K
Kam_Fanaian
Guest
My recollections of this tradition is not 100% accurate, but I think this is an ancient Hindu tradition.
The story is that the villagers one day recognized the wonderful attributes of the sun, and decided that it is worthy of worship. It was after all the sustainer of their physical lives and deserved such praise.
The villagers would recognize the beauty of the sun shining thorough the openings of their homes and would adorn the opening of their homes with a beautiful coloured cloth. Each generation of occupants within that home would adorn the radiance of the sun with a different coloured cloth.
Eventually, the sun no longer gave her radiance into that home, and the true attributes of the sun were lost. Until, one day, one generation were inspired by their Elder to remove all the cloths and the radiance of the sun was restored again.
My point for this is that maybe the Early Church Fathers interpretations are more valid than the interpretations offered in the later periods of Catholicism.
Just a thought I felt impelled to share, having come to me after my prayers this morning
Kam
The story is that the villagers one day recognized the wonderful attributes of the sun, and decided that it is worthy of worship. It was after all the sustainer of their physical lives and deserved such praise.
The villagers would recognize the beauty of the sun shining thorough the openings of their homes and would adorn the opening of their homes with a beautiful coloured cloth. Each generation of occupants within that home would adorn the radiance of the sun with a different coloured cloth.
Eventually, the sun no longer gave her radiance into that home, and the true attributes of the sun were lost. Until, one day, one generation were inspired by their Elder to remove all the cloths and the radiance of the sun was restored again.
My point for this is that maybe the Early Church Fathers interpretations are more valid than the interpretations offered in the later periods of Catholicism.
Just a thought I felt impelled to share, having come to me after my prayers this morning
Kam
M
mercytruth
Guest
Kam, thank you.My recollections of this tradition is not 100% accurate, but I think this is an ancient Hindu tradition.
The story is that the villagers one day recognized the wonderful attributes of the sun, and decided that it is worthy of worship. It was after all the sustainer of their physical lives and deserved such praise.
The villagers would recognize the beauty of the sun shining thorough the openings of their homes and would adorn the opening of their homes with a beautiful coloured cloth. Each generation of occupants within that home would adorn the radiance of the sun with a different coloured cloth.
Eventually, the sun no longer gave her radiance into that home, and the true attributes of the sun were lost. Until, one day, one generation were inspired by their Elder to remove all the cloths and the radiance of the sun was restored again.
My point for this is that maybe the Early Church Fathers interpretations are more valid than the interpretations offered in the later periods of Catholicism.
Just a thought I felt impelled to share, having come to me after my prayers this morning
Kam
Removing the cloths that have covered up the original understanding of a particular scripture, or teaching does seem at least to be the minimal requirement in seeing the light that was shining in the beginning.
I mentioned my interest in the virtues of faith, hope and love. Neither of them are given without humility of heart and mind before our Creator.
God’s peace be with you.
Micah.
S
Sen_McGlinn
Guest
I found lots about the resurrection of the body, but little that explained why Catholics think it important that the body too should be resurrected. It rather seems to be assumed that a life in the body is preferable to life in the spirit, and therefroe God will grant it. However I also found this:
“Belief in the resurrection of the dead has been an essential element of the Christian faith from its beginnings”
Would it be fair to say that, in addition to finding bodily life itself desirable, Catholics maintain the doctrine because, if they do not, the whole idea of a reliable magisterium would be in doubt, just as Evangelicals maintain the literal Genesis creation story because, if they do not, their idea of scriptural inerrancy would be in doubt?
I found one thing that looked inconsistent. On the one hand it is said that the resurrected body+soul will not die again, on the other hand “Already now in this present life he gives a sign and pledge of this by restoring some of the dead to life.” That must be a reference to Lazarus. But did Lazarus live eternally in the body, or die again? Is there a connection perhaps to the story of the wandering Jew, who is supposed to be cursed with immortality in the body? The wandering Jew pops up in Chaucer, but the story is much older, and oriental.
PS: and what of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (see my post #42) who are “living.” ?]
There are several references to “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned.” That is, death entered the world through sin. I think this is unsustainable in the present state of scientific knowledge. Aren’t the white cliffs of Dover made up of the skeletons of uncountable microscopic creatures who died before any human being lived? Did they sin?
I studied a few units of theology at a Catholic Seminary, way back, and as I recall the physical resurrection of Jesus was taught, but interpreted non-literally, while the resurrection of the body in eschatology was not taught. That was a progressive seminary; we studied the work of Leonardo Boff for example. Would it be fair to say that the physical resurrection is not maintained, or not regarded as important, by some Catholics today?
S
Sen_McGlinn
Guest
The story reminds me of a book by a Catholic theologian (I think), called “the sun and the umbrellas.” I found it in the Knox theological library way way back. The author was something like Christopher Ferre. He had a similar story about different coloured umbrellas getting between man and the sun.
K
Kam_Fanaian
Guest
I also find a few sections of the NT very interesting in this matter, namely:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 ESV
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
*Romans 5:12 ESV *
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
…so if death spread to all men because all sinned, then is it possible that eternal life and death may be spiritual conditions of the soul?
…and again, we have here:
*- Ecclesiastes 12:7 *
And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
*- 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 *
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
…why would we want to come back to our bodies, when being away from the body is with our Lord?? The spirit returns to God, when the dust (the body) returns to earth.
Is it possible, therefore, that while the Resurrection of Jesus did physically occur, that the TRUE signifance of it for our lives as Christians and lovers of our Lord, Jesus Christ, is a reference to our own “spiritual” resurrections, our own “spiritual” reunion with God, where we finally shed the lethargies of physical existence, “be away from the body” and live in the true “spiritual” reality of being “at home with of our Lord”?
Why does the Catholic Church take such matters so literally?
Let us be frankly honest, for 2000 years we have been waiting for our own physical resurrection. How much longer will we wait until we start to entertain the thought that maybe this has a greater and (in my humble opinion) much more potent spiritual significance?
God bless to all
Kam
1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 ESV
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
*Romans 5:12 ESV *
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
…so if death spread to all men because all sinned, then is it possible that eternal life and death may be spiritual conditions of the soul?
…and again, we have here:
*- Ecclesiastes 12:7 *
And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
*- 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 *
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
…why would we want to come back to our bodies, when being away from the body is with our Lord?? The spirit returns to God, when the dust (the body) returns to earth.
Is it possible, therefore, that while the Resurrection of Jesus did physically occur, that the TRUE signifance of it for our lives as Christians and lovers of our Lord, Jesus Christ, is a reference to our own “spiritual” resurrections, our own “spiritual” reunion with God, where we finally shed the lethargies of physical existence, “be away from the body” and live in the true “spiritual” reality of being “at home with of our Lord”?
Why does the Catholic Church take such matters so literally?
Let us be frankly honest, for 2000 years we have been waiting for our own physical resurrection. How much longer will we wait until we start to entertain the thought that maybe this has a greater and (in my humble opinion) much more potent spiritual significance?
God bless to all
Kam
K
Kam_Fanaian
Guest
Micah, my dear friend
YES, YES!!!
It requires all of that, faith, hope, humility, love, DETACHMENT from the colourful array, and attachment to the source of light.
Gods light is shining, however, are we all detached from the colourful arrays of interpretation that may have clouded its true splendour?
Kam
M
mercytruth
Guest
Detachment from our physical desires in this life in order to be truly united spiritually with God is of course, the aim and purpose of such contemplatives as St. John of the Cross.Micah, my dear friend
YES, YES!!!
It requires all of that, faith, hope, humility, love, DETACHMENT from the colourful array, and attachment to the source of light.
Gods light is shining, however, are we all detached from the colourful arrays of interpretation that may have clouded its true splendour?
Kam
There is a prayer of St.Paul which reflects this union with God in all his fulness:
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. (Eph.3:14-19).
At the same time St. Paul could also say:
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (Phillipians 3:20-21).
So, being transformed from our ‘lowly bodies’ like unto the glorious body of our Lord Jesus Christ is also to be desired and hoped for.
God’s peace.
Micah.
N
Nita
Guest
I like this story/parable. My application of it however would differ from yours. I would see all the colored cloths as the varying faulty teachings about a topic. (Eg. all the varying false teachings in the early Church about Jesus/God; the various false teachings about the Trinity; etc.) The “Elder” to me is a beautiful symbol of the Magisterium defining the true teaching - providing the light of truth to all.
Actually, it has often been the arising of false teachings that forced the Church to finally articulate the true doctrine (light) and declare the other teachings false (dark).
Just a thought I felt impelled to share, having come to me after my prayers this morning
I think not. Jesus granted authority to the apostles, Peter as head of them. He did not grant that authority to scholars who were not apostles.
Just the one example given here (Papias and Eusebius) shows that there were often totally opposite opinions early on in the Church, prior to the Church issuing a definitive statement.
N
Nita
Guest
Sem, you raise some very good points. I have to leave in a few minutes so don’t have time to respond now. Will do so later on today.
I can answer your last paragraph very quickly. The seminary classes you attended taught you falsehood. Whether the teachers knew it was contrary to Church teaching or not, I do not know. But, thank goodness, you have read the Catechism sections on bodily resurrection so you now know such teachings do not agree with official Catholic doctrine.
There are definitely baptized Catholics who remain active in the Church and knowingly dissent from the Church’s teaching. When it differs from Church doctrines what they proclaiming is their own opinion - it is not Catholic teaching.
God has provided a means to His Church for discerning what teachings are true and which are not. Those Catholics who choose to reject that means, or ignore it’s declarations, will have to answer to Our Lord for it. Jesus said “I am the…Truth…” Truth is very important to Him. I do not find it surprising at all that He provided His Church with a means for discerning the truth.
M
mercytruth
Guest
Kam,
You quoted 1 Thess. 4:15-16, it occurs to me that the remainder needs to be quoted and by so doing, I would propose a modified vesion of Chiliasm.
“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”
I believe that it was Rabbi Nathan who said in the Midrash that the way in which God was present to Israelites in the clouds while in the wilderness, will be the same manner in which He will be with the people in the latter days. (That is, as a pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night).
It is my conjecture then, that heavenly Jerusalem will descend and abide ‘over’ earthly Jerusalem. That is, when Jesus Christ returns with the saints, He and the saints will not physically be on the earth, but over the earth.
There is a unique word found in this scripture. It is the word translated as ‘air’. Which we might interpret as the atmospheric regions of the earth. There is one other occurrence of this word found in the NT apart from Revelations:
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience–among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.” (Eph.2:1-4) ESV
This meeting place in the ‘air’ of Jesus Christ and the resurrected saints is possibley for the purpose of displacing Satan and his own from the ‘air’ and down to this earth at the time of the tribulation. This is the reversal of when the ‘glory’ of the Temple in Jerusalem departed from Jerusalem and the earth before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian kingdom. (as recounted by the prophet Ezekiel.)
It is my conjecture that Jesus Christ with heavenly Jerusalem and the resurrected saints will descend in the clouds and to the atmospheric region of this earth and reign over earthly Jerusalem, and the earth for a thousand years in order to restore on earth what was destroyed by Satan.
Bishop Irenaeus says that the survivors of the coming tribulation will be the ones who will populate the earth at this time. Thus, a possible modified version of Chiliasm.
God’s peace.
Micah.
You quoted 1 Thess. 4:15-16, it occurs to me that the remainder needs to be quoted and by so doing, I would propose a modified vesion of Chiliasm.
“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”
I believe that it was Rabbi Nathan who said in the Midrash that the way in which God was present to Israelites in the clouds while in the wilderness, will be the same manner in which He will be with the people in the latter days. (That is, as a pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night).
It is my conjecture then, that heavenly Jerusalem will descend and abide ‘over’ earthly Jerusalem. That is, when Jesus Christ returns with the saints, He and the saints will not physically be on the earth, but over the earth.
There is a unique word found in this scripture. It is the word translated as ‘air’. Which we might interpret as the atmospheric regions of the earth. There is one other occurrence of this word found in the NT apart from Revelations:
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience–among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.” (Eph.2:1-4) ESV
This meeting place in the ‘air’ of Jesus Christ and the resurrected saints is possibley for the purpose of displacing Satan and his own from the ‘air’ and down to this earth at the time of the tribulation. This is the reversal of when the ‘glory’ of the Temple in Jerusalem departed from Jerusalem and the earth before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian kingdom. (as recounted by the prophet Ezekiel.)
It is my conjecture that Jesus Christ with heavenly Jerusalem and the resurrected saints will descend in the clouds and to the atmospheric region of this earth and reign over earthly Jerusalem, and the earth for a thousand years in order to restore on earth what was destroyed by Satan.
Bishop Irenaeus says that the survivors of the coming tribulation will be the ones who will populate the earth at this time. Thus, a possible modified version of Chiliasm.
God’s peace.
Micah.
K
Kam_Fanaian
Guest
My dear brothers and sisters. If I may share the following now that Micah has raised the beautiful verses in 1Thess 4:
“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as [do these] others… .”
At first glance, when reading the fourth chapter of Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, it would appear that Paul was telling us that when Christ returns from heaven those Christians “which are asleep” and those who are “dead” will both awaken and rise from the dead and then be physically “caught up” into the sky "to literally “meet the Lord in the air.”
Most Christians today have been taught to interpret this passage literally… in terms of its fleshly meanings. Is this what Paul originally intended? Or was he instead trying to convey a less obvious, spiritual message? How can we know for certain? Does Paul tell us how to interpret his writings? Can we find related statements elsewhere in Paul’s writings which help us to better understand what Paul was trying to tell us here? The answer, of course, is yes. Paul clearly tells us how to interpret his writings. And Paul clearly illustrates what he meant when he spoke of people being “caught up” into heaven.
HOW PAUL WANTED HIS WRITINGS TO BE INTERPRETED
Referring to the issue of interpretation, Paul instructed his listeners to: “earnestly study to show yourself approved to God, a workman unashamed, rightly dividing (ORTHOTOMEO) the word of Truth.” -2 Timothy 2:15 (IB)
Paul wants us to do two things. First he wants us to “earnestly study” the “word of Truth” . In other words, he wants us to know what his writings actually say. And then, secondly, he wants us to “rightly divide” or to correctly interpret what he was saying.
How can we know how to “rightly divide” the Christian message? That’s not too difficult… Paul tells us how. Paul wrote: “we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught us by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” -1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
According to Paul, the “word of Truth” must be “spiritually discerned.” The phrase “spiritually discerned” is translated from the original Greek PNEUMATIKOS ANAKRINETAI. The word ANAKRINETAI is derived from the original root Greek word… KRINO, which means judged, determined or interpreted. In other words, this passage can also be correctly translated as spiritually judged, spiritually determined or spiritually interpreted.
What Paul was trying to help us see is that literal minded people cannot correctly understand “spiritual truths” expressed in spiritual language. If Paul’s teachings are to be “rightly divided” they must be spiritually perceived or, in other words, they must be interpreted in terms of the spiritual message that they contain. Nowhere in his writings does Paul even remotely suggest that passages such as 1 Thessalonians 4 should be interpreted literally.
Paul clearly tells us that his teachings need to be spiritually interpreted. and that if we interpret his teachings literally… we will not understand what he was actually saying. What does this mean in actual practice? And how can we know if we are, in fact, correctly interpreting Paul’s “spiritual words”?
To help us get a clearer understanding of what Paul was trying to tell us in 1 Thessalonians 4 let’s begin by taking a closer look at Paul’s statements concerning "those [Christians] who “sleep” and the the “dead” Christians who will “rise again.”
First, ask yourself, how did Paul use these terms elsewhere in his writings? And then ask, how were such terms used elsewhere in the New Testament?
The New Testament writings contain a number of statements concerning topics such as… sleep, death, awakening, resurrection and rebirth. For example, in Peter’s writings we find a statement which says that: “the gospel was preached also to them are dead, that they might… live according to God in the spirit.” (PNEUMATI) -1 Peter 4:6 (KJV) If we were to interpret this statement literally, then we would have to conclude that Peter was telling us that the Gospel was preached to “dead” people in an attempt to convince them to rise from their deadness.
The same is true of Paul’s writings. For example, Paul told the Christians of Rome to start acting like they are alive. He wrote: “yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead.” -Romans 6:13 (KJV) Later on, in this same book, Paul again tells these Christians: “it is now the hour for you to be aroused from sleep.”-Romans 13:11 (IB)
While Peter and Paul both advised their listeners to wake up and to rise from the “dead” … Jesus told people that they had to get “born.” Jesus said: “I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God… That which is born of flesh is flesh (SARX), and that which is born of Spirit is spirit (PNEUMA). Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” -John 3:3-7 (KJV)
Peter and Paul clearly were not writing to people who had ever been physically dead, while Jesus was speaking to people who had obviously already been physically born. In another place, we can see where Jesus again used the analogy of “death” to refer to someone whom he had characterized as spiritually dead, spiritually misdirected or spiritually unaware. When Jesus told the man to “Let the dead bury their dead” (Luke 9:60-KJV) he certainly was not speaking of people who were physically dead and who were going to a funeral. Instead, Jesus again clearly was speaking symbolically. He was using a parable to describe people who had become spiritually misdirected.
(continued below)
“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as [do these] others… .”
At first glance, when reading the fourth chapter of Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, it would appear that Paul was telling us that when Christ returns from heaven those Christians “which are asleep” and those who are “dead” will both awaken and rise from the dead and then be physically “caught up” into the sky "to literally “meet the Lord in the air.”
Most Christians today have been taught to interpret this passage literally… in terms of its fleshly meanings. Is this what Paul originally intended? Or was he instead trying to convey a less obvious, spiritual message? How can we know for certain? Does Paul tell us how to interpret his writings? Can we find related statements elsewhere in Paul’s writings which help us to better understand what Paul was trying to tell us here? The answer, of course, is yes. Paul clearly tells us how to interpret his writings. And Paul clearly illustrates what he meant when he spoke of people being “caught up” into heaven.
HOW PAUL WANTED HIS WRITINGS TO BE INTERPRETED
Referring to the issue of interpretation, Paul instructed his listeners to: “earnestly study to show yourself approved to God, a workman unashamed, rightly dividing (ORTHOTOMEO) the word of Truth.” -2 Timothy 2:15 (IB)
Paul wants us to do two things. First he wants us to “earnestly study” the “word of Truth” . In other words, he wants us to know what his writings actually say. And then, secondly, he wants us to “rightly divide” or to correctly interpret what he was saying.
How can we know how to “rightly divide” the Christian message? That’s not too difficult… Paul tells us how. Paul wrote: “we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught us by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” -1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
According to Paul, the “word of Truth” must be “spiritually discerned.” The phrase “spiritually discerned” is translated from the original Greek PNEUMATIKOS ANAKRINETAI. The word ANAKRINETAI is derived from the original root Greek word… KRINO, which means judged, determined or interpreted. In other words, this passage can also be correctly translated as spiritually judged, spiritually determined or spiritually interpreted.
What Paul was trying to help us see is that literal minded people cannot correctly understand “spiritual truths” expressed in spiritual language. If Paul’s teachings are to be “rightly divided” they must be spiritually perceived or, in other words, they must be interpreted in terms of the spiritual message that they contain. Nowhere in his writings does Paul even remotely suggest that passages such as 1 Thessalonians 4 should be interpreted literally.
Paul clearly tells us that his teachings need to be spiritually interpreted. and that if we interpret his teachings literally… we will not understand what he was actually saying. What does this mean in actual practice? And how can we know if we are, in fact, correctly interpreting Paul’s “spiritual words”?
To help us get a clearer understanding of what Paul was trying to tell us in 1 Thessalonians 4 let’s begin by taking a closer look at Paul’s statements concerning "those [Christians] who “sleep” and the the “dead” Christians who will “rise again.”
First, ask yourself, how did Paul use these terms elsewhere in his writings? And then ask, how were such terms used elsewhere in the New Testament?
The New Testament writings contain a number of statements concerning topics such as… sleep, death, awakening, resurrection and rebirth. For example, in Peter’s writings we find a statement which says that: “the gospel was preached also to them are dead, that they might… live according to God in the spirit.” (PNEUMATI) -1 Peter 4:6 (KJV) If we were to interpret this statement literally, then we would have to conclude that Peter was telling us that the Gospel was preached to “dead” people in an attempt to convince them to rise from their deadness.
The same is true of Paul’s writings. For example, Paul told the Christians of Rome to start acting like they are alive. He wrote: “yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead.” -Romans 6:13 (KJV) Later on, in this same book, Paul again tells these Christians: “it is now the hour for you to be aroused from sleep.”-Romans 13:11 (IB)
While Peter and Paul both advised their listeners to wake up and to rise from the “dead” … Jesus told people that they had to get “born.” Jesus said: “I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God… That which is born of flesh is flesh (SARX), and that which is born of Spirit is spirit (PNEUMA). Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” -John 3:3-7 (KJV)
Peter and Paul clearly were not writing to people who had ever been physically dead, while Jesus was speaking to people who had obviously already been physically born. In another place, we can see where Jesus again used the analogy of “death” to refer to someone whom he had characterized as spiritually dead, spiritually misdirected or spiritually unaware. When Jesus told the man to “Let the dead bury their dead” (Luke 9:60-KJV) he certainly was not speaking of people who were physically dead and who were going to a funeral. Instead, Jesus again clearly was speaking symbolically. He was using a parable to describe people who had become spiritually misdirected.
(continued below)
K
Kam_Fanaian
Guest
In his letters, Paul also repeatedly employs Jesus’ symbolic parable of death. For example, in Ephesians Paul was speaking to Christians who were obviously very much physically alive, and yet, he advised: “Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead.”-Ephesians 5:14 (NIV) In what way were the Roman Christians asleep and dead? Certainly not literally.
If Paul was speaking in these other passages of something other than physical sleep or a fleshly death, then wouldn’t it be consistent to also apply the same principle of spiritual interpretation to 1 Thessalonians 4?
Consider, back in 1 Thessalonians 4, when we take a closer look at the entire context of Paul’s rapture passage, we can clearly see that Paul intended these passages to be interpreted spiritually. Here Paul concludes his statement about “those who sleep” by advising: “…so then, we should not sleep as the rest also do.”-1 Thessalonians 5:6 (IB)
If Paul actually did intended for his statement about “those who sleep” to be interpreted literally… then to be consistent, wouldn’t we also have to conclude that his other statement just a couple of verses later “so then, we should not sleep as the rest also do” should also be interpreted literally? Was Paul trying to tell us that he doesn’t want Christians to ever physically sleep again? Of course not. This is not physically possible. Even Jesus had to sleep. (see: Matthew 8:24) So, if Paul wasn’t speaking here of literal, physical sleep, then what was he actually saying?
Paul continues by providing us with some even more specific examples of what he meant when he spoke of “sleep” and “death” . Two thousand years ago, the Jewish people had failed to recognize the fulfillment of their prophecies. By not recognizing the return of Elijah from heaven as John the Baptist and similarly by rejecting Jesus as their Messiah they demonstrated that they had lost the true spirit of their teachings. This is what Paul meant when he called these people “blind”, “asleep” and “dead” .
In the Book of Romans Paul explained that some of these “dead” people were raised from their spiritual deadness when they awoke to the fact that the promises contained in their scriptures had indeed been fulfilled and that Jesus truly was the Messiah. Referring to these newly awakened people, Paul wrote: “A few have [recognized Jesus as the Messiah]… but the eyes of the others have been blinded. This is what our Scriptures refer to when they say that God has put them to sleep, shutting their eyes and ears so that they do not understand what we are talking about when we tell them of Christ… it is even more wonderful when the Jews come to Christ. It will be like dead people coming back to life.” -Romans 11:7 (Living Bible- Catholic Edition)
Can you see what Paul was saying here? The Jewish people of Jesus’ day obviously were very much physically alive. However, according to Paul, as a result of their misunderstanding and denial they were characterized as being dead… not physically dead but spiritually dead or spiritually unaware. Then, Paul explains that when these people finally began to understand the inner spiritual message hidden in their scriptures and when they woke up to the fact that Jesus truly was the Messiah… Paul says that this was like “dead people coming back to life” . This was something that was so wonderful that, metaphorically speaking, it was like coming out of the grave of denial and rejection and being carried up to the heaven of belief and certitude.
This is also what Peter meant when he wrote that: “the gospel was preached also to them are dead, that they might… live according to God in the spirit (PNEUMATI) .” -1 Peter 4:6 (KJV)
This is what Peter and Paul both meant when they wrote of those who are “asleep” and those who will “rise again”.
You can read more about these thoughts, which are explored by my friend Joel Smith, here:
bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/rapture.htm
With these thoughts now presented, may I ask, why is such a literal interpretation of the Scripture, so strongly adhered to by the Catholic Church?
Kam
If Paul was speaking in these other passages of something other than physical sleep or a fleshly death, then wouldn’t it be consistent to also apply the same principle of spiritual interpretation to 1 Thessalonians 4?
Consider, back in 1 Thessalonians 4, when we take a closer look at the entire context of Paul’s rapture passage, we can clearly see that Paul intended these passages to be interpreted spiritually. Here Paul concludes his statement about “those who sleep” by advising: “…so then, we should not sleep as the rest also do.”-1 Thessalonians 5:6 (IB)
If Paul actually did intended for his statement about “those who sleep” to be interpreted literally… then to be consistent, wouldn’t we also have to conclude that his other statement just a couple of verses later “so then, we should not sleep as the rest also do” should also be interpreted literally? Was Paul trying to tell us that he doesn’t want Christians to ever physically sleep again? Of course not. This is not physically possible. Even Jesus had to sleep. (see: Matthew 8:24) So, if Paul wasn’t speaking here of literal, physical sleep, then what was he actually saying?
Paul continues by providing us with some even more specific examples of what he meant when he spoke of “sleep” and “death” . Two thousand years ago, the Jewish people had failed to recognize the fulfillment of their prophecies. By not recognizing the return of Elijah from heaven as John the Baptist and similarly by rejecting Jesus as their Messiah they demonstrated that they had lost the true spirit of their teachings. This is what Paul meant when he called these people “blind”, “asleep” and “dead” .
In the Book of Romans Paul explained that some of these “dead” people were raised from their spiritual deadness when they awoke to the fact that the promises contained in their scriptures had indeed been fulfilled and that Jesus truly was the Messiah. Referring to these newly awakened people, Paul wrote: “A few have [recognized Jesus as the Messiah]… but the eyes of the others have been blinded. This is what our Scriptures refer to when they say that God has put them to sleep, shutting their eyes and ears so that they do not understand what we are talking about when we tell them of Christ… it is even more wonderful when the Jews come to Christ. It will be like dead people coming back to life.” -Romans 11:7 (Living Bible- Catholic Edition)
Can you see what Paul was saying here? The Jewish people of Jesus’ day obviously were very much physically alive. However, according to Paul, as a result of their misunderstanding and denial they were characterized as being dead… not physically dead but spiritually dead or spiritually unaware. Then, Paul explains that when these people finally began to understand the inner spiritual message hidden in their scriptures and when they woke up to the fact that Jesus truly was the Messiah… Paul says that this was like “dead people coming back to life” . This was something that was so wonderful that, metaphorically speaking, it was like coming out of the grave of denial and rejection and being carried up to the heaven of belief and certitude.
This is also what Peter meant when he wrote that: “the gospel was preached also to them are dead, that they might… live according to God in the spirit (PNEUMATI) .” -1 Peter 4:6 (KJV)
This is what Peter and Paul both meant when they wrote of those who are “asleep” and those who will “rise again”.
You can read more about these thoughts, which are explored by my friend Joel Smith, here:
bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/rapture.htm
With these thoughts now presented, may I ask, why is such a literal interpretation of the Scripture, so strongly adhered to by the Catholic Church?
Kam
M
mercytruth
Guest
Kam, with all due respect to both you, Joel Smith and the Bahai faith, the Catholic church does not always interpret the scriptures literally. As you know, Chilaism is not a doctrine of the church.
As far as the resurrection of the body is concerned, St.Paul repeatedly states that we do not receive a resurrected body like the one we now inhabit. Once again, just one quotation from St. Paul:
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (Phillipians 3:20-21).
This scripture is speaking of our current ‘lowly’ bodies being transformed, or metamorphised like unto the glorious body of our Lord Jesus Christ .
The scriptures that you quoted regarding ‘spiritual death’, or ‘sleep’ are duly noted, but are not applicable to the negation of the resurrection of the body.
Christianity has received her teachings from the Tanach, Jesus Christ and the NT. Our heritage is from the teachings that we have received from the Jewish people, whether it be from the Jewish prophets of the Tanach, Jesus Christ, or the Jewish apostles of the NT. The resurrection of the body is one of those teachings.
God’s peace.
Micah
G
GEddie
Guest
It is assumed that Lazarus died again, as did all of the “awakened” from death in Scripture, because they were simply restored to their original human bodies.
The Sadduccees sought to kill Lazarus later on; presumably they knew they could. Compare to our LORD walking through doors, appearing and disappearing, etc.
ICXC NIKA
The Sadduccees sought to kill Lazarus later on; presumably they knew they could. Compare to our LORD walking through doors, appearing and disappearing, etc.
ICXC NIKA
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Nita
Guest
Bodily resurrection is important to Catholics because it is what God taught us – part of His revelation to us. Jesus’ teaching about life after death included not only the ongoing existence of the human soul/spirit after death, but a future bodily resurrection. His apostles, obeying His command to go and teach naturally included His teaching about the resurrection.
Had Jesus/God taught that our bodies were to exist only the short time from natural birth to physical death, and our human immaterial soul/spirit would continue to exist eternally after physical death, then that is what Catholicism would have professed and taught. But as I noted above, that is not the message God revealed.
You make the statement “It rather seems to be assumed that a life in the body is preferable to life in the spirit,…” That makes it sound like humans can experience only one or the other in the next life!! Catholicism teaches that those who are saved will experience life in both their body and spirit after the resurrection. (Prior to bodily resurrection they will experience “life” in the soul only.)
I’m assuming you know that we teach our resurrected immortal bodies will be different from the mortal ones we now have.
I have some questions for you. As a human soul/spirit, why do you seem to find it preferable to exist eternally as a disembodied human soul/spirit only? Do Bahai’s profess that the spirit continues to be a human spirit – or is it ontologically transformed into an angelic spirit? Perhaps I should ask first if you believe in angelic spirits. If so, how would an angelic soul/spirit differ from a human soul/spirit in the afterlife?
It has nothing to do with causing doubt in the reliability of the Pope and Magisterium. Their reliability is as certain as all the other Church doctrines.
The footnotes on that statement reference 2 other incidents (Mark 5:21-42 & Luke 7:11-17) in addition to that of Lazarus where Jesus raised someone from the dead. They were brought back to life in their mortal bodies, not in resurrected immortal bodies. And so, at some future time they still experienced physical death.
Note that the Catechism says Jesus gave it as a “sign”. He showed He had power over death in the body.
Their souls/spirits are living; their souls have not been annihilated. Jesus was speaking to the Sadducees who did not believe in continued existence (body or soul) after death.
I’ll answer the last part first, since there is an answer to that. No, those microscopic organisms did not “sin”. A “free will” is required to be guilty of personal sin. Plants and animals do not have a free will.
As to the “present state of scientific knowledge”, it’s something I prefer not to go into. I don’t fall for it hook, line and sinker like many seem to - as tho scientists and science are the source of truth!
Now, as to the Scriptural teaching about death entering the world through sin, we definitely teach that it applies to humans - death in both the body and the soul. (It’s important to understand what Catholicism means by death in the soul - it doesn’t mean ceasing to exist or function.)
I don’t know of any** official teaching **where the Magisterium specified that death did not exist in plants and animals prior to Adam’s sin. If I am wrong on this, I would appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut from others – giving the sources. Among other things, from the beginning of creation God gave the plants to man and animals to be consumed as food. (cf. Gen. 2:9)
We do profess that Adam’s sin had an effect on the material world. The words used by St. Paul in Romans 8:19-22 for that effect are “futility” and “bondage to decay”.
K
Kam_Fanaian
Guest
Dear friends, I think where we require further thought and STUDY (as Paul asked us to do) is on the area of defining the term “body”.
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (Phillipians 3:20-21).
Surely lowliness and glorification are spiritual qualities? Yes they can manifest themselves physically, but when you feel lowly, you don’t go to a doctor to get medicine for it, right? When you are feeling lowly, you read the Bible and it raises you up from your lowliness, your spirit is reinvigorated. So surely, this passage again, refers to our SPIRITUAL bodies.
From 1Cor 15
"But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?. . . 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. . . 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.”
Please really look again and again at the words “spiritual body” in this passage, it will provide you with some insights, and my suggestion is to pray about it. Ask our beloved Lord to shine the light of Truth On this important matter
" The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." -1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
Surely this implies that mans spirit is the most important aspect of a human being. Without it we cannot understand the Word of God, and note Paul here talks about the spirit being able to understand, not our minds, not our bodies, but it is our spirit that is responsible for understanding things.
My dear friends, we must look at the true value of these verses, for their spiritual value, there is no wealth in the body, true wealth is in the spirit. Without the spirit, the physical body dies. Without the physical body, the spirit finds true reunion with It’s Maker. Why would I want the restricted confines of my physical body again, even if it is an immortal one?
God bless
Kam
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. (Phillipians 3:20-21).
Surely lowliness and glorification are spiritual qualities? Yes they can manifest themselves physically, but when you feel lowly, you don’t go to a doctor to get medicine for it, right? When you are feeling lowly, you read the Bible and it raises you up from your lowliness, your spirit is reinvigorated. So surely, this passage again, refers to our SPIRITUAL bodies.
From 1Cor 15
"But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?. . . 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. . . 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.”
Please really look again and again at the words “spiritual body” in this passage, it will provide you with some insights, and my suggestion is to pray about it. Ask our beloved Lord to shine the light of Truth On this important matter
" The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." -1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIV)
Surely this implies that mans spirit is the most important aspect of a human being. Without it we cannot understand the Word of God, and note Paul here talks about the spirit being able to understand, not our minds, not our bodies, but it is our spirit that is responsible for understanding things.
My dear friends, we must look at the true value of these verses, for their spiritual value, there is no wealth in the body, true wealth is in the spirit. Without the spirit, the physical body dies. Without the physical body, the spirit finds true reunion with It’s Maker. Why would I want the restricted confines of my physical body again, even if it is an immortal one?
God bless
Kam
N
Nita
Guest
Some Scripture passages that describe Our Lord’s glorious body after His resurrection:
- His body could be seen by human eyes and touched by human hands.
Mt. 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Hail!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshipped Him.
Mark 16:14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven…and He upbraided them…, because they had not believed those who say Him after He had risen,
Luke 24:36-40 …But they…supposed that they saw a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
- He had a body that could physically walk and talk.
Luke 24:13-32 …While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. … - He had a body that could consume material food.
Luke 24:41-42 …He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate before them.
- Status