The importance of a physical resurrection

[Nita]

…Surely this implies that mans spirit is the most important aspect of a human being. Without it we cannot understand the Word of God, and note Paul here talks about the spirit being able to understand, not our minds, not our bodies, but it is our spirit that is responsible for understanding things.

My dear friends, we must look at the true value of these verses, for their spiritual value, there is no wealth in the body, true wealth is in the spirit. Without the spirit, the physical body dies. Without the physical body, the spirit finds true reunion with It’s Maker.

We definitely believe that man’s spirit is the most important aspect of a human being. There is no disagreement between us on that point. But you are saying only Our Lord’s spirit was resurrected. His spirit did not need to be resurrected – IT WAS NEVER DEAD. Only His flesh underwent death.

From 1Cor 15

“. . . 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.”

Please really look again and again at the words “spiritual body” in this passage, it will provide you with some insights, and my suggestion is to pray about it. Ask our beloved Lord to shine the light of Truth On this important matter

Please read Paul’s words again. He’s talking about human “bodies”. “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; …”
“It” = body. (Natural and spiritual are modifying adjectives). A body is what is raised - but it is different from the way it was when it was buried; different even from what it was before death. It has been changed from a perishable, natural body into an imperishable body, a spiritual body, that is, a body totally subject to the soul/spirit.

If Paul meant only our souls would be raised, he would have said it. (Eg. It was sown an imperishable body, but only an imperishable spirit is raised.)

Why would I want the restricted confines of my physical body again, even if it is an immortal one?

Why do you think you would be restricted by a glorious resurrected body? Our Lord is in heaven in His resurrected body and it does not restrict even His Divine nature.

 

[Nita]

If Paul meant only our souls would be raised, he would have said it. (Eg. It was sown an imperishable body, but only an imperishable spirit is raised.)

.

Correct that to read “perishable”
(Was too late to just edit.)

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Some Scripture passages that describe Our Lord’s glorious body after His resurrection:

1. His body could be seen by human eyes and touched by human hands.
   Mt. 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Hail!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshipped Him.

Mt. 28:17 And when they saw Him they worshipped Him.

Mark 16:14 Afterward He appeared to the eleven…and He upbraided them…, because they had not believed those who say Him after He had risen,

Luke 24:36-40 …But they…supposed that they saw a spirit. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

1. He had a body that could physically walk and talk.
   Luke 24:13-32 …While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. …
2. He had a body that could consume material food.
   Luke 24:41-42 …He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate before them.

I would ask you to ponder the above verses as you consider what occurred in the resurrection.

Thankyou Nita,

This may very well be the case, and I am totally open minded to it. The reality is that there are several times in my life where I have walked, conversed with, partaken of spiritual nourishment from the spirit of my, now 26 years, passed on, father.

The interaction I have had with him has been so rich, so intense, that were I to be asked to write it down and describe it, I may very well have chosen some of the same words as you have quoted above. Lets not even bother describing some of my mothers’s experiences with his soul

The second thing to consider with Jesus’ resurrection is the reality that some humans are pronounced dead, but “wake up” several hours later. Could this possibly have happened in this case? I don’t know, but I’m open minded. There are several accounts of such things happening

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583914,00.html

Wouldn’t that make you at least be open minded about such a concept. Whether the Lord Christ’s physical resurrection occured or not, is not my chief concern. My chief concern is the “meaning” that the Catholic religion assigns to it. That is a really grave concern, simply because it creates “attachemnt” to a concept that is totally and unadulteratingly fixed into an “interpretation” which may or may not be right or wrong. But the major concern is that the mind has been closed on the issue, whereas the reality is that the interpretation of it is incredibly open.

Kam

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

We definitely believe that man’s spirit is the most important aspect of a human being. There is no disagreement between us on that point. But you are saying only Our Lord’s spirit was resurrected. His spirit did not need to be resurrected – IT WAS NEVER DEAD. Only His flesh underwent death.

Please read Paul’s words again. He’s talking about human “bodies”. “It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; …”
“It” = body. (Natural and spiritual are modifying adjectives). A body is what is raised - but it is different from the way it was when it was buried; different even from what it was before death. It has been changed from a perishable, natural body into an imperishable body, a spiritual body, that is, a body totally subject to the soul/spirit.

If Paul meant only our souls would be raised, he would have said it. (Eg. It was sown an imperishable body, but only an imperishable spirit is raised.)

Why do you think you would be restricted by a glorious resurrected body? Our Lord is in heaven in His resurrected body and it does not restrict even His Divine nature.

Hi Nita,

So can you define the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body, since by your definition they are “physical” entities?

Kam

 

[GEddie]

Hi Nita,

So can you define the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body, since by your definition they are “physical” entities?

Kam

The terms natural body, and spiritual body, are used in 1Co 15.

“Natural body” is the English translation of the Greek psychikon soma. Psychikon comes from psyche, which elsewhere is translated soul or life. The natural body of a human being is formed by, and expresses and holds, natural life.

“Spiritual body” is the translation of the Greek pneumatikon soma. Pneuma is breath or spirit. The human pneumatikon soma is formed by heavenly breath and expresses, and holds, spiritual life.

In each case the word soma means a literal, head-hands- and feet BODY.

Resurrection can only apply to the body. The word literally means a “rising again”. Since only the human body has lain down, only the human body can rise again.

Our LORD had solid hands and feet after Easter. A human being cannot exist without his or her body. Even if we are made to exist as “spirits” at one point, that would be only a temporary punishment. Ultimately we will have the same solid limbs HE does.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Thankyou GEddie

So, am I right in saying therefore that the Catholic Church believes that Jesus’ “physical” body is in heaven right now?

If so, is heaven a physical place therefore that can one day be discovered scientifically?

Kam

 

[jochoa]

Thankyou GEddie

So, am I right in saying therefore that the Catholic Church believes that Jesus’ “physical” body is in heaven right now?

If so, is heaven a physical place therefore that can one day be discovered scientifically?

Kam

I would say yes to the first question. To the second, heaven has already been scientifically discovered by Jesus.

 

[GEddie]

Thankyou GEddie

So, am I right in saying therefore that the Catholic Church believes that Jesus’ “physical” body is in heaven right now?

Yes. That is basic Church doctrine.

If so, is heaven a physical place therefore that can one day be discovered scientifically?

Kam

Not all “physical places” are necessarily scientifically discoverable.

Our eyes see only a fraction of what is; and our instruments see only what we design them to.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Ok…so, heaven is a place then?

Kam

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Yes. That is basic Church doctrine.

Not all “physical places” are necessarily scientifically discoverable.

Our eyes see only a fraction of what is; and our instruments see only what we design them to.

ICXC NIKA

Yes, but GEddie, we are talking about at least one human body, somewhere located PHYSICALLY and entirely in a location in this universe. Surely this is not about the sensitivity of a scientific instrument.

If we were talking about an electron somewhere in the universe I would say yes, this may be hard to find, but a human body??

Are you in any way wondering that this may be Harry Potter thinking?

God bless

Kam

 

[jochoa]

Ok…so, heaven is a place then?

Kam

It is a place and a state of being. In reference to the place, it is where the physically resurrected body of Jesus is. In reference to a state of being, it is the experience of happiness without losing any peace, which is done in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

So what does a “physical”, “material” heaven look like?

Kam

NASA has shared an image, which can be aligned well enough with the Bible to count as reasonable proof of the physical heaven for myself. Here is the concept to ponder:

In the following image, use the following name substitutions:
Quantum Fluctuations=Light of God
Afterglow Light Pattern=heaven
Dark Ages=earth
1st Stars=light for earth
Dark Energy Expansion=dividing the light from darkness



Now, consider the following alignment with the Douay-Rheims Bible:

Douay-Rheims
1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.
2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.
3 And God said: Be light made. And light was made.
4 And God saw the light that it was good; and he divided the light from the darkness.
5 And he called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.

Playful Interpretation
1 In the beginning Quantum Fluctuations created Afterglow Light Pattern and Dark Ages.
Thank you very much for your time and consideration!
2 And the Dark Ages were void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep;
3 And the Quantum Fluctuations made light, and the First Stars were made.
4 And Quantum Fluctuations saw the stars that it was good; and it expanded the dark energy.
5 And it called the light Day, and the darkness Night; and there was evening and morning one day.

So I envision it to be physically/materially similar to the “paradises” of earth.

 

[jochoa]

Yes, but GEddie, we are talking about at least one human body, somewhere located PHYSICALLY and entirely in a location in this universe. Surely this is not about the sensitivity of a scientific instrument.

I would say, the physical Kingdom of Heaven is not in this earthly universe. Therefore, it will require getting out of this earthly universe to personally scientifically discover.

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

jochoa, my dear friend, please, can you tell me where in the Bible you have sourced all the information from that you so kindly posted in your two posts above this one.

It’s bordering in fanciful imagination and man-made wishful thinking. With loving heart I urge you to stick to the Word of God for your answers, not speculative attempts to find external interpretations to match your possibly incorrect interpretations of Scripture.

Does it say “anywhere” in the Bible where there is a PHYSICAL heaven, where Jesus’ (and anyone else for that matter) physical body resides?

Can anyone answer this question?

God bless

Kam

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Secondly, what are the “paradises of earth” and “earthly universes”

I have never heard these terms in any Scripture or scientific journals. Did you make the phrases up?

God bless my friend

Kam

 

[jochoa]

Secondly, what are the “paradises of earth” and “earthly universes”

I have never heard these terms in any Scripture or scientific journals. Did you make the phrases up?

God bless my friend

Kam

I apologize for the confusion of terms. Please consider the following usage:
“Paradises of earth” - any place on earth which is perceived as beautiful.

Please recognize I stated “earthly universe” and not “universes”
“earthly universe” - If you will refer to the shared image from NASA, the earthly universe is any physical/material which comes from the dark ages. My thinking is there will always be a void as to which science cannot prove what lies “behind” or happened before the first physical/material event. It is on the other side of this firmament that the physical heaven exists.

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Very interesting jochoa…

…and the source for this authoritative knowledge is what exactly??

Kam

 

[GEddie]

Yes, but GEddie, we are talking about at least one human body, somewhere located PHYSICALLY and entirely in a location in this universe. Surely this is not about the sensitivity of a scientific instrument.

Not necessarily “this universe”. It is highly possible that higher dimensions exist, abOve what we know as “this universe”, where somas pneumatikon can reside, although unseen by our eyes or instrumentation.

In fact, since this universe is entropy–bound, I’d say that an immOrtalised human body MUSt reside outside it. Entropy and eternal life cannot coincide.

If we were talking about an electron somewhere in the universe I would say yes, this may be hard to find, but a human body??

Human bodies aren’t that big!!! Even if our LORD were on the moon, the Hubble would not have the resolution to see HIM!!!

He isn’t in outer space, anyhow, but we just don’t know how to search the infinities for HIM.

Are you in any way wondering that this may be Harry Potter thinking?

God bless

Kam

No more so than a LOT of modern physical theory.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

My friends, there is a lot of modern physical “theory” that is higgledy boop I agree, or at least it may be.

But what your saying and speculating here goes against scientific KNOWLEDGE, not “theory”

…surely, we have a dichotomy of truth here, one where science is proving one truth and the Catholic community’s “speculating” another truth based on what is obviously (according to scientific knowledge at least) an incorrectly literal interpretation.

Is a spiritual (for which religion was created for, wasn’t it???) interpretation so totally hideous for Catholicism to entertain???

Catholicism is hereby creating a new scientific direction based on a literal interpretation of Scripture to which it cannot fathom removing its attachment from.

Does that sound like how God works??

Kam

 

[jochoa]

jochoa, my dear friend, please, can you tell me where in the Bible you have sourced all the information from that you so kindly posted in your two posts above this one.

I apologize for not being clear enough in sharing the sources in the imagery of the physical Kingdom of heaven.

I got the picture from Wikipedia, which got it from NASA.
I used Douay-Rheims Bible, Genesis 1:1-5, which got it from the Catholic Church, which got it from God, the Holy Spirit to be more specific.

Regarding physical Heaven
To establish Jesus has a physical/material body after resurrection → John 20:27- Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

To establish the physical/material person of Jesus is going to a physical heaven →
John 13:33 “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.
John 13:36 - Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”

It’s bordering in fanciful imagination and man-made wishful thinking. With loving heart I urge you to stick to the Word of God for your answers, not speculative attempts to find external interpretations to match your possibly incorrect interpretations of Scripture.

Is not the promise of God, even concept of God, seemingly man-made wishful thinking from fanciful imagination?

Thank you for the continued discussion!

 

[jochoa]

Is a spiritual (for which religion was created for, wasn’t it???) interpretation so totally hideous for Catholicism to entertain???

As a Catholic, I believe both to be true (spiritual and physical heaven). Perhaps you are stereotyping Catholicism.

…and the source for this authoritative knowledge is what exactly??

The Holy Spirit. The analysis of the solution to creating the experience of limitless happiness with unbreakable peace, given a single person (body, soul, mind, and will) is the ONLY thing in existence. Along with the Teachings of the Church, Science, and Mankind.