The importance of a physical resurrection

[mercytruth]

Thankyou GEddie

So, am I right in saying therefore that the Catholic Church believes that Jesus’ “physical” body is in heaven right now?

If so, is heaven a physical place therefore that can one day be discovered scientifically?

Kam

Kam,

The realm of God the Father, of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the holy angels and all the saints can not be defined in human terms, except that it is the realm of the eternal.

The glorified body of our Lord Jesus Christ is eternal, not subject to corruption, and as such, abides in the eternal realm of heaven.

God’s peace to you.

Micah.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Anybody can believe in Caspar the friendly ghost spiritual resurrection–it’s quite another thing to really believe what the Catholic Church teaches–that yes on the last day the bones will come up out of the grave–be united with their souls and spiritual bodies such as what Jesus had will be a REAL REALITY!

Look either Jesus really was resurrected with a spiritual body that you could touch–that could eat fish–that Thomas could feel the imprint of the nail wounds–or our whole faith is false.

It really is that simple!

I don’t see wehat’s so hard to believe–if God can create the whole universe–the resurection of the body is a piece of cake.

The greatest feat that God ever performed was the justification of sinners!

Love so great that it could bear all the billions of human sins ever committed and make all of them right!

Every sin is infinite because God is infinite.

On the Cross Jesus INFINITELY paid the price billions of times!

And He loves us so much He still lets us choose to cooperate with Him or not as He accomplishes our justification and salvation with His grace!

What purity of Love–the greatness of God is inexpressible!

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

I apologize for not being clear enough in sharing the sources in the imagery of the physical Kingdom of heaven.

I got the picture from Wikipedia, which got it from NASA.
I used Douay-Rheims Bible, Genesis 1:1-5, which got it from the Catholic Church, which got it from God, the Holy Spirit to be more specific.

Regarding physical Heaven
To establish Jesus has a physical/material body after resurrection → John 20:27- Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

To establish the physical/material person of Jesus is going to a physical heaven →
John 13:33 “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.
John 13:36 - Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”

Is not the promise of God, even concept of God, seemingly man-made wishful thinking from fanciful imagination?

Thank you for the continued discussion!

Thankyou for the discussion jochoa

1. I am aware of the image you prodiced being from NASA, however, I would like to know what is your source that gives you the right to EQUATE that picture to what was written in Genesis?
2. Which part of that picture is the physical place where Jesus is currently residing in?
3. The quote you gave from John 20:27 describes Jesus’ physical resurrection, but that does not conclude that YOU will also be similarly resurrected.
4. The quotes you provided from John 13 demonstrate clearly that Jesus has gone to a SPIRITUAL world, the likes of which no mere mortal human can ever hope to draw near to. Where in those quotes in John 13 does it say the word PHYSICAL?
5. The concept of God is very far from fanciful wishful thinking. If you were to seek for the truth you would be able to very rationally explain the existence of a Creator. God lives outside the realms of physical, worldly existence. It is rational thinking to believe in another dimension that is beyond the world of “physicality”, a world known as the “spiritual world”…but to try and tell anyone on this earth who has studied even basic primary school science, that Jesus’ PHYSICAL body is “hiding” somewhere on this earth or in some other earth outside of this one, and cannot be found by scientific means, is quite sad

If Jesus is physically existent somewhere, then His matter will be discovered by the means by which we explore matter. That is called SCIENCE.

If Jesus’ body is outside of “matter”, and cannot be discerned by scientific means, then He exists in a “metaphysical” body, not “physical”. The definition of a metaphysical entity or body is a “spiritual body”

So the arguments proposed go against all reason. How is the Catholic Faith going to ever draw in and attract scientists with this thinking?

Are there any university grade scientists on this thread?

Kam

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

I apologize for not being clear enough in sharing the sources in the imagery of the physical Kingdom of heaven.

I got the picture from Wikipedia, which got it from NASA.
I used Douay-Rheims Bible, Genesis 1:1-5, which got it from the Catholic Church, which got it from God, the Holy Spirit to be more specific.

Regarding physical Heaven
To establish Jesus has a physical/material body after resurrection → John 20:27- Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

To establish the physical/material person of Jesus is going to a physical heaven →
John 13:33 “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.
John 13:36 - Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”

Is not the promise of God, even concept of God, seemingly man-made wishful thinking from fanciful imagination?

Thank you for the continued discussion!

Kam,

The realm of God the Father, of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the holy angels and all the saints can not be defined in human terms, except that it is the realm of the eternal.

The glorified body of our Lord Jesus Christ is eternal, not subject to corruption, and as such, abides in the eternal realm of heaven.

God’s peace to you.

Micah.

Micah, you are a very smart man, and I totally agree with you.

So by what you have written above, I can conclude that you believe that Jesus’ physical body did not ascend into the skies?

If you do believe that his physical body did fly to the sky, then if it is physical, and can be touched, seen and people can partake in food with Him up there, then you are defining Him in “human terms”…but you said that He cannot be defined in “human terms” thereby implying that it is beyond scientific, physical comprehension, therefore a METAPHYSICAL entity i.e spiritual.

Correct?

Kam

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Anybody can believe in Caspar the friendly ghost spiritual resurrection–it’s quite another thing to really believe what the Catholic Church teaches–that yes on the last day the bones will come up out of the grave–be united with their souls and spiritual bodies such as what Jesus had will be a REAL REALITY!

Look either Jesus really was resurrected with a spiritual body that you could touch–that could eat fish–that Thomas could feel the imprint of the nail wounds–or our whole faith is false.

It really is that simple!

I don’t see wehat’s so hard to believe–if God can create the whole universe–the resurection of the body is a piece of cake.

The greatest feat that God ever performed was the justification of sinners!

Love so great that it could bear all the billions of human sins ever committed and make all of them right!

Every sin is infinite because God is infinite.

On the Cross Jesus INFINITELY paid the price billions of times!

And He loves us so much He still lets us choose to cooperate with Him or not as He accomplishes our justification and salvation with His grace!

What purity of Love–the greatness of God is inexpressible!

Hi Jerry-Jet

So what is the difference between a “spiritual body” that you can touch and a “natural body” that you can touch?

Kam

 

[ConstantineTG]

Constantine TG, I would ask you the same question as Nita

If that is your belief, what Scripture can you provide to further my understanding of this concept, since it is new to me. My understanding has always been that the “true” reality of human beings is the spiritual soul and it is the soul that lives for eternity after the physical body dies.

Either way, some Scriptural references to your understanding would be greatly appreciated

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 17:31[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 24:15[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[jochoa]

1. I am aware of the image you prodiced being from NASA, however, I would like to know what is your source that gives you the right to EQUATE that picture to what was written in Genesis?

I consider God’s Word to be Wisdom, in that it can say one thing and validate multiple things. Therefore, if an interpretation demonstrates the Word as plausible, then why deny it?

1. Which part of that picture is the physical place where Jesus is currently residing in?

Please recognize that I would say, the center of the light is the physical body of Jesus, as the Father. I believe the physical body of Jesus, as the Son, resides in the area depicted by the afterglow light pattern. I know the physical body of Jesus, as the Holy Spirit, is on earth in the body of His Church.

1. The quote you gave from John 20:27 describes Jesus’ physical resurrection, but that does not conclude that YOU will also be similarly resurrected.

Amen to that!! But these three remain, Faith that He will raise me up, Hope that I will make it to Heaven, and my Love for Him and His people. And my goal in living is to become as perfectly loving as His Greatest Commandments command through the powers of the Sacraments of His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

1. The quotes you provided from John 13 demonstrate clearly that Jesus has gone to a SPIRITUAL world, the likes of which no mere mortal human can ever hope to draw near to. Where in those quotes in John 13 does it say the word PHYSICAL?

I definitely agree that Jesus has gone to a spiritual world, but I also recognize that the spiritual and physical can co-exist. Here on earth, we have physical bodies with the Holy (and unholy) Spirit in them. Regarding physical body: The question for me becomes: why after resurrection and revealing His physicality to Thomas, would Jesus lose the physical for only spiritual when going to heaven? He could have only resurrected spiritually and remained only spiritual.

1. The concept of God is very far from fanciful wishful thinking.

I agree with you on many points, however, would you say the promise of God is fanciful wishful thinking?

If Jesus is physically existent somewhere, then His matter will be discovered by the means by which we explore matter. That is called SCIENCE.

Would you consider physically touching an object and physically feeling its texture, density, weight, shape, etc. scientific enough to be declared scientific discovery of the object? I do, and Thomas physically touched Jesus’ body and felt its texture, shape, etc. Therefore, the physical body of Jesus after resurrection has already been scientifically discovered.

If Jesus’ body is outside of “matter”, and cannot be discerned by scientific means, then He exists in a “metaphysical” body, not “physical”. The definition of a metaphysical entity or body is a “spiritual body”

Please recognize, I am not claiming Jesus’ body is outside of “matter.” I am claiming that He made a firmament, a void, a barrier of darkness, of which we will be unable to see through. This firmament separates a physical/material heaven, and a physical/material earth.

So the arguments proposed go against all reason. How is the Catholic Faith going to ever draw in and attract scientists with this thinking?

Please do not let my understandings push you away from the Catholic Faith. Study the Catechisms, Doctrines, and Sacraments because they are the Truth. My understandings are only personal concepts which draw me closer to God and His Church, of which I personally find well-aligned with Catholicism and recognize they are many times seemingly far from alignment with Catholicism.

Thank you very much for your time, consideration, and excellent questioning and perspective!

 

[GEddie]

Hi Jerry-Jet

So what is the difference between a “spiritual body” that you can touch and a “natural body” that you can touch?

Kam

The source of the life in the body.

A natural body receives natural life from its parents, and that life is fueled by entropy-driven chemistry, until the body is too entropic to hold life.

A Spiritual Body receives life from the Spirit of God, and that life is fueled by His breath (pneumatikon soma, pneuma is Greek for breath) ETERNALLY!!!

The bodies look roughly the same (head, hands, feet, etc) and may have the same material. But the life under that human skin is altogether transformed.

ICXC NIKA

 

[mercytruth]

Micah, you are a very smart man, and I totally agree with you.

So by what you have written above, I can conclude that you believe that Jesus’ physical body did not ascend into the skies?

If you do believe that his physical body did fly to the sky, then if it is physical, and can be touched, seen and people can partake in food with Him up there, then you are defining Him in “human terms”…but you said that He cannot be defined in “human terms” thereby implying that it is beyond scientific, physical comprehension, therefore a METAPHYSICAL entity i.e spiritual.

Correct?

Kam

Kam,

First of all, I am not smart.

"If anyone thinks he knows something, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know, but he who loves God, the same is known of Him."

Eventhough the book of Acts says that he ascended into heaven in a cloud, I do not believe that means Jesus Christ in his glorified body ascended into a physical heaven of the sky, or of the universe. He ascended into the eternal realm of His Father, and of all the holy angels, and saints.

The fact that a ‘cloud’ took him there, does not imply that it was an atmospheric cloud. The Shekinah cloud of glory is a manifestation of the eternal, and as such is repeatedly spoken of in the holy scriptures.

Yes, Jesus Christ is a meta-physical being. He is Spirit, soul, and glorified incorruptible body. His soul was raised from Sheol, and his body was raised from the tomb. They were united in his miraculous resurrection… most likely on the same Jewish liturgical day as when the Israelites miraculously crossed the Red Sea, in body and soul. Israelites who were figuratively baptized in the baptism of Moses.

His physical resurrection over death, assures all of creation that it will be redeemed from corruption and death. Praise and thanksgiving be to our wonderful God and Father. Amen.

God’s peace.

Micah.

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

The source of the life in the body.

A natural body receives natural life from its parents, and that life is fueled by entropy-driven chemistry, until the body is too entropic to hold life.

A Spiritual Body receives life from the Spirit of God, and that life is fueled by His breath (pneumatikon soma, pneuma is Greek for breath) ETERNALLY!!!

The bodies look roughly the same (head, hands, feet, etc) and may have the same material. But the life under that human skin is altogether transformed.

ICXC NIKA

Hi GEddie,

What therefore is your understanding of John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” ?

You are mixing the spirit with the flesh in your statements above. How can that which is a spiritual body have hands and feet (which are attributes of the flesh)?

Kam

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Kam,

First of all, I am not smart.

"If anyone thinks he knows something, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know, but he who loves God, the same is known of Him."

For me at least, this type of humility fills my heart with love for you my friend In my eyes, that makes you even smarter lol!!!

Eventhough the book of Acts says that he ascended into heaven in a cloud, I do not believe that means Jesus Christ in his glorified body ascended into a physical heaven of the sky, or of the universe. He ascended into the eternal realm of His Father, and of all the holy angels, and saints.

The fact that a ‘cloud’ took him there, does not imply that it was an atmospheric cloud. The Shekinah cloud of glory is a manifestation of the eternal, and as such is repeatedly spoken of in the holy scriptures.

Yes, Jesus Christ is a meta-physical being. He is Spirit, soul, and glorified incorruptible body. His soul was raised from Sheol, and his body was raised from the tomb. They were united in his miraculous resurrection… most likely on the same Jewish liturgical day as when the Israelites miraculously crossed the Red Sea, in body and soul. Israelites who were figuratively baptized in the baptism of Moses.

His physical resurrection over death, assures all of creation that it will be redeemed from corruption and death. Praise and thanksgiving be to our wonderful God and Father. Amen.

God’s peace.

Micah.

Your understanding is significantly different to many, if not the majority, of Catholics, especially in this thread Micah.

Why do you believe that Jesus ascended to heaven as a “metaphysical” entity, yet everyone else on this thread believes He ascended as a “physical” entity?

What made you make such a conclusion my friend?

Kam

 

[mercytruth]

Kam, you wrote:

**Your understanding is significantly different to many, if not the majority, of Catholics, especially in this thread Micah.

Why do you believe that Jesus ascended to heaven as a “metaphysical” entity, yet everyone else on this thread believes He ascended as a “physical” entity?

What made you make such a conclusion my friend? **

I thought I clarified that our Lord Jesus Christ ascended to heaven as Spirit, soul and glorified body. Maybe our understanding of ‘metaphysical’ differs.

Here is the definition of the Greek word, ‘meta’:

Meta- (from the Greek preposition μετά = “after”, “beyond”, “adjacent”, “self”, also commonly used in the form μετα- as a prefix in Greek, with variants μετ- before vowels and μεθ- “meth-” before aspirated vowels), is a prefix used in English (and other Greek-owing languages) to indicate a concept which is an abstraction from another concept, used to complete or add to the latter.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta?oldid=0

Thus, our ascended Lord Jesus Christ is someone in addition to a physical human being. He is **glorified incorruptible eternal **physical being with the eternal Spirit and soul. (I don’t think I am misrepresenting Catholic understanding).

God’s peace.

Micah.

 

[GEddie]

Hi GEddie,

What therefore is your understanding of John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” ?

You are mixing the spirit with the flesh in your statements above. How can that which is a spiritual body have hands and feet (which are attributes of the flesh)?

Kam

I did not make up the terms.

A spiritual BODY does seem like a contradiction in terms, but it was coined not by me but by Saint Paul, under the inspiration (there’s that word again!) of the Holy Spirit.

It is the nature of a BODY to have hands and feet.

It Is the nature of a human being, as a thinking body, to have hands and feet.

Our LORD, by his resurrection, resumed not only HIS mind, but his head and limbs; because we were never intended to become “spirits” but BODIES inbreathed by the Holy Spirit.

You will not become a spirit, except as a temporary punishment. Your destiny is to be a headed and limbed human being, breathing GOD’s spirit in Eternity.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Kam, you wrote:

**Your understanding is significantly different to many, if not the majority, of Catholics, especially in this thread Micah.

Why do you believe that Jesus ascended to heaven as a “metaphysical” entity, yet everyone else on this thread believes He ascended as a “physical” entity?

What made you make such a conclusion my friend? **

I thought I clarified that our Lord Jesus Christ ascended to heaven as Spirit, soul and glorified body. Maybe our understanding of ‘metaphysical’ differs.

Here is the definition of the Greek word, ‘meta’:

Meta- (from the Greek preposition μετά = “after”, “beyond”, “adjacent”, “self”, also commonly used in the form μετα- as a prefix in Greek, with variants μετ- before vowels and μεθ- “meth-” before aspirated vowels), is a prefix used in English (and other Greek-owing languages) to indicate a concept which is an abstraction from another concept, used to complete or add to the latter.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta?oldid=0

Thus, our ascended Lord Jesus Christ is someone in addition to a physical human being. He is **glorified incorruptible eternal **physical being with the eternal Spirit and soul. (I don’t think I am misrepresenting Catholic understanding).

God’s peace.

Micah.

Hi Micah, when you say that Jesus ascended to heaven as “spirit, soul and glorified body” are you implying that those three entities are different to one another, or are they just different terms for the same, one entity?

If they are different entities, what is the difference according to Catholicism between the soul, the spirit, and the glorified body?

Thanks

Kam

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

You will not become a spirit, except as a temporary punishment. Your destiny is to be a headed and limbed human being, breathing GOD’s spirit in Eternity.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA

Hi GEddie

How can the spirit of man be even considered to be deemed a “punishment”. The soul or spirit if man is the source of all that is good manifested in man. It is the vessel by which man is connected with our Lord.

Maybe this piece of Scripture from Baha’u’llahs Writings will help you:

“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments. … When it leaveth the body, however, it will evince such ascendancy, and reveal such influence as no force on earth can equal … consider the sun which hath been obscured by the clouds. Observe how its splendor appeareth to have diminished, when in reality the source of that light hath remained unchanged. The soul of man should be likened unto this sun, and all things on earth should be regarded as his body. So long as no external impediment interveneth between them, the body will, in its entirety, continue to reflect the light of the soul, and to be sustained by its power. As soon as, however, a veil interposeth itself between them, the brightness of the light seemeth to lessen… The soul of man is the sun by which his body is illumined, and from which it draweth its sustenance, and should be so regarded.”

So how can the spirit or soul of man be considered a punishment?

Kam

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Your destiny is to be a headed and limbed human being, breathing GOD’s spirit in Eternity.

God Bless, ICXC NIKA

My dear friend, I already am (and assured of such) a headed and limbed human being breathing God’s spirit in Eternity…

…I think this may well now attract some questions from you

Kam

 

[jochoa]

So how can the spirit or soul of man be considered a punishment?

Here is a semantic concept to consider:

Living out of union with God is Hell.
If a spirit or soul is living in union with God, then the spirit or soul can be declared to be of God.
Therefore, the statement, “the spirit or soul of man” can imply living out of union with God or living in Hell.

 

[mercytruth]

Hi Micah, when you say that Jesus ascended to heaven as “spirit, soul and glorified body” are you implying that those three entities are different to one another, or are they just different terms for the same, one entity?

If they are different entities, what is the difference according to Catholicism between the soul, the spirit, and the glorified body?

Thanks

Kam

Kam,

Yes, they are different from one another, as several scriptures state. One of these scriptures is quoted by the Catholic Church:

lI. “BODY AND SOUL BUT TRULY ONE”

362 The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the “form” of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 “Spirit” signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

368 The spiritual tradition of the Church also emphasizes the heart, in the biblical sense of the depths of one’s being, where the person decides for or against God.239

God’s peace

Micah

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

My apologies for responding belatedly, friends…I have been heavily involved in spiritual empowerment programs with indigenous communities the past four days. Boy what a delight it was

May I therefore ask then, what happens to the bodies of those individuals who have been cremated and sprinkled out at sea, for example?

Assuming that this individual has lead a beautifully noble life in the name of Jesus, what happens to his body on the day of resurrection?

Kam

 

[mercytruth]

My apologies for responding belatedly, friends…I have been heavily involved in spiritual empowerment programs with indigenous communities the past four days. Boy what a delight it was

May I therefore ask then, what happens to the bodies of those individuals who have been cremated and sprinkled out at sea, for example?

Assuming that this individual has lead a beautifully noble life in the name of Jesus, what happens to his body on the day of resurrection?

Kam

Kam,

I suppose this potentially controversial question, deserves a potentially controversial question. Why is the body of the founding ‘prophet’ of your faith, entombed in a beautiful shrine on Mt.Carmel in Haifa, Israel? The gardens there are also beautiful. If the physical is not so important compared to the spiritual as regard to your faith, why is the physical beauty of God’s creation so meticulously manicured on Mt.Carmel?

But to answer your question, it is not mine to guess, nor judge what will happen to these aforesaid individuals on the day of resurrection.

God’s peace.

Micah