The importance of a physical resurrection

[GEddie]

Kam,

I suppose this potentially controversial question, deserves a potentially controversial question. Why is the body of the founding ‘prophet’ of your faith, entombed in a beautiful shrine on Mt.Carmel in Haifa, Israel? The gardens there are also beautiful. If the physical is not so important compared to the spiritual as regard to your faith, why is the physical beauty of God’s creation so meticulously manicured on Mt.Carmel?

But to answer your question, it is not mine to guess, nor judge what will happen to these aforesaid individuals on the day of resurrection.

God’s peace.

Micah

There is no need for guessing or judgement; Scripture states that embodiedness will be restored, irrespective of the fate of the natural human body. “That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies” (1Co 15).

What happens to a sown seed is much like what happens to a dead human body: it disintegrates, but the life within forms a new external being (body).

Instances such as bodies drowned at sea or consumed by fire, etc, are no different really from ordinary cases of human bodies in graves; the grave just takes longer. The body ceases being without life to hold it together. Someone dead over 100 years would no longer have a dead body to return to. But it is not needed: “There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body” (pneumatikon soma) (1 Co 15).

You are made to be someBODY, and will be so in Eternity.

ICXC NIKA

 

[jochoa]

May I therefore ask then, what happens to the bodies of those individuals who have been cremated and sprinkled out at sea, for example?

Assuming that this individual has lead a beautifully noble life in the name of Jesus, what happens to his body on the day of resurrection?

Kam

Excellent questions, my friend!

Please consider the following concept:
Given the following:
-Jesus came down from Heaven, and He was born of a Virgin
-We, both males and females, are created in the image of God.
-Catholicism knows the Body of God is physically present in the Eucharist, which has the image of a circle.
-Science has demonstrated that our life begins as a single egg, which has the image of a circle.

Therefore, from my understanding, our whole body comes from one cell-like entity.

So here is a simple personal concept, which I perceive as quite reasonable: God only needs the one cell-like entity from the beginning, of which He can place in another mother to physically resurrect the full body without sacrificing the free will of humanity.

To directly answer the questions, given this concept: The single cell-like body, of which the full body developed from, of the person was never cremated, nor sprinkled out at sea. God has it and awaits for the precise time, place, and manner to resurrect it.

Since Catholicism knows CCC#1038 - The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"621 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.”
Then the beautifully noble life in the name of Jesus will also be physically resurrected!

Thank you very much for the excellent food for thought! I look forward to further discussion!

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus’ pre-resurrection body didn’t pass through locked doors–His post resurrection spiritual body did!

Think of the spiritual body as being able to beam places like they do in Star Trek.

I know that isn’t a theologically precise answer but it is illustrative of one of the apsects of Jesus’ spiritual body and presumably after judgement we will have that type of body, too.

I don’t know what it’s like where there is no time and bodies can do things like that–the soul is always spirit–but evidently God can change a physical body into a spiritual one–in other words like Jesus’ post resurrection body where He ate fish–but didn’t have to eat–there’s no hunger in heaven–therfeore spiritual bodies don’t get hungry!

Anybody that claims they know exactly what a spiritual body is capable of–apart from reference to Jesus-post resurrection body or other scripture–I wouldn’t believe them!

As for speculators or adducers from other truth–you’d be hard pressed to do better than St. Thomas Aquinas.

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Kam,

I suppose this potentially controversial question, deserves a potentially controversial question. Why is the body of the founding ‘prophet’ of your faith, entombed in a beautiful shrine on Mt.Carmel in Haifa, Israel? The gardens there are also beautiful. If the physical is not so important compared to the spiritual as regard to your faith, why is the physical beauty of God’s creation so meticulously manicured on Mt.Carmel?

But to answer your question, it is not mine to guess, nor judge what will happen to these aforesaid individuals on the day of resurrection.

God’s peace.

Micah

My dear friend Micah. There is no controversy in your question, and I exhort you to question me on my understanding of Scripture with the knowledge that there is only LOVE in my heart for all of the members on this forum

I enjoy controversy sometimes, because out of controversy, the light of truth shines more brightly!

The reason why the physical bodies of the Holy Figures of the Baha’i Faith are interred and enshrined on Mount Carmel is simply because without those bodies, the Message of God would never have been able to be revealed to the human kingdom. So, in several respects, there are no disagreements in terms of the importance of the physical body between the Catholic and Baha’i Scriptural understanding.

Where the difference lies (I think from my understanding of what people have been saying on this thread) can be illustrated by a simple analogy.

During its time in the world of womb, the developing fetus is acquiring attributes and faculties it has no use for in the womb. These things are its arms and legs, its eyes, its mouth etc etc. What use has it for these things in the womb? Nothing

All it needs is the placenta and its umbilical cord, and the general conditions of the womb to develop the qualities it has no use for in the womb. These conditions become a VEHICLE for its physical development.

Suddenly when it is born into this world, WOW, it has use of these faculties, their use becomes totally apparent. Suddenly the beautiful appreciation for its umbilical cord and placenta is noted. We NEEDED the placenta and the umbilical cord in that world, we don’t need it in this one. We just acknowledge and rever the important role it all played as a VEHICLE for development.

Now move forward 70+ years and we reach the time for our physical death. Throughout our lives we realise that we have a soul, and it again manifests several attributes and qualities and using our body as a VEHICLE, the soul, uses the body to develop these qualities of the soul.

The body is revered as a VEHICLE for the devlopment of the soul, just as the womb is acknowledged for its role as a VEHICLE for the development of the physical body.

It is for this reason that those Blessed Bodies are enshrined in Mount Carmel, as they were the VEHICLE by which God’s Word was renewed, and a new heaven and a new earth was brought into this world, culminating in the fulfillment of the Message of the Son of God and the unification of the human race.

Peace and God’s grace be upon you all

Kam

Importance of the body to develop the soul, but only as a temporary vehicle, cf baby in mothers womb and importance of placenta and umbilical cord

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Excellent questions, my friend!

Please consider the following concept:
Given the following:
-Jesus came down from Heaven, and He was born of a Virgin
-We, both males and females, are created in the image of God.
-Catholicism knows the Body of God is physically present in the Eucharist, which has the image of a circle.
-Science has demonstrated that our life begins as a single egg, which has the image of a circle.

Therefore, from my understanding, our whole body comes from one cell-like entity.

So here is a simple personal concept, which I perceive as quite reasonable: God only needs the one cell-like entity from the beginning, of which He can place in another mother to physically resurrect the full body without sacrificing the free will of humanity.

To directly answer the questions, given this concept: The single cell-like body, of which the full body developed from, of the person was never cremated, nor sprinkled out at sea. God has it and awaits for the precise time, place, and manner to resurrect it.

Since Catholicism knows CCC#1038 - The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"621 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.”
Then the beautifully noble life in the name of Jesus will also be physically resurrected!

Thank you very much for the excellent food for thought! I look forward to further discussion!

jochoa, thankyou for these thoughts.

If I may say so, when you say, and I quote, “which I perceive as quite reasonable”, which part of the next few paragraphs of your post were “reasonable”

Reason implies that it appeals to some rationality. Faith requires rationality, otherwise it is mere superstition. Which part of “God grabbing a single cell” is rational.

It appears very much like superstitious thinking to me. My friend, free yourself from the trappings of superstitious thinking. The real magic should lie in the fact that it “makes sense”…

God bless

Kam

 

[jochoa]

jochoa, thankyou for these thoughts.

If I may say so, when you say, and I quote, “which I perceive as quite reasonable”, which part of the next few paragraphs of your post were “reasonable”

Reason implies that it appeals to some rationality. Faith requires rationality, otherwise it is mere superstition. Which part of “God grabbing a single cell” is rational.

It appears very much like superstitious thinking to me. My friend, free yourself from the trappings of superstitious thinking. The real magic should lie in the fact that it “makes sense”…

God bless

Kam

Thank you for the response!

Perhaps I should have stated, since the Bible knows Jesus was placed in the Virgin Mary and God created each one of us, then it makes sense that He could have placed each one of us in the wombs of our mothers.

Also, please consider the following concept regarding the interred and enshrined bodies:
If it is that important to respect and honor the vehicles which relay the message, then wouldn’t this point greatly to being Catholic. Because it is by the Vehicle of the Catholic Church that the Word of God was relayed to the kingdom of humankind.

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Thank you for the response!

Perhaps I should have stated, since the Bible knows Jesus was placed in the Virgin Mary and God created each one of us, then it makes sense that He could have placed each one of us in the wombs of our mothers.

Also, please consider the following concept regarding the interred and enshrined bodies:
If it is that important to respect and honor the vehicles which relay the message, then wouldn’t this point greatly to being Catholic. Because it is by the Vehicle of the Catholic Church that the Word of God was relayed to the kingdom of humankind.

Hi jochoa,

Yes I do acknowledge the vehicle of the Catholic Church, but the moment God spoke again through Muhammad, then He no longer had a need to speak to the Catholic Church.
Surely, with the amount of death the Pope himself has been responsible for throughout history, nevermind the abuse scandals of more recent years, it would be almost bordering on blasphemy to imply that God speaks through the Church to commit such atrocities, no?

In regards to your other comment relating to God placing a cell within all our mothers, yes that is true, but that is in no way consistent with Biblical teaching relating to the Deay of Resurrection.

God bless my friend

Kam

 

[PRmerger]

Yes I do acknowledge the vehicle of the Catholic Church, but the moment God spoke again through Muhammad, then He no longer had a need to speak to the Catholic Church.
Surely, with the amount of death the Pope himself has been responsible for throughout history, nevermind the abuse scandals of more recent years, it would be almost bordering on blasphemy to imply that God speaks through the Church to commit such atrocities, no?

I think you are incorrectly assigning heteropraxy to orthodoxy, Kam.

That is, bad practice of Christians does not equate to bad teaching of Christianity.

Or, another way to put it is: abusus non tollit usum.

 

[jochoa]

In regards to your other comment relating to God placing a cell within all our mothers, yes that is true, but that is in no way consistent with Biblical teaching relating to the Deay of Resurrection.

Thank you very much for the excellent food for thought!

Please note the following:
Since the science of How God will do these things is a mystery, I am only sharing concepts which I find to be reasonable, and I hope they may grow you closer to God. If they do not, please disregard them because they are only personal concepts.

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

Hi jochoa,

Yes I do acknowledge the vehicle of the Catholic Church, but the moment God spoke again through Muhammad, then He no longer had a need to speak to the Catholic Church.

I think I should note that this is not Bahai teachings, but Kam’s point of view. Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha did not teach that God “pulls the plug” on all previous religions when (as Bahais believe) He sends a new revelation. They taught rather that the coming of a new revelation breathes a new spirit into the existing religions and communities. Abdu’l-Baha says for example:

See how many conquering kings there have been, how many statesmen and princes, powerful organizers, all of whom have disappeared, whereas the breezes of Christ are still blowing; His light is still shining; His melody is still resounding; His standard is still waving; His armies are still fighting; His heavenly voice is still sweetly melodious; His clouds are still showering gems; His lightning is still flashing; His reflection is *still clear and brilliant; His splendor is still radiating and luminous; and it is the same with those souls who are under His protection and are shining with His light.
(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 152)

I don’t want to intrude Bahai teachings into this thread, and I applaud Kam’s attempt to get a grasp on Catholic teaching on the resurrection. I was just concerned his words might be seen as dismissive of the Catholic Church, and a simplistic way of picturing God’s ways of dealing with humanity. If you weren’t offended, forget I spoke.
:ballspin:

 

[teeboy]

But that does not really answer the question. Why is it important that the resurrection be physical, rather than spiritual? “Fixing fallen nature” is a spiritual result – so why was a physical rather than spiritual resurrection the necessary cause?

The soul is weakened via sin. A week soul leads to a weak body or weakened mind or negative emotions or all above. The soul can be healed via Jesus. The soul is healed by usage of the sacraments and acts of charity {corparal and spiritual works of mercy}.

This isy understanding and my experience.

The Father raised Jesus’ soul and body. Remember the severity of his passion when thinking about this. His beatings and crucifiction and stabbing were severe.

Jesus can do the same for our soul via the Eucharist and confession to a priest and charitable acts. A strengthened soul will lead to a strengthened body and mind and emotional state.

Convert and go to mass every day to receive his mercy healing of sin. Repent and act on his word and teachings of the Church about sacraments.

 

[Equites_Christi]

What kind of resurrection is there other than physical?

Everyone’s spirits survive death. Only Christ can lay down His bodily life and take it up again.

 

[teeboy]

What kind of resurrection is there other than physical?

Everyone’s spirits survive death. Only Christ can lay down His bodily life and take it up again.

Bodily ressurection at final judgement. But only with Christ (communion).

Everyone’s spirit survives death of flesh but not eternal death in Hell.

 

[PRmerger]

What kind of resurrection is there other than physical

Some have professed that Jesus’ resurrection was not a physical resurrection, but rather a resurrection of the spirit in the hearts and minds of his disciples. That is, while he didn’t really rise from the dead, his ideas did. And that is what his disciples were proclaiming in the first century.

:whacky:

 

[teeboy]

What kind of resurrection is there other than physical?

Everyone’s spirits survive death. Only Christ can lay down His bodily life and take it up again.

Some have professed that Jesus’ resurrection was not a physical resurrection, but rather a resurrection of the spirit in the hearts and minds of his disciples. That is, while he didn’t really rise from the dead, his ideas did. And that is what his disciples were proclaiming in the first century.

:whacky:

But contrary to doctrine and one truth.

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

I think I should note that this is not Bahai teachings, but Kam’s point of view. Baha’u’llah and Abdu’l-Baha did not teach that God “pulls the plug” on all previous religions when (as Bahais believe) He sends a new revelation. They taught rather that the coming of a new revelation breathes a new spirit into the existing religions and communities. Abdu’l-Baha says for example:

I don’t want to intrude Bahai teachings into this thread, and I applaud Kam’s attempt to get a grasp on Catholic teaching on the resurrection. I was just concerned his words might be seen as dismissive of the Catholic Church, and a simplistic way of picturing God’s ways of dealing with humanity. If you weren’t offended, forget I spoke.
:ballspin:

Thankyou Sen,

I may add that my entire approach to all the threads here in the Sacred Scripture section, is one of “learning” about the Catholic Faith and it’s teachings, through reason and reason alone. I have tried as best I can to detach myself from all Bahai thinking.

I am fully aware that reason is an attribute of the spirit, and I am trying to find a reasonable answer to my questions.

If I was to rely on faith and faith alone, with no application of reason, then I may as well become a UFO worshipper or something. Having faith in an alien Lord sounds like more fun!

So reason is my religion on this forum, and that is why jochoa’s thinking about a single cell being grabbed by God upon the sprinkling of the ashes in the sea, goes contrary to “everything” my reasoning spirit tells me from within.

In fact, while the bodily resurrection of Jesus sounds like, from reading the NT, it may be true, to apply that reality to all individuals on the Day of Resurrection, rising from their graves, again, goes TOTALLY against all that is real and reasonable from within my spirit.

A spiritual resurrection however sounds much more plausible. We are as dead spiritually, until our Lord returns, and resurrects our dead spirits into life, and we are reborn as manifestations of His Spirit, carrying out His work to bring about His major Plan for humankind.

For me, that’s not as much “magical thinking”

But I’m happy to be proved wrong, with a more reasonable explanation

Kam

 

[jochoa]

So reason is my religion on this forum, and that is why jochoa’s thinking about a single cell being grabbed by God upon the sprinkling of the ashes in the sea, goes contrary to “everything” my reasoning spirit tells me from within.

Please consider the following questions:
-Is it unreasonable for God to create every single human?
-Is it unreasonable for God to place every single human cell in the womb of mothers?
If those are reasonable, why is grabbing a single human cell after death unreasonable?
If those are unreasonable, wouldn’t this go against Biblical Teaching? Please consider Jeremiah 1:5

 

[GEddie]

Forget the idea of God grabbing a cell from the dead body.

Instead, consider this: HE is outside of time, as such, HE can take a time snapshot of your soma, at any or all points in your human life, and use this life-information to replicate the body on the other side of life.

A dead body is useless for life everlasting, as it cannot hold life, even with its eyes open and it’s lungs inflated. And a cell from the body would die without the rest of the body.

But our LORD will have no problem restoring a new body, pneumatikon soma, using only the soul and the time-impressions from the body (which would include the mind-impressions in its head).

God Bless, ICXC NIKA

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

GEddie, is it outside of reason to assume that the physical body is no longer required when we physically die? And that we continue with life in another realm which is only spiritual?



There are other realms outside of this one where our existence continues but is outside of our physical perception, just as this world is outside the perception of the baby in the mothers womb. Is that not reasonable?

Kam

 

[GEddie]

GEddie, is it outside of reason to assume that the physical body is no longer required when we physically die? And that we continue with life in another realm which is only spiritual?



There are other realms outside of this one where our existence continues but is outside of our physical perception, just as this world is outside the perception of the baby in the mothers womb. Is that not reasonable?

Kam

Scripture says we will have bodies.

The idea that we are meant to be “pure spirits” and that this is somehow desirable comes from philosophy, but not from our LORD. If that were true HE’d not have resumed his human body!

ICXC NIKA