The importance of a physical resurrection

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Hello Nita 🙂

Are you therefore saying that when your body dies, you are no longer considered a human being?

Thankyou for your response

Kam
No, I’m not saying we’re no longer considered a human being - more like we are incomplete. Our soul is still functioning even tho our body is separated from it and no longer functioning. But our soul is a* human *soul; it has human “instincts” if you will – that is, human thoughts and desires that seek to be expressed with and through our body. (Eg. laughter at something funny; smile when happy; desire to physically hug someone; …)
Our human soul needs a human body in order to be fulfilled/complete; to share itself.
Angelic souls are pure spirits and do not need bodies to be fulfilled/complete; human souls do. God is not going to change us from human beings into angelic beings.
 
Constantine TG, I would ask you the same question as Nita

If that is your belief, what Scripture can you provide to further my understanding of this concept, since it is new to me. My understanding has always been that the “true” reality of human beings is the spiritual soul and it is the soul that lives for eternity after the physical body dies.

Either way, some Scriptural references to your understanding would be greatly appreciated 🙂
Could you be a little more specific about which concept you’d like Scripture references for?

If it’s for the concept of a resurrection of our physical bodies, then here are some Scripture passages. Since I’m not sure if this is the concept you’re after, I’ll only give a couple. Let me know if you want more - for there are definitely more.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Romans 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.

1 Cor 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by His power,
 
Thankyou Nita 🙂

So having established that with Jesus’ physical resurrection, it has enabled all of His servants to also be physically resurrected on the Day of Judgement, what happens to the billions upon billions of resurrected humans that will now roam the earth?

…again I would wholeheartedly appreciate and Scriptural references to aid my study of this area of Catholicism

God bless you 🙂

Kam
 
OK, but in post #14, Mintaka, also speaking from a Catholic perspective, says “the Catholic Church has always taught that when the body dies, the soul goes to its proper place spiritually (Heaven/Purgatory or Hell); and then at the end of time, all souls are reunited with their bodies.”

So the soul living in heaven with God is sub-human because it lacks a body? Or am I confusing two different strands of Catholic theology? At the other end of the process, if the body is required to become a human, is the newly fertilized human egg a human? (I would say yes, but my idea of “human” has nothing to do with the body).
The embryo is indeed a human being; but what makes it such, is the genetic material and life process that, if not arrested or interfered with, will unfold into a living human BODY.

Without the body there is no human being; there is literally “NOBODY!”

Based on your last sentence, I’d respectfully submit that your idea of human is inaccurate.

ICXC NIKA
 
Thankyou Nita 🙂

So having established that with Jesus’ physical resurrection, it has enabled all of His servants to also be physically resurrected on the Day of Judgement, what happens to the billions upon billions of resurrected humans that will now roam the earth?

…again I would wholeheartedly appreciate and Scriptural references to aid my study of this area of Catholicism

God bless you 🙂

Kam
We hope and expect to be roaming heaven, not earth.🙂
 
So what does a “physical”, “material” heaven look like?

Kam
 
So what does a “physical”, “material” heaven look like?

Kam
The ‘new heavens’ are evidently a new solar system, galaxy, or even universe. Regardless, no one knows what the new heavens will look like. We have a few scriptures about the present heavenly bodies dissolving.

‘And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fade away, as the leaf fadeth from off the vine, and as a fading leaf from the fig-tree.’ (Isaiah 34:4)

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:10-13)
 
Hello again everyone 🙂

Thankyou all for your responses, I am learning a lot about the Catholic perspective of this outstanding concept.

May I ask, what is everyone’s understanding of 1Cor 15:35-44?

35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?. . . 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. . . 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Thankyou and God bless

Kam
 
Re-reading all the posts, it is evident then, that there are two heavens according to Catholic theology. One is the spiritual heaven that your soul resides in while your body is dead in the coffin (which begs the question, what happens to the cremated ones when Jesus Returns?), and the other is the physical one that we all come back to when Jesus heralds a “new heaven and a new earth” upon His return.

The questions arising from this are too numerous, but I will try to put them all for your consideration.
  1. Why is it written in the Scriptures that there will be a “new heaven AND a new earth”, when in reality heaven and earth are all the same place when Jesus Returns.
  2. What is the purpose of our souls when they have been “re-attached” (if you like) to our bodies come Judgement Day, since there is no longer a need to go to the spiritual heaven again since everything heavenly is all now physical?
  3. Do we therefore have eternal physical life on this “new earth”? How do you reconcile this new reality with the current reality that all physical things decompose? Or is there no such thing as physical decomposition in this new earth?
  4. Is this going to spiritual heaven, only to come back to physicality not some form of reincarnation?
Thanks again

Kam
 
Re-reading all the posts, it is evident then, that there are two heavens according to Catholic theology. One is the spiritual heaven that your soul resides in while your body is dead in the coffin (which begs the question, what happens to the cremated ones when Jesus Returns?), and the other is the physical one that we all come back to when Jesus heralds a “new heaven and a new earth” upon His return.

The questions arising from this are too numerous, but I will try to put them all for your consideration.
  1. Why is it written in the Scriptures that there will be a “new heaven AND a new earth”, when in reality heaven and earth are all the same place when Jesus Returns.
  2. What is the purpose of our souls when they have been “re-attached” (if you like) to our bodies come Judgement Day, since there is no longer a need to go to the spiritual heaven again since everything heavenly is all now physical?
  3. Do we therefore have eternal physical life on this “new earth”? How do you reconcile this new reality with the current reality that all physical things decompose? Or is there no such thing as physical decomposition in this new earth?
  4. Is this going to spiritual heaven, only to come back to physicality not some form of reincarnation?
Thanks again

Kam
Reverse order:

4). It is not reincarnation, as that is “your soul” being rebirthed as somebody new. You will not be born into a new life. Your same, dead self will resume being alive, with all your memories, etc.

3). Physical decomposition is the result of the law of entropy. But God can build bodies, and indeed, an entire world, free of it.

2). The “purpose of your soul” is not to exist independently. It is to be the life of your body. Once you are “reassembled” in Eternity, your soul and body will be inseparable. You will think with your body and move with your mind 🙂

1). Not only our being but all of the natural earth will be restored. Earth is not just a place where we walk around and wiggle our toes, etc; it is a place of amazing natural life. All of that will be taken into the new Heavenly life.

ICXC NIKA
 
Thankyou GEddie 🙂

So in answer to your response to question 3, what is the purpose if modern day science if in 20 years time, EVERYTHING on the planet will be governed by completely different and new physical and material laws??

Also, when you say, in response to question 2, that the “purpose of your soul is NOT to exist independently”, what exactly is it when your body dies. From everyone’s responses here it is going to be living independent of the body for quite some period.

Finally, you did not answer my question 1 at all 🙂
Why does the Scripture talk about a new heaven AND a new earth, when from all accounts earth and heaven will be the same place after the Day of Resurrection…?

Thankyou and God bless

Kam
 
Re-reading all the posts, it is evident then, that there are two heavens according to Catholic theology. One is the spiritual heaven that your soul resides in while your body is dead in the coffin (which begs the question, what happens to the cremated ones when Jesus Returns?), and the other is the physical one that we all come back to when Jesus heralds a “new heaven and a new earth” upon His return.

The questions arising from this are too numerous, but I will try to put them all for your consideration.
  1. Why is it written in the Scriptures that there will be a “new heaven AND a new earth”, when in reality heaven and earth are all the same place when Jesus Returns.
  2. What is the purpose of our souls when they have been “re-attached” (if you like) to our bodies come Judgement Day, since there is no longer a need to go to the spiritual heaven again since everything heavenly is all now physical?
  3. Do we therefore have eternal physical life on this “new earth”? How do you reconcile this new reality with the current reality that all physical things decompose? Or is there no such thing as physical decomposition in this new earth?
  4. Is this going to spiritual heaven, only to come back to physicality not some form of reincarnation?
Thanks again

Kam
I would suggest you - and all those participating in this thread - read the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this topic to get the Church teaching in its own language. The sections are not that long.
Read paragraphs #988 through #1050. Here is a link:
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2G.HTM

For example:
(vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2Q.HTM)
1042 At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. After the universal judgment, the righteous will reign for ever with Christ, glorified in body and soul. the universe itself will be renewed:
The Church . . . will receive her perfection only in the glory of heaven, when will come the time of the renewal of all things. At that time, together with the human race, the universe itself, which is so closely related to man and which attains its destiny through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ.
1043 Sacred Scripture calls this mysterious renewal, which will transform humanity and the world, “new heavens and a new earth.” It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head “all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth.”
1044 In this new universe, the heavenly Jerusalem, God will have his dwelling among men. “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”
 
Re-reading all the posts, it is evident then, that there are two heavens according to Catholic theology. One is the spiritual heaven that your soul resides in while your body is dead in the coffin (which begs the question, what happens to the cremated ones when Jesus Returns?), and the other is the physical one that we all come back to when Jesus heralds a “new heaven and a new earth” upon His return.

The questions arising from this are too numerous, but I will try to put them all for your consideration.
  1. Why is it written in the Scriptures that there will be a “new heaven AND a new earth”, when in reality heaven and earth are all the same place when Jesus Returns.
  2. What is the purpose of our souls when they have been “re-attached” (if you like) to our bodies come Judgement Day, since there is no longer a need to go to the spiritual heaven again since everything heavenly is all now physical?
  3. Do we therefore have eternal physical life on this “new earth”? How do you reconcile this new reality with the current reality that all physical things decompose? Or is there no such thing as physical decomposition in this new earth?
  4. Is this going to spiritual heaven, only to come back to physicality not some form of reincarnation?
Thanks again

Kam
Kam,

There is the third invisible heaven of the eternal God and the angels, heavenly Jerusalem and of all the saints. There is the second heaven of celestial stars, planets, etc.
There is the first heaven of the atmosphere and clouds where there is spiritual warfare.

There is a difference of opinion when the new heavens and the new earth will take place. Will it take place at the time of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, or after a period of time (called the millenium) during the reign of Jesus Christ on earth when the earth will be restored to its pre-Adamic fall into corruption and death. When the earth will be restored in its former Eden-like state, as the prophet Isaiah says in chapter 65:

Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reacha a hundred
will be considered accursed. They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands.They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them. Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the Lord.


Ultimately, the purpose of God is that ‘God might be all in all’ This is thought of by some to represent the new heavens and the new earth.

**For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. ** (from I Corinth. 15).

So, to answer at least one of your questions, Jesus Christ must come to restore to the human race and to creation what was corrupted by the enemy of our souls, who is called Satan. “But by the envy of the devil, death came into the world” Wisdom 2:24.

Through his temptation, Adam and Eve sinned and the entire human race now suffers from spiritual and physical death. Creation itself became corrupted. If Jesus Christ does not restore to God’s creation what Satan destroyed, then Satan would be the victor. As it is, by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ is the hope for ourselves, and for all of creation.

Kam, these are my comments that I have come to understand from the scriptures and some of the early church fathers. They do not necessarily reflect all that is Catholic teaching on this subject. So, take my comments with a grain of salt.

By the way, the previous post explains Catholic teaching, as by now you discover.
God’s peace be with you.
Micah
 
Micah, your posted thoughts above are outstanding and I thank you for posting them. It has filled my mind with a plethora of thoughts. However, it is getting incredibly late here in Australia, so I will respond tomorrow.

Thankyou my friends and thankyou also Nita, I will pull up the CC and study it again 🙂

Kam
 
Kam,

…
There is a difference of opinion when the new heavens and the new earth will take place. Will it take place at the time of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, or after a period of time (called the millenium) during the reign of Jesus Christ on earth when the earth will be restored to its pre-Adamic fall into corruption and death. When the earth will be restored in its former Eden-like state, as the prophet Isaiah says in chapter 65:

…
Kam, these are my comments that I have come to understand from the scriptures and some of the early church fathers. They do not necessarily reflect all that is Catholic teaching on this subject. So, take my comments with a grain of salt.
Hi Micah,
The 1000 year reign you speak of sounds like what is called “millenarianism” or “chiliasm”. I think you should know that it is contrary to Church teaching.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
676. The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.
(vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm)

Also, from Denzinger “The Sources of Catholic Dogma” - #2296:
Millenarianism (Chiliasm)
[Decree of the Holy Office, July 21, 1944]
In recent times on several occasions this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.

(Sorry I can’t provide a link to an online text. It used to be available at www.catecheticsonline.com but that site isn’t working at the present.)
 
Hi Micah,
The 1000 year reign you speak of sounds like what is called “millenarianism” or “chiliasm”. I think you should know that it is contrary to Church teaching.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
676. The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.
(vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm)

Also, from Denzinger “The Sources of Catholic Dogma” - #2296:
Millenarianism (Chiliasm)
[Decree of the Holy Office, July 21, 1944]
In recent times on several occasions this Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has been asked what must be thought of the system of mitigated Millenarianism, which teaches, for example, that Christ the Lord before the final judgment, whether or not preceded by the resurrection of the many just, will come visibly to rule over this world. The answer is: The system of mitigated Millenarianism cannot be taught safely.
This is why I said what I did.

Many of the early church fathers believed in the millenium. Such as Justin Martyr, Bishop Irenaeus, Tertullian. Here is what Papias said, who heard it from Polycarp and John:

**there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth (Fragments of Papias, VI. See also Eusebius, Church History, Book 3, XXXIX, 12).**I

In like manner, [He said] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples, and seeds, and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and be in perfect subjection to man." [Testimony is borne to these things in writing by Papias, an ancient man, who was a hearer of John and a friend of Polycarp, in the fourth of his books; for five books were composed by him…] (Fragments of Papias, IV).

I think for the sake of early church history, these early church fathers should not be ignored.

God’s peace.
 
This is why I said what I did.

Many of the early church fathers believed in the millenium. Such as Justin Martyr, Bishop Irenaeus, Tertullian. Here is what Papias said, who heard it from Polycarp and John:

**there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth (Fragments of Papias, VI. See also Eusebius, Church History, Book 3, XXXIX, 12).**I

In like manner, [He said] that a grain of wheat would produce ten thousand ears, and that every ear would have ten thousand grains, and every grain would yield ten pounds of clear, pure, fine flour; and that apples, and seeds, and grass would produce in similar proportions; and that all animals, feeding then only on the productions of the earth, would become peaceable and harmonious, and be in perfect subjection to man." [Testimony is borne to these things in writing by Papias, an ancient man, who was a hearer of John and a friend of Polycarp, in the fourth of his books; for five books were composed by him…] (Fragments of Papias, IV).

I think for the sake of early church history, these early church fathers should not be ignored.

God’s peace.
I am aware of those writings. And some of the ECF’s also thought the second coming and the end of the world/final judgement were imminent. They were wrong – as they, and later theologians, have been about some other matters that eventually were clarified and declared doctrine. It often takes time for the correct doctrine to be ironed out and articulated by the Magisterium.

Writings by the ECF’s do no have the same authority as the Magisterium or the CCC.
 
This is why I said what I did.

Many of the early church fathers believed in the millenium. Such as Justin Martyr, Bishop Irenaeus, Tertullian. Here is what Papias said, who heard it from Polycarp and John:

there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth (Fragments of Papias, VI. See also Eusebius, Church History, Book 3, XXXIX, 12).I

.
Here is the Eusebius (also considered an ECF) reference you give above:
12. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth. I suppose he got these ideas through a misunderstanding of the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things said by them were spoken mystically in figures.
  1. For he appears to have been of very limited understanding, as one can see from his discourses. But it was due to him that so many of the Church Fathers after him adopted a like opinion, urging in their own support the antiquity of the man; as for instance Irenæus and any one else that may have proclaimed similar views.
    newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm
 
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