The infallable pope

[ron77nyc]

Catholics are bound by their baptismal promises to believe what the Church teaches. If you reject your vow to your baptism, you are lying to yourself.

I think the problem lies with you and your doubt about the Catholic faith.

I would like to add that Catholic Answers is a lay organization for Evangelizing and Apologetics.

Let me inform you of the mission statement of Catholic Answers:

This is strictly a Catholic lay organization and it is not run by the religious orders. There are religious priest such as Fr. Serpa but his service is as a “Chaplain” for Catholic Answers, much like a Catholic chaplain in the military.

The people you talk about and the people who are kind enough to provide answers on this forum are obviously serving and are truly defending the Church with pure motives. What I don’t like and don’t trust is the hierarchy of a church, government or big corporation that says: “Here you go. We have all the rules set up for you. You follow them to the best of your ability but please don’t be upset if we don’t.” We’re all seeing a lot of that today and I’m tired of it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The people you talk about and the people who are kind enough to provide answers on this forum are obviously serving and are truly defending the Church with pure motives. What I don’t like and don’t trust is the hierarchy of a church, government or big corporation that says: “Here you go. We have all the rules set up for you. You follow them to the best of your ability but please don’t be upset if we don’t.” We’re all seeing a lot of that today and I’m tired of it.

You have a problem with Jesus Christ because he set up the Church the way it is.

 

[Peter_J]

If you go to one priest you will get consistent answers. If you go to 5 priests you will get differences of opinions.
I’ve already heard enough homilies to know that there are issues of differences between the parish priests and Church hierarchy.

Hi again. (I was away from the computer for a few hours.)

Diversity of opinion is relative thing.

I can’t promise you that every priest will tell you exactly what every other priest will, but I am sure that there’s much much less “differences of opinions” among parish priests than among all of us posters/bloggers on the internet.

 

[ron77nyc]

You have a problem with Jesus Christ because he set up the Church the way it is.

That is putting a really big twist on what I said. I included churches, governments and big corporations.

 

[Mannyfit75]

That is putting a really big twist on what I said. I included churches, governments and big corporations.

Yes but the head of the Church is Jesus Christ. He is technically the CEO of the Church.

 

[ron77nyc]

Yes but the head of the Church is Jesus Christ. He is technically the CEO of the Church.

Here is what Jesus said about the Pharisees:
Matthew 23: They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Do you think all the popes and bishops took this seriously?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Do you think all the popes and bishops took this seriously?

The majority of them did. There 266 Popes and only 12 are bad Popes. That is comparable to 1 bad Apostle (Judas) and 11 faithful Apostles.

Out of those 266 Popes,78 popes are Canonized Saints and 10 more are beatified, which means they were awesome popes

 

[rinnie]

Here is what Jesus said about the Pharisees:
Matthew 23: They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Do you think all the popes and bishops took this seriously?

I dont know Ron what do you consider seriously, I know in the Roman Catholic CHurch Father has given up his rights to Family, a wife and kids of his own to serve God. He lives for the Church, Every single moment in his life seems to be teaching the word of God, or helping others in great need. Always having people complain to him. no matter what he does. Blaming him and God for the mistakes in their lives that they make. Trying to keep open the Church with the dollars people give, if that. But still makes do.

And thats just a Priest, I can only imagine the life a Bishop has, the whole Parish’s in the area falls on his shoulder. No matter what happens its his fault.

Now we got the Pope put the Priests dutys and then add the Bishops etc and then he gets it all dropped in his lap. What ever happens its his Church is his fault. So yes to dedicate your entire life to prayer and Christ and his CHurch I would say thats pretty serious.

As far as the mistakes made in history i dont think there is a single person in this world who can judge them. So they may have made mistakes failed. So what now, dont forgive them. lets dwell on what they did wrong. Is that what God wants, What ever happened to w hat my Mother always said to me. Dont worry about their sins, you are not responsible for them, You worry about your own sins, if you just worry about yourself you wont have time to worry about others,

 

[ron77nyc]

I dont know Ron what do you consider seriously, I know in the Roman Catholic CHurch Father has given up his rights to Family, a wife and kids of his own to serve God. He lives for the Church, Every single moment in his life seems to be teaching the word of God, or helping others in great need. Always having people complain to him. no matter what he does. Blaming him and God for the mistakes in their lives that they make. Trying to keep open the Church with the dollars people give, if that. But still makes do.

And thats just a Priest, I can only imagine the life a Bishop has, the whole Parish’s in the area falls on his shoulder. No matter what happens its his fault.

Now we got the Pope put the Priests dutys and then add the Bishops etc and then he gets it all dropped in his lap. What ever happens its his Church is his fault. So yes to dedicate your entire life to prayer and Christ and his CHurch I would say thats pretty serious.

As far as the mistakes made in history i dont think there is a single person in this world who can judge them. So they may have made mistakes failed. So what now, dont forgive them. lets dwell on what they did wrong. Is that what God wants, What ever happened to w hat my Mother always said to me. Dont worry about their sins, you are not responsible for them, You worry about your own sins, if you just worry about yourself you wont have time to worry about others,

I didn’t even want to start this dicussion but Manny accused me of finding fault with Jesus. My local parish is one of the biggest in New York and it only has 2 priests so I know what you’re talking about. My original complaint was with the hierarchies of churches, governments and corporations. If someone wants to embellish that into something else that’s your business.

 

[rinnie]

I didn’t even want to start this dicussion but Manny accused me of finding fault with Jesus. My local parish is one of the biggest in New York and it only has 2 priests so I know what you’re talking about. My original complaint was with the hierarchies of churches, governments and corporations. If someone wants to embellish that into something else that’s your business.

I understand Ron but remember we want to hold our Church in the highest light. I understand about how the goverments etc, are not what God wanted, but let stick together and hold his Church at least in the hightest Light we can. Thats all we have Left. That is the only truth that is left standing after all. THe Catholic Church. So lets all try to do our best to stick together and remember the golden rule. Im sure Manny didnt mean it that way. We all have a way of letting our anger get ahead if us, Im probally at the top of the list. But lets remember we want to help build the Church back up where it belongs.

 

[guanophore]

And I might add that to call Boniface or any other man “his holiness” is wrong. Where is that in the Bible?

Such a question reveals an incorrect assumption on the part of the inquirer that everything that is true and right will be found in the Bible.

 

[mercygate]

Such a question reveals an incorrect assumption on the part of the inquirer that everything that is true and right will be found in the Bible.

Actually, “his holiness” IS in the Bible. The Greek word translated as “saint” by the KJV and other English translations is “hagios” (plural: “hagioi”). Non-Catholics don’t have a problem with referring to Christians as “saints” – but the word “hagios” does double-duty in Greek meaning,“holy one” and either “holy one” or “saint” as an adjective. So “Holiness” is simply a Pauline custom applied to the Pope.

In the East, and historically in the West as well, bishops and patriarchs are referred to with titles, such as, “Your Serenity,” “Your Beatitude,” or “Your Grace.” More common is “Your Reverence.”

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Here is how it fits: both are wrong!!!
Here is what Peter preached. It applies here.

ACTS 15
After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.”

Problem: St. James, not St. Peter, made the definition of the Council.

 

[guanophore]

How do you explain this:

Pope Boniface VIII issued the ex cathedra bull Unam Sanctam in 1302 which defined that “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Jesus gave the Keys to Peter, and charged him to “feed my sheep”. This is the Petrine gift. This has been passed on to the successors of Peter continually for 2000 years. There is only one shepherd,a nd one flock. It remains the duty of the Shepherd to feed the members of the flock, even if they refuse to eat the food. You are a subject, although you may be a rebellious one.

Pope Pius XII, A. D. 1939-1958, taught the same thing:
“And therefore if a man refuses to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor an they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit. …]

This is why the Church calls Protestants “separated”. To some degree, they are separated from the unity and are divided from the Faith given to us by the Apostles.

Pope Benedict XV, A. D. 1914-1922: “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

There is no salvation in anyone else, no other name under heaven by which we may be saved.

I’ve been looking for answers but find more questions.

This is a noble condition for a questing soul seeking Truth.

Do you have to be a Catholic to be saved or not?

Jesus did not found “churches” but only one Church. He only has one Body. Therefore, all saved persons are members of His One Body. All Christians derive the bulk of their doctrine from Catholicism, and distinguish themselves on the basis of how they are “not” Catholic. To that extent, they are improperly joined to the one Body of Christ, through which we are saved.

The older popes were very clear about what they thought of non-Catholics. You had to be a baptized member of the Church to be saved. All those outside the Church were damned to eternal punishment.

The Apostles taught that baptism is the normative means by which we become members of the One Body of Christ.

Yes, by default, all those who do not come to Christ are lost. This is the result of the fall of man, and the consequence of original sin.

Mark 16:16-17
16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned."

The problem with those sources is that they are employed by the Church and therefore they are bound by oaths and loyalty to her. They will never say anything that will hurt the Church even if they believe the Church is wrong. It’s their job.

Actually, not all those who have taken oaths are faithful to them, and some do hurt the Church and speak untruths. You are right, it is their job to support the Teachings that were handed down to us by the Apostles, but some fall down on the job.

 

[guanophore]

That is putting a really big twist on what I said. I included churches, governments and big corporations.

You did indeed, but these other organizations do not have HIs promise that He will be with them until the end of the age, not leave them orphaned, or that the gates of hell will not prevail. They do not have the promised Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth.

The difference between the government of the Church, and that of the world, is that the Church has as her head Jesus Himself, and her soul is the Holy Spirit.

That is why not trusting the Church is not trusting Christ.

Here is what Jesus said about the Pharisees:
Matthew 23: They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

“Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 “But the greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 “Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Do you think all the popes and bishops took this seriously?

I think some of them have sinned in this regard.Charging the Church with the sins of the fallible men joined to her is where the error lies. Men err, the Holy Bride of Christ does not, because He keeps her pure.

Also, remember that Jesus affirmed that the disciples should “do all which they tell you” even though they were hypocrites because they “sit on the seat of Moses”, which means they held the teaching authority appointed by God.

 

[ron77nyc]

Jesus gave the Keys to Peter, and charged him to “feed my sheep”. This is the Petrine gift. This has been passed on to the successors of Peter continually for 2000 years. There is only one shepherd,a nd one flock. It remains the duty of the Shepherd to feed the members of the flock, even if they refuse to eat the food. You are a subject, although you may be a rebellious one.

This is why the Church calls Protestants “separated”. To some degree, they are separated from the unity and are divided from the Faith given to us by the Apostles.

There is no salvation in anyone else, no other name under heaven by which we may be saved.

This is a noble condition for a questing soul seeking Truth.

Jesus did not found “churches” but only one Church. He only has one Body. Therefore, all saved persons are members of His One Body. All Christians derive the bulk of their doctrine from Catholicism, and distinguish themselves on the basis of how they are “not” Catholic. To that extent, they are improperly joined to the one Body of Christ, through which we are saved.

The Apostles taught that baptism is the normative means by which we become members of the One Body of Christ.

Yes, by default, all those who do not come to Christ are lost. This is the result of the fall of man, and the consequence of original sin.

Mark 16:16-17
16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned."

Actually, not all those who have taken oaths are faithful to them, and some do hurt the Church and speak untruths. You are right, it is their job to support the Teachings that were handed down to us by the Apostles, but some fall down on the job.

 

[ron77nyc]

You did indeed, but these other organizations do not have HIs promise that He will be with them until the end of the age, not leave them orphaned, or that the gates of hell will not prevail. They do not have the promised Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth.

The difference between the government of the Church, and that of the world, is that the Church has as her head Jesus Himself, and her soul is the Holy Spirit.

That is why not trusting the Church is not trusting Christ.

I think some of them have sinned in this regard.Charging the Church with the sins of the fallible men joined to her is where the error lies. Men err, the Holy Bride of Christ does not, because He keeps her pure.

Also, remember that Jesus affirmed that the disciples should “do all which they tell you” even though they were hypocrites because they “sit on the seat of Moses”, which means they held the teaching authority appointed by God.

I think you are missing my point. The thread is about papal infallibility. My reason for referring to quotes from popes in the past is to make clear what the Church has always taught and that is “No salvation for the non-Catholic.” Baptism in a Catholic Church and placing yourself under the authority of the Pope was necessary for salvation. If a Pope today says otherwise then which one is infallible?

The reason I put churches, governments and big corporations in the same category is because they all set up rules for those in submission to them but do not follow the rules themselves.

 

[guanophore]

I think you are missing my point. The thread is about papal infallibility. My reason for referring to quotes from popes in the past is to make clear what the Church has always taught and that is “No salvation for the non-Catholic.”

I did get your point. What you have to understand is that there were no churches besides the Catholic, and there being only one Church, it is not possible to have salvation outside of it. The teaching of the Church has not changed.

Baptism in a Catholic Church and placing yourself under the authority of the Pope was necessary for salvation. If a Pope today says otherwise then which one is infallible?

When one is baptized, one comes under the authority of the Pope. Jesus only founded one Church, and only gave the care and feeding of it to Peter. Everyone who is saved is a member of the One Church, because all saved persons are members of the Body of Christ.

If a Pope says otherwise, then he is a heretic.

The reason I put churches, governments and big corporations in the same category is because they all set up rules for those in submission to them but do not follow the rules themselves.

This is definitely a reflection of the fallen nature of man. We see this in Acts with Peter. Although Jesus put Peter in charge of feeding and caring for the flock, he acted hypocritically. After he convinced the Council in Jerusalem that Christians are not bound by Mosaic Law, he then when to Antioch and behaved like a separated Jew among the Gentiles, and even drew some of them away with him.

Behaving hypocritically does not negate the truth.

 

[ron77nyc]

I did get your point. What you have to understand is that there were no churches besides the Catholic, and there being only one Church, it is not possible to have salvation outside of it. The teaching of the Church has not changed.

When one is baptized, one comes under the authority of the Pope. Jesus only founded one Church, and only gave the care and feeding of it to Peter. Everyone who is saved is a member of the One Church, because all saved persons are members of the Body of Christ.

If a Pope says otherwise, then he is a heretic.

Are you saying that a person baptized in a church that is not under the authority of the Pope has a Catholic baptism and is part of the Body of Christ?

 

[guanophore]

Are you saying that a person baptized in a church that is not under the authority of the Pope has a Catholic baptism and is part of the Body of Christ?

No. All persons who are validly baptized are under the authority of the Pope.

There is only one valid baptism, and that is what makes a person a member of the body of Christ.