The infallable pope

[guanophore]

What does belonging to the Church and being baptized have to do with faith? Of course we are commanded to do it but it is no guarantee of salvation. Many baptized Catholics reject Jesus and become atheists.

Ok, I see what you are saying. First off, I would say that cradle Catholics, those who are brought to the Church for baptism are so because their parents care for their eternal souls, and are willing to take the promises to bring them up in the faith. When we are baptized, we become members of the Church. It is then up to us whether or not we are going to continue in the faith.

I agree, many baptized catholics fall away, and have embraced heretical ideas or atheism, or just plain hedonism.

 

[ron77nyc]

If you do not feel Jesus started the Catholic church, after Scripture and Sacred Tradition tells us so, you are making a mockery of Christ and I will pray for you. You are what Christ would call a hypocrite.
What “other” churches in Rome are you talking about? How old are you?

I’m old enough to not let that guilt you are throwing out stick to me. I was very honest and put my cards on the table knowing there would be people like you who can’t take it. It wasn’t done to upset anyone but I was just being honest and now you are trying to make me feel as if I’ve committed some great sin. Accept the fact that not everyone believes what you believe. I think I’ve opened up enough on this forum.

 

[Peter_J]

** Do not paint me with the same brush as yourself. **

Speaking for myself, I would definitely not paint you and Ron with the same brush.

 

[Peter_J]

Are you saying Protestants also have the real presence?

I believe mercygate was speaking of our belief in the eucharist in principle – leaving aside the question of where, in 2008, it can be found.

P.S. “Closed communion” is by no means unique to Roman Catholics. Eastern Orthodox practice it too, as do many conservative Protestants.

 

[rinnie]

I think you should sit down and have an honest talk with Catholics. The only difference between myself and many Catholics is that I’m talking about it. If I put you under a microscope I think I would find a little heretic in you also.

See Ron here’s the thing, Im speaking for myself now. Im Roman Catholic if the Pope says its so, ITs SO, Im down with that. I believe that Jesus left the Roman Catholic Church to the Pope to run. Thats as plain as it is. Its really that simple to me. I know alot of people disagree with the Pope, personally i cant relate to that. Jesus left the Church to Peter via Pope, its case closed for me.

I understand others feel differently that okay too, FOR THEM, but not for me. It Roman Catholic, the sacraments, the Pope. Thats the way it is, will alway’s be for me.

Now for me to turn my back on the Church and say that the sacraments are not big deal is a real problem for me. Because what is a sacrament, It is AN OUTWARD SIGN INSTITUTED BY CHRIST TO GIVE GRACE. To not have them would be wrong.

I personally think that you need to give alot of thought to the Holy Eucharist. I believe that once you keep thinking about it, and praying on it, Your eyes will open, you will understand once and for all what the Protestant Religion is missing. And God Bless them all they are wonderful People but they dont have the Sacraments. We as Catholics are taught we must have them. You know better, thats why im having a harder time umderstanding how you can say the Eucharist is a symbol to others when its Christ in your eyes. Jesus gave us the Apostles Ron, you know that, he gave them the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Power to turn bread and wine into the Living Christ. He never said go to any church and you can pretend.

No one has the authority to change the Bread and Wine without the Power of The Holy Spirit (Holy Orders).

Now you either believe in it Ron or you don’t. But really all in all thats the real difference between the Faiths. The most important thing anyway in my eyes. Please think about what you are missing and giving up. You can receive Christ, but I don’t have the power to give you communion Ron, the same way you dont have the power to give it to me. WE NEED HOLY ORDERS. Just think about it.

 

[churchcamefirst]

I’m old enough to not let that guilt you are throwing out stick to me. I was very honest and put my cards on the table knowing there would be people like you who can’t take it. It wasn’t done to upset anyone but I was just being honest and now you are trying to make me feel as if I’ve committed some great sin. Accept the fact that not everyone believes what you believe. I think I’ve opened up enough on this forum.

Accepting what I believe which you don’t does not make you a Catholic. Honestly, the only guilt involved here is the one where you can’t decide to be in a Catholic or a Protestant church.
And yes, you are committing heresy by being a Catholic and attending Protestant churches. It is what it is ron77 even though you don’t like it.
And people like me can’t take it because I’ve never heard of a Catholic who has these views.

 

[elts1956]

The people you talk about and the people who are kind enough to provide answers on this forum are obviously serving and are truly defending the Church with pure motives. What I don’t like and don’t trust is the hierarchy of a church, government or big corporation that says: “Here you go. We have all the rules set up for you. You follow them to the best of your ability but please don’t be upset if we don’t.” We’re all seeing a lot of that today and I’m tired of it.

I know that of which you speak. It is so discouraging when you perceive that people who are in charge of a corporation, government, Nation do not seem to keep their word, or are twisting their promises to their own selfish advantage.

But let us speak of the difference of these organizations and the Roman Catholic Church. None of the above have “core” dogmatic beliefs or teachings such as the Church has. Those doctrines and dogmas are what we must have faith in, not necessarily all of the men who promote them ,as humans are fallible and can make mistakes. They can give personal opinions which may be wrong, they may speak contrary to what is taught as an infallible law of the Church. But these are individuals, not the Church itself and its teachings. Whatever is taught, we must go back to the dogmas and doctrines orignially taught by Christ, His disciples and their descendents to make sure what we believe is in accordance with Church rule. In the Church we can do this, because as its basis, the Church has the whole truth which has been taught from the time of Christ. Fortunately for us, there are vigilant theologians who study, question and have discourse on all of these teachings. You will not find such vigilance in a secular organization.

 

[elts1956]

The people you talk about and the people who are kind enough to provide answers on this forum are obviously serving and are truly defending the Church with pure motives. What I don’t like and don’t trust is the hierarchy of a church, government or big corporation that says: “Here you go. We have all the rules set up for you. You follow them to the best of your ability but please don’t be upset if we don’t.” We’re all seeing a lot of that today and I’m tired of it.

When you believe in the resurrection of Jesus it is by revelation from the Holy Spirit. At that moment the Godhead lives in you. So from then on Jesus is always in you. We receive Him by faith and He sticks closer than a brother. It is something that God Himself chose to do in us. On the other hand I know many Catholics who received baptism, communion and confirmation and yet don’t believe in the resurrection.
The Eucharist is a sacrament; an outward sign of an inner belief. It is a celebration of the life of Christ that is already in us. If I receive bread and wine in a Protestant Church Jesus is with me there also. I don’t have a problem with it. If someone thinks that’s not right I’m sure you will try give me a problem that I don’t have and don’t need. It’s been done before.

What about the doctrine of the real presence in the Eucharist? Some members of Protestant Churches do believe in the real presence, but unfortunately very few Protestant Miniisters, if any, have the power of changing the bread and wine into the real Body and Blood Of Christ. Therefore Christ would not be with you in the same way when receiving communion in a Protestant Church as when receiving in a Catholic Church.

 

[ron77nyc]

What about the doctrine of the real presence in the Eucharist? Some members of Protestant Churches do believe in the real presence, but unfortunately very few Protestant Miniisters, if any, have the power of changing the bread and wine into the real Body and Blood Of Christ. Therefore Christ would not be with you in the same way when receiving communion in a Protestant Church as when receiving in a Catholic Church.

When is Jesus ever not with you?

 

[mercygate]

Are you saying Protestants also have the real presence?

No. But some believe that they have; some Anglicans, for example believe that their Orders are valid and hold at theology of the Eucharist identical to Catholic teaching. Lutherans believe in the real presence but in a different way from us. Methodists also have a sense of the Christ’s presence in the Lord’s Supper but again, it is quite different from ours.

My point was addressed not only to the idea of the real presence but to the principle of non-contradiction: two things cannot both be true in the same way at the same time.

Moreover, you had seemed to suggest that if a minister believed Christ is present in the Sacrament that He was thereby present. We do not believe that the desire, or even the belief of the minister is the effective principle in confecting the Sacrament. The intent is part of the process but not the exclusive determiner.

 

[guanophore]

Accepting what I believe which you don’t does not make you a Catholic. Honestly, the only guilt involved here is the one where you can’t decide to be in a Catholic or a Protestant church.
And yes, you are committing heresy by being a Catholic and attending Protestant churches. It is what it is ron77 even though you don’t like it.
And people like me can’t take it because I’ve never heard of a Catholic who has these views.

I admire your passion about your faith, churchcamefirst, but you are in error with this accusation. It is not committing heresy for a Catholic to attend a Protestant Churches.

First of all, a heretic must hold the true faith, in order to depart from it. It is not clear that the person you are responding to here understands, believes, or accepts the faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ. If not, then such a person may be poorly catechized, but does not qualify for the term “heretic”.

 

[guanophore]

Yes.
When the Church united in Rome not all the churches joined. Do you think they will sit in the back in heaven?

This statement/quoestion is lost on me. I do not understand the premise “when the Church united in Rome”. I say this because the Church did not “unite in Rome”. The Church began in Jerusalem, and spread East to Antioch, where the followers of Jesus were first called Christians. Paul spent most of His life on missionary journeys in the East, and he and Peter did not come to Rome until the end of their ministries. At that time, the Church was already united around the known world. It was Catholic before they came to Rome. In the light of these facts, can you clarify your question?

When is Jesus ever not with you?

When we are living in sin. Sin separates us from God.

 

[churchcamefirst]

I admire your passion about your faith, churchcamefirst, but you are in error with this accusation. It is not committing heresy for a Catholic to attend a Protestant Churches.

First of all, a heretic must hold the true faith, in order to depart from it. It is not clear that the person you are responding to here understands, believes, or accepts the faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ. If not, then such a person may be poorly catechized, but does not qualify for the term “heretic”.

If you attend Protestant bible classes as a Catholic, you are in heresy. If you attend Protestant churches, you are in heresy as a Catholic. If you attend not knowing your Catholic faith, you are just plain foolish.

 

[mercygate]

When you believe in the resurrection of Jesus it is by revelation from the Holy Spirit. At that moment the Godhead lives in you.

The Godhead lives in you from the moment of your baptism. Appropriating that life is a lifelong journey and a day-by-day choice.

So from then on Jesus is always in you. We receive Him by faith and He sticks closer than a brother. It is something that God Himself chose to do in us. On the other hand I know many Catholics who received baptism, communion and confirmation and yet don’t believe in the resurrection.

The fact that you know Catholics who do not believe in the resurrection (I don’t) has nothing to do with the teaching of the Church or the action of the Holy Spirit.

The Eucharist is a sacrament; an outward sign of an inner belief.

They are not merely signs. Catholic and Orthodox teaching on the Sacraments is that Sacraments are EFFECTIVE:

1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are *efficacious *because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son’s Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power. 1128 This is the meaning of the Church’s affirmation49 that the sacraments act ex opere operato (literally: “by the very fact of the action’s being performed”), i.e., by virtue of the saving work of Christ, accomplished once for all. It follows that "the sacrament is not wrought by the righteousness of either the celebrant or the recipient, but by the power of God."50 From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them.

It is a celebration of the life of Christ that is already in us.

Not in Catholic teaching; for us the Eucharist is a participation in Christ’s death and Resurrection.

If I receive bread and wine in a Protestant Church Jesus is with me there also.

Aside from the detail that you are enacting a contradiction, Christ may be present in Protestant celebrations of the Lord’s Supper but not by any means in the way He is present in the Sacraments of the Apostolic Churches.

I don’t have a problem with it. If someone thinks that’s not right I’m sure you will try give me a problem that I don’t have and don’t need. It’s been done before.

I certainly hope you do not consider my posts as ‘giving you a problem.’ You might enjoy a quiet and meditative read through the *Catechism of the Catholic Church. *Get the green version and read it straight through (or you might want to begin with part 4 and then go through 1, 2, and 3. You seem to have received painfully defective catechesis. You are not alone.

 

[ron77nyc]

This statement/quoestion is lost on me. I do not understand the premise “when the Church united in Rome”. I say this because the Church did not “unite in Rome”. The Church began in Jerusalem, and spread East to Antioch, where the followers of Jesus were first called Christians. Paul spent most of His life on missionary journeys in the East, and he and Peter did not come to Rome until the end of their ministries. At that time, the Church was already united around the known world. It was Catholic before they came to Rome. In the light of these facts, can you clarify your question?

When we are living in sin. Sin separates us from God.

Eastern Rite Churches, Eastern Christian churches consisting of five rites derived from ancient traditions of Christian churches in the East; they are now in communion with the Western church under the papacy. Distinct from both the Orthodox churches and the so-called Independent churches of the East, neither of which recognize papal primacy, the Eastern Rite churches are also sometimes known as Eastern Catholic, or Uniate, churches. Today more than 10 million Eastern Catholics are in the various rites.

The five rites are the Byzantine, Alexandrian, Antiochene, Chaldean, and Armenian. Within these rites are further subdivisions according to national or ethnic origins. The largest single group of Eastern Catholics is the Ukrainian church (Byzantine rite); it has about 7 million members, with approximately 70 percent in Ukraine. In the United States there are about 250,000 Ukrainian Catholics.

 

[mercygate]

Eastern Rite Churches, Eastern Christian churches consisting of five rites derived from ancient traditions of Christian churches in the East; they are now in communion with the Western church under the papacy. Distinct from both the Orthodox churches and the so-called Independent churches of the East, neither of which recognize papal primacy, the Eastern Rite churches are also sometimes known as Eastern Catholic, or Uniate, churches. Today more than 10 million Eastern Catholics are in the various rites.

The five rites are the Byzantine, Alexandrian, Antiochene, Chaldean, and Armenian. Within these rites are further subdivisions according to national or ethnic origins. The largest single group of Eastern Catholics is the Ukrainian church (Byzantine rite); it has about 7 million members, with approximately 70 percent in Ukraine. In the United States there are about 250,000 Ukrainian Catholics.

I’m not quite sure where you’re going with this post but of the Churches you mention that are not in Union with Rome, NONE accepts your view of the Eucharist.

 

[ron77nyc]

I’m not quite sure where you’re going with this post but of the Churches you mention that are not in Union with Rome, NONE accepts your view of the Eucharist.

This is where I’m going. I do believe that Jesus started the Catholic Church. I replied yes to that yesterday. The churches that didn’t join Rome were still Christians. My brother-in-law and his family are members of the Armenian Church. He and my sister were married in the Catholic Church. If you are not under the authority of the Pope you are still under the authority of Jesus.

 

[mercygate]

This is where I’m going. I do believe that Jesus started the Catholic Church. I replied yes to that yesterday. The churches that didn’t join Rome were still Christians. My brother-in-law and his family are members of the Armenian Church. He and my sister were married in the Catholic Church. If you are not under the authority of the Pope you are still under the authority of Jesus.

You have to qualify that. The Armenian Church may still be monophysites (this is not my area of expertise), which is a problem, but assuming that they are not, they have valid Orders and confect valid Sacraments. They do not believe that you become a Christian or are “saved” when you accept Jesus into your heart. They do not believe that Jesus is present in the Eucharist in the Methodist Church in the same authentic way that He is in the Eucharist of the Churches that have Apostolic Succession. There is a chasm of belief that separates the Orthodox-Catholic Churches from the stepdaughters of the Reformation.

 

[guanophore]

This is where I’m going. I do believe that Jesus started the Catholic Church. I replied yes to that yesterday. The churches that didn’t join Rome were still Christians. My brother-in-law and his family are members of the Armenian Church. He and my sister were married in the Catholic Church. If you are not under the authority of the Pope you are still under the authority of Jesus.

I think you have your history a bit skewed. There WERE no other “churches” when the Catholic Church was built in Rome. There were also no Christians that were not Catholic.

Every Christian is under the authority of the Pope.

The Pope is under the authority of Jesus.

 

[rinnie]

This is where I’m going. I do believe that Jesus started the Catholic Church. I replied yes to that yesterday. The churches that didn’t join Rome were still Christians. My brother-in-law and his family are members of the Armenian Church. He and my sister were married in the Catholic Church. If you are not under the authority of the Pope you are still under the authority of Jesus.

Ron as long as the Catholic Church has the 7 sacraments I believe the Church is fine. Thats what I was told. I myself believe that the Pope does has the authority that is why I follow the Roman Catholic CHurch, but the way I understand as long as the Church is Catholic and has the 7 sacraments then its all a part of the same Church.