The Invention of Catholicism?

[promethius]

It is not mentioned in Acts that the apostles celebrated mass in the sense of consecrating the host to create a Real Presence.

Well, I think there’s a reason that protestants have gone with the historically and scriptural untenable position of sola scriptura. That is because it provides a wonderful excuse to ignore legitimate FACT about what occurred, be that in the form of inscriptions in ancient roman catechombs, writings of the early church fathers, paintings and art forms from as early as 75 AD portraying the mass, and also historical accounts by roman scholars.

Historical documentation shows that one of the major concerns of pagan roman authorities was rumors of cannibalism taking part at Christian worship. This can ONLY be the case if a eucharistic celebration was already in place AND if Real Presence was the accepted standard projected by those worship events. In 155 AD, a samarian convert named Justin wrote in a letter to the emperor (i’ll make notes in this color):

Justin:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place. The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.** [readings of the liturgy of the word, still in mass today]** When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to immitate these beautiful things. [the homily. Still in practice today] Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves… and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation. [known as prayers of the faithful, still in practice today] When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss. [the sign of peace. Still in practice today] Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the bretheren. He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks [in greek: eucharistian] that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.** [consecration as part of the liturgy of the Eucharist, still in practice today]** When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying “Amen.” [known as the “great amen”, still in practice today] When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine, and water and take them to those who are absent. [distribution of the Eucharist, important enough that it is taken to those who could not be present. Still in practice today]

and so if we refuse the unscholarly and unbiblical practice of rejecting truth in favor of a made up dogma of “sola scriptura” and if we actually look into the historical documentation, we can clearly see that the structure of the mass is the same exact organization today as it was in 155 AD.

Further, we can surmise that the original post is incredibly flawed in it’s statement that these practices didn’t originate until after 200 AD, since we clearly have proof from roman historians that the mass organization was an established practice as early as 155 AD and likely earlier (other accounts exist, but Justin gives an incredibly detailed and perceptive one).

 

[elvisman]

Oh, no!! I am growing in my faith(thank you God for grace and the discernment of the Holy Spirit), without being a catholic! I’m still trying to find scripture, where Jesus calls it the catholic church I mean I know that the word catholic means universal, or general!

It means God’s UNIVERSAL Church.
If you don’t believe in certain aspects of the Church and instead, make up your own beliefs apart from that church - you don’t belong to His Church.

That is a tragedy because Jesus identifies himself with this Church in Acts 9:4-5:

**He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” **
He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Notice, Jesus doesn’t say, "Why are you persecuting my Church?"
He says, "ME", because Jesus cannot be separated from his Church.

---

Let me ask you:
How do you know if your interpretation of Scripture is right?

 

[jlhargus]

The fact that Protestants and Catholics disagree on theology doesn’t seem to me to be a Tower of Babel leading to the destruction of mankind. Theological disagreement is not a “house divided against itself.” In fact, if you really want to weaken any institution, just make it impossible to disagree. Then evreryone will be focused not on what is true but on what others believe to be true. That’s how stock bubbles are created. And we all know how that ends.

JL: The point was sola scriptura is the Tower of Babel that has and still is scattering Protestantism into thousands of denominations and so called non-denominations. It is a never ending division, all it takes is some charismatic person interpreting a scripture differently and splitting a group. It never brings together.

Also I do not hold theological disagreement is a house divided. In fact it can bring about a better understanding and unity. The Church is the one to settle the matter, when it gets out of hand, just as was done in Acts15 the first council of the Church. Sola scriptura can only bring about a split. I am not aware of a case were sola scriptura UNITED any two groups are you.

Not to offend you, but In my view, you seem to be more interested in developing your double talk abilities. You seem never to directly answer, but go off into a philosophical dream land.

 

[CoachSTL]

Sorry to burst your bubble, coachstl, but if I haven’t embraced the catholic church after 42 years in Christ, I’m not about to start! Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough, when comparing being nondenominational, with being politically independent! You see, some people, whether Democrat or Republican will vote the entire ticket, even if they don’t know or agree with all the candidates ! After growing up in a Baptist church, and finding too many things that I was not comfortable with(not being able to raise my hands during worship,etc), I began attending a nondenominational church; where I have experienced such growth and freedom! And contrary to what you may believe, I do seek after God’s heart!

1bleever,

I do not know what you are referring to about what I have said. Can you elaborate?

 

[jmcrae]

Oh, no!! I am growing in my faith(thank you God for grace and the discernment of the Holy Spirit), without being a catholic! I’m still trying to find scripture, where Jesus calls it the catholic church I mean I know that the word catholic means universal, or general!

Matthew 28:16-20. Go out into all the world (katholikos) baptizing them, and teaching them everything that I have made known to you.

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, ron77nyc, that story BOUT THE RABBIS AND THEIR S ONS, MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE AT ALL! IS IT A catholic JOKE OR SOMETHING

 

[1beleevr]

To the mangydog: Blah, blah, blah…Yada, yada, yada…for many of us(whatever label comes to mind, heathen, pagan, Protestant) the jury is still out on whether the catholic church is the church that Jesus began! Those of us who can read, and understand, may very well believe that Matthew 16:18 could be interpreted as Jesus, calling Himself the “Rock”! I mean He is referred to as the “Rock” on many occasions. And I don’t think there is any disagreement about Peter being appointed as the first leader! But the popes being part of the Apostolic succession ? I mean, when Jesus told the Jewish high coincil, that He would rebuild the temple in three days, they thought He was talking about a physical building! So, for the time being, no we do not 1)accept the pope as our spiritual leader, and 2)agree that the catholic church is the one started by Christ!

 

[jake23]

Oh, no!! I am growing in my faith(thank you God for grace and the discernment of the Holy Spirit), without being a catholic! I’m still trying to find scripture, where Jesus calls it the catholic church I mean I know that the word catholic means universal, or general!

You do not hear in the bible “the catholic church” because there was no other church! So it was simply called the church! Historians who are not biased either way will agree that the catholic church was simply the first church weither you like it or not and the catholic church wrote the bible, again even Luther said that himslef! You dont want to be a catholic fine, but if you want to know the real meanings of the scripture and grow to your fullest spiritually then you will practice the catholic faith. I can see that you are getting upset through your responses which is letting me know that I have hit a cord in your heart that you wish not listin to for whatever reason. Do not be afraid to walk away from the lies that where instilled through your life! Do not be afraid to take on the journey of truth and reason! Do not be afraid to embrace Christ church, us catholics are waiting! God Bless you son!

 

[1beleevr]

jake23: Sadly, you have not touched anything in my heart, I believe the inverse may be true of you! After years of discussion with friends who sre either, what do you call them"cradle catholics"(how sweet, and cute, too), or converts, I have noticed that when there is a discussion about anything to do with the Bible, Jesus, the pope,etc., they get extremely irate(including a barrage of F-bombs) when I don’t agree with them(my prerogative?) And, as for the lies in my life, these were all told by Satan, either directly to me, or through others, Don’t feel sorry for me, though; I love people of all races, creeds, religious persuasion, etc.Remember, Jesus said that the second greatest comandment is ,"love thy neighbor as thyself!!! If I don’t ever have the pleasure of meeting you in this world, I’m SURE I’ll see you in Heaven:thumbsup:

 

[elvisman]

jake23: Sadly, you have not touched anything in my heart, I believe the inverse may be true of you! After years of discussion with friends who sre either, what do you call them"cradle catholics"(how sweet, and cute, too), or converts, I have noticed that when there is a discussion about anything to do with the Bible, Jesus, the pope,etc., they get extremely irate(including a barrage of F-bombs) when I don’t agree with them(my prerogative?) And, as for the lies in my life, these were all told by Satan, either directly to me, or through others, Don’t feel sorry for me, though; I love people of all races, creeds, religious persuasion, etc.Remember, Jesus said that the second greatest comandment is ,"love thy neighbor as thyself!!! If I don’t ever have the pleasure of meeting you in this world, I’m SURE I’ll see you in Heaven:thumbsup:

I didn’t see any acrimony, anger or f-bombs in Jake23’s post.
I do, however see you dodging a lot of points that are being made, though.

I also see you haven’t addressed the the points I made to you in my post (#679). I also see that you haven’t answered the question I asked you.

 

[ron77nyc]

Hey, ron77nyc, that story BOUT THE RABBIS AND THEIR S ONS, MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE AT ALL! IS IT A catholic JOKE OR SOMETHING

No…It’s just a joke. God also had a Jewish son who became a Christian.

 

[cazayoux]

Those of us who can read, and understand, may very well believe that Matthew 16:18 could be interpreted as Jesus, calling Himself the “Rock”!

That’s a new-fangled idea.
Every time God changes someone’s name, it comes with a change in status.
Abram → Abraham
Jacob → Israel
and others
I need you to help me understand why Jesus changed Simon’s name to Cephas (ROCK).

I mean He is referred to as the “Rock” on many occasions.

Catholics do not argue this at all.
We do see Jesus giving power and authority to the apostles.
He did the same when he made Peter the visible shepherd on earth of His church (“Feed my sheep”).

And I don’t think there is any disagreement about Peter being appointed as the first leader!

If Jesus wanted a shepherd for His people on earth, why would he only want one for Peter’s lifetime. The church lasts much longer than one man’s lifespan.

But the popes being part of the Apostolic succession?

Why the confusion? We see in Acts 1, Judas being replaced. Judas was gone but his office remained. KJV called this office a ‘bishopric’.
Peter held an office. The office remains.

So, for the time being, no we do not 1)accept the pope as our spiritual leader, and 2)agree that the catholic church is the one started by Christ!

The church that Jesus set up is called the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).
Since this church has the truth and had the responsibility of settling disputes (Matt 18:17), it had to be a visible church that we could go to.

So help me to know where the church was after the apostles died.
Where was the church in the 2nd century?
Where was the church in the 3rd century?
Where was the church in the 4th century? ← Trinity and canon defined
Where was the church in the 5th century?
Where was the church in the 6th century?
Where was the church in the 7th century?
Where was the church in the 8th century?
Where was the church in the 9th century?
Where was the church in the 10th century?
Where was the church in the 11th century?
Where was the church in the 12th century?
Where was the church in the 13th century?
Where was the church in the 14th century?
Where was the church in the 15th century?
Where was the church in the 16th century? ← Luther
Where was the church in the 17th century?
Where was the church in the 18th century?
Where was the church in the 19th century?
Where was the church in the 20th century? ← non-denominationalism
Where is the church in the 21st century?

In the lineage, it’s a fairly new idea to deny the apostolic succession of the pope.

With humility I say this. It seems you have a very close relationship with Jesus and read the Word of God regularly. AMEN !!! Catholics do and have the same. Your prejudice may unwittingly be bad information and direction you’ve received from others. If you are honest in your search for truth - and to seek truth IS to seek Jesus (John 14:6) - then at the very least give us a fair chance to explain what we believe and why. Even if you decide afterward to disagree, you’ll have at least learned what we actually believe and teach, rather than holding on to misconceptions of what we believe and teach. You may actually be surprised how biblical we Catholics are.

Cheers my friend.

michel

 

[ron77nyc]

WRONG.
"All" who believe in the resurrection are not Catholic. They may be Christian - but they have chosen to be separated from that Church.

Churches with apostolic succession are Catholic but not Roman Catholic.
the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Assyrian Church of the East,the Old Catholic churches and the churches of the Anglican Communion.[4] The claim of continuity may be based on Apostolic Succession,

1. The Apostolic Succession of Saint Matthew’s Churches is traced through the following branches of the church:
   o Anglican
   o Metropolitan-Archbishops of Albania
   o Armenian Catholicate-Patrichate of Cilicia-Catholic Uniate
   o Patriarchate of Moscow, Greek Melkite
   o Patriarchate of Antioch-Melkite Uniate
   o Catholic/Patriarchate of Assyria (The East)
   o Chaldean Patriarchate of Babylon of Baghdad-Chaldean Uniate
   o Syrian “Jacobite” Patriarchate of Antioch
   o Order for Corporate Reunion
   o Antioch Orthodox Succession
   o Roman Petrine Succession-the Roman Catholic Church of Brazil
   o Holy Russian Orthodox Synod
   o Roman Petrine Succession-Utrecht Old Catholic Church
   o Ultrajectine
   o Old Roman Catholic

The Catholic Church is the one Church established by Jesus our Lord. Any other believers in the resurrection are not part of the Catholic Church - otherwise they would believe as the Catholic Church universally.

What??
To which "early" Catholics are you referring?

The Church in Jerusalem.

What is "Roman" law?

The Vatican imposes Roman Law and Roman Tradition which were not part of the Early Church on all Roman Catholics; at the same time the Vatican enjoys diplomatic immunity as a gift from Mussolini.

Here is the definition of Canon Law:
newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm
Canon law is the body of laws and regulations made by or adopted by ecclesiastical authority, for the government of the Christian organization and its members. The word adopted is here used to point out the fact that there are certain elements in canon law borrowed by the Church from civil law or from the writings of private individuals, who as such had no authority in ecclesiastical society.

 

[1beleevr]

Easy, elvisman; I was getting back to you, it’s just that I’ve been in another forum for awhile and had some other business! I believe that when Jesus told us in John 14:16-17,26, John 15:26, and John 16:7, that we would receive an Advocate, I believe that it was also for us to be granted the gift of discernment! And as for acrimony, anger,etc, it is not allowed on this website, right! You are actually one of my favorite guys to correspond with . I love your intensity, and it almost makes me want to be a catholic(not!) , so we could sit and talk ad nauseum about things! I am glad that my God gave me free will; and the privilege of knowing Him through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ!Wouldn’t it be boring, if we were all the same?

 

[Non_Serviam]

Matthew 28:16-20. Go out into all the world (katholikos) baptizing them, and teaching them everything that I have made known to you.

If this meant “Catholic” in the modern sense it would mean Jesus was sending the Apostles to baptize and teach Catholics.

While some Fundamentalists would enjoy such an interpretation, it is incorrect. The use of katholikos here is deliberate-Matthew is primarily written to a Jewish audience and the use of a word meaning “everywhere” or “universally” clearly shows that Jesus intended His message to go to all people-not just Jews.

The word is being used in its clear and plain meaning of “all” or “universal”, just like baptizein simply meant dipping, dunking or immersion before the church made a theological term out of it. Before the church started using it the most common usage of baptizein in literature was to refer to cloth being dipped into dye.

 

[jmcrae]

If this meant “Catholic” in the modern sense it would mean Jesus was sending the Apostles to baptize and teach Catholics.

While some Fundamentalists would enjoy such an interpretation, it is incorrect. The use of katholikos here is deliberate-Matthew is primarily written to a Jewish audience and the use of a word meaning “everywhere” or “universally” clearly shows that Jesus intended His message to go to all people-not just Jews.

Hence the name “Catholic Church.”

Baptists are in America, Lutherans are in Germany, and Orthodox are in Greece and Russia, but Catholics are all over the world - we are the “everywhere Church”.

 

[cazayoux]

The word is being used in its clear and plain meaning of “all” or “universal”

BINGO !!! … which is why my church is called the Catholic Church… it is the church being spoken of in that passage.

michel

 

[Non_Serviam]

Hence the name “Catholic Church.”

Baptists are in America, Lutherans are in Germany, and Orthodox are in Greece and Russia, but Catholics are all over the world - we are the “everywhere Church”.

Yes the Pope and Hank Snow-quite a pair.

 

[Non_Serviam]

BINGO !!! … which is why my church is called the Catholic Church… it is the church being spoken of in that passage.

michel

That would be great for you-except the word “church” isn’t in that passage-“disciples” is there, but not “church”. There were “disciples” before there was a “church” so one is not 100% equivalent to the other. Perhaps a bit more learning to do on the Scripture side and a little less bingo playing.

 

[cazayoux]

That would be great for you-except the word “church” isn’t in that passage-“disciples” is there, but not “church”. There were “disciples” before there was a “church” so one is not 100% equivalent to the other. Perhaps a bit more learning to do on the Scripture side and a little less bingo playing.

You missed my point.
Church is the noun, Catholic the adjective.
The scripture passage is giving the where, the scope of the command.

Matthew 28:16-20
Go out into all the world (katholikos) baptizing them, and teaching them everything that I have made known to you.

This is PRECISELY why we use the adjective, Catholic, for His Church.

And the church DID exist at pentecost. The apostles and disciples WERE the church.
This scripture IS the commissioning of the church that Jesus (in Matt 16) that He would found.

michel