The Invention of Catholicism?

[ron77nyc]

I am Catholic and can see that might seem offensive.
Maybe see it as, once we get to heaven, we will all be a part of the universal church that Jesus Christ started.
We just happen to have different ideas of what that is.

I really appreciate your non-combative attitude.

Catholicism is not rigid legalism. That is a prejudice view from the outside. For me, learning about my faith and LIVING my faith has been the most freeing Christ-centric thing I’ve ever experienced.

I’m not referring to the whole religion just individuals and one in particular on this forum. Every religion has them.

Fasting brings us closer to God. The rule, or actually, the practice has the intent of bringing the INDIVIDUAL to a closer relationship with Christ. The example for this is Christ himself that fasted in the desert.
Fasting brings to mind your physicality, with the intent of really focusing on that which is not your physicality, but your spirituality.

Peace!

michel

Fasting is a good spiritual practice and a discipline but they lose me with the mortal sin part of it. That’s control.

 

[elvisman]

Yo, elvisman: When I referenced the scriptures about the Advocate, I believe that Jesus meant that said Advocate( the Holy Spirit) would help us to know when scripture was true So He is the one who shows me the Truth! Separated, yes, from the catholic church , but not from God:thumbsup:

**You believe "that Jesus meant that said Advocate (the Holy Spirit) would help us to know when scripture was true". The Protestant down the street might disagree with you. **

That’s the whole point - what you believe may not be true but you have no way of knowing because you rejected His Church which is the "Pillar and foundation of truth". (1 Timothy 3:15)

 

[elvisman]

When non-Catholic missionsaries go into anti-Christian countries to preach the gospel and are persecuted do you think God says, “It’s OK with me. They are not part of my true church?”

God can work through any catalyst - it doesn’t matter who.
God worked through Pharoah to sturdy the faith of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt - and he was evil, pagan man.
God Wills that ALL belong to his Church.

 

[elvisman]

I’m becoming more convinced every time I read about the prejudice and intolerance of Catholics for non-Catholics and statements such as: “When we get to heaven we will all be Catholic” that my poor catechesis is not a bad thing.

This is an unfortunate, prideful statement.
You’re unwilling to learn more about your faith and at the same time willing to accept your poor catechesis.

You’re angry with me for pointing out the truths of the Catholic Church to you - and for pointing out your factually deficient accusations about her.
**You call this "prejudice and intolerance of Catholics". **
This is the kind statement that G.K. Chesterton was speaking of when he said:
"Tolerance is a virtue of a man without convictions."
Truth is truth - whether someone likes it or not.

God’s way is not rigid legalism

You’re absolutely right. God’s way is through his Church.

 

[CoachSTL]

Thank you, Coachstl.
The Eucharist to me is so central … to everything. I can get choked up just thinking about it. There’s nothing more humbling than receiving. "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.
A couple of advents ago, the first week of advent, I was sitting waiting for mass to start. I was thinking about Jesus in the manger and what the manger is. It’s the feeding trough for the cows. In french, the word to is ‘manger’ (say mon-zhay). It seems that there was a prefiguring of the Eucharistic celebration from the day Christ was born. He was placed in a feeding trough.
Maybe it’s not theology, just my disconnected ramblings, but I had such a sense of “Wow” thinking about it.

michel

Michel,

I know what you mean by the “wow” experience. I will never forget the day I realized that the Euharist was Jesus.

I was at Mass during my mid teens. I was struggling thinking about my many friend’s parents, friends of my parents, who were angry at the Catholic Church for a number of reasons. I needed peace of mind because I knew that they just were mad at life. I asked God to please show me the truth about His Church and them too. I watched the priest actions through the Eucharistc prayers and… BOOM !

I felt a sense of calm, peace and presence of Christ that I will never forget and remains with me to this day! I know it will never leave me either. It is too beautiful. I mean, how can it not be? It is Jesus!

I just want everyone to see and feel what I can see!

 

[cazayoux]

.but they lose me with the mortal sin part of it. That’s control.

So I don’t mis-characterize your thinking, please expound.
What control is there in the Catholic Church regarding mortal sin that you see?

I don’t know if you have an objection to the fact that we teach there is something we call ‘mortal’ sin … or … if this is leading to a discussion on confession to a priest … or … something else.

I’ll do my best, but really don’t want to go in the wrong direction by mistakenly focusing on something you weren’t alluding to.

michel

 

[ron77nyc]

**God can work through any **catalyst - it doesn’t matter who.
God worked through Pharoah to sturdy the faith of the Hebrew slaves in Egypt - and he was evil, pagan man.
God Wills that ALL belong to his Church.

Maybe you have noticed a pattern if you look into history. People rebel when leaders become oppressive and dishonest. William Wallace gave some good advice to Robert the Bruce in Braveheart. He said: “If you lead them to freedom they will follow.” The whole New Testament is about our freedom in Christ. Not freedom to sin but freedom to walk in the truth. We are to live according to the New Covenant not the New Old Covenant.

Matthew 11:28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew11.htm
In place of the yoke of the law, complicated by scribal interpretation, Jesus invites the burdened to take the yoke of obedience to his word, under which they will find rest

He does not free us from the burden of the Old Law to be burdened by a new set of laws. Catholicism outdid Judaism with complicated scribal interpretation. This is the “Invention of Catholicism.” So if you want everyone to join one church then start with the original gospel. Jesus didn’t say you must accept Me and Peter and all the traditions that were added on throughout the centuries. That is not the original gospel.

 

[ron77nyc]

So I don’t mis-characterize your thinking, please expound.
What control is there in the Catholic Church regarding mortal sin that you see?

I don’t know if you have an objection to the fact that we teach there is something we call ‘mortal’ sin … or … if this is leading to a discussion on confession to a priest … or … something else.

I’ll do my best, but really don’t want to go in the wrong direction by mistakenly focusing on something you weren’t alluding to.

michel

It seems like a contradiction. Fasting is a discipline but if you don’t do it you’ll be condemned to hell. What does that mean? You need some motivation so we’ll give it to you?

 

[CoachSTL]

Listen to your own words “justified by the gift of faith in my savior”, is that not a testimony of faith?

If than by faith, than you “are” justified, saved, set apart, while you work out all the kinks of the lust loving flesh.

You being a Catholic makes no difference to Jesus’ saving grace, he loves you just the same if you weren’t.

But since you are, be a good one.

Peace>>>AJ

look3467,

You are not understanding the meaning. Read James and try to listen to what he is saying. "We are are justified by works, and not by faith alone. Faith is the first thing Christ tells us we need. The works are not works of vain merit. The works are merited grace to us because of faith.

Jesus loves everyone, even atheists! But, just because Jesus loves everyone, does not mean they are justified and will make it into heaven. So, when you say, "being Catholic makes no difference to Jesus’ saving grace, He loves you just th same… You are correct. But, you are not explaining the reason why you are saying it. Noone is question Jesus’ ability to love everyone. It is a complex question that does not make sense.

With all due respect, I do not think you understand what Cathollic really means.

Prayerfully,

Coachstl

 

[jmcrae]

When non-Catholic missionsaries go into anti-Christian countries to preach the gospel and are persecuted do you think God says, “It’s OK with me. They are not part of my true church?”

What about Baha’is, Sikhs, and others who go into primitive places to spread their religions, and are killed for it? Does their martyrdom make their religion to be true, suddenly?

 

[elvisman]

Maybe you have noticed a pattern if you look into history. People rebel when leaders become oppressive and dishonest. William Wallace gave some good advice to Robert the Bruce in Braveheart. He said: “If you lead them to freedom they will follow.” The whole New Testament is about our freedom in Christ. Not freedom to sin but freedom to walk in the truth. We are to live according to the New Covenant not the New Old Covenant.

Matthew 11:28 Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew11.htm
In place of the yoke of the law, complicated by scribal interpretation, Jesus invites the burdened to take the yoke of obedience to his word, under which they will find rest

He does not free us from the burden of the Old Law to be burdened by a new set of laws. Catholicism outdid Judaism with complicated scribal interpretation. This is the “Invention of Catholicism.” So if you want everyone to join one church then start with the original gospel. Jesus didn’t say you must accept Me and Peter and all the traditions that were added on throughout the centuries. That is not the original gospel.

If you think that the Gospel is about “easy believeism” - you’ve got it wrong. It is all-encompassing and life-surrendering. It’s about taking up your cross daily and being crucified with Christ. It’s about dying to yourself. You may not be willing to do that yet.

I ask you again:
If you see the Catholic Church as a burden and you are so against her - why do you identify yourself as “Catholic”? If you’re against the Church - you’re against Jesus himself (Acts 9:4-5). These are Jesus’ words - not mine. Is this the “intolerance and prejudice” you spoke of? If it is - you really need to rethink your position.

In Luke 10:16, Jesus said:
The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects You rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me." You need to ask yourself if you agree with Jesus or not.
Because Jesus gave ALL authority to his Church (Matt. 1618, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:13-15) - whether you like ot or not.

 

[CoachSTL]

jake23: Sadly, you have not touched anything in my heart, I believe the inverse may be true of you! After years of discussion with friends who sre either, what do you call them"cradle catholics"(how sweet, and cute, too), or converts, I have noticed that when there is a discussion about anything to do with the Bible, Jesus, the pope,etc., they get extremely irate(including a barrage of F-bombs) when I don’t agree with them(my prerogative?) And, as for the lies in my life, these were all told by Satan, either directly to me, or through others, Don’t feel sorry for me, though; I love people of all races, creeds, religious persuasion, etc.Remember, Jesus said that the second greatest comandment is ,"love thy neighbor as thyself!!! If I don’t ever have the pleasure of meeting you in this world, I’m SURE I’ll see you in Heaven:thumbsup:

1beleevr,

Might I ask what your purpose is for being on this forum. Your spirit is only one of disgust and anger for the Catholic Church and does not appear healthy.

I will leave you with this suggestion for contemplative thought about your statement of your assured destination into heaven. Read the whole chapter 7 of Mathew. Here are some highlighted verses.

Mt 7:21- 23:
21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Prayerfully,

Coachstl

 

[ron77nyc]

If you think that the Gospel is about "easy believeism" - you’ve got it wrong. It is all-encompassing and life-surrendering. It’s about taking up your cross daily and being crucified with Christ. It’s about dying to yourself. You may not be willing to do that yet.

Why do you assume I’m not doing that?

I ask you again:
If you see the Catholic Church as a burden and you are so against her - why do you identify yourself as “Catholic”? If you’re against the Church - you’re against Jesus himself (Acts 9:4-5). These are Jesus’ words - not mine. Is this the “intolerance and prejudice” you spoke of? If it is - you really need to rethink your position.

I’m not against the Church but I am against the false teachings of the Church and when I see the Church not following the teachings that were established by the apostles it makes me question and doubt and not fully trust. As far as identifying myself as a Catholic do you think it is possible to be unbaptized and unconfirmed? If I knowingly leave Catholicism then according to Church law I will be eternally punished. Are you suggesting that I do that?

In Luke 10:16, Jesus said:
The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects You rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me." You need to ask yourself if you agree with Jesus or not.
Because Jesus gave ALL authority to his Church (Matt. 1618, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:13-15) - whether you like ot or not.

That authority has been abused so many times that I wonder about the accuracy of that interpretation of scripture.

 

[ron77nyc]

What about Baha’is, Sikhs, and others who go into primitive places to spread their religions, and are killed for it? Does their martyrdom make their religion to be true, suddenly?

According to Catholic thought authenticity is based on longevity therefore the gates of hell will not prevail against anything that is not of God.

 

[jmcrae]

According to Catholic thought authenticity is based on longevity therefore the gates of hell will prevail against anything that is not of God.

No, it is not based on “longevity.” The Catholic Church was just as true when it was one minute old as it is now.

The test is not “how old is it” in terms of older being better, but rather, “when did it start and who founded it?” It started in 33 AD, and it was founded by Jesus Christ. Those are the criteria that make it authentic. Age, in and of itself, is not relevant, other than that it is the only organization on earth that is the right age to have been started in 33 AD by Jesus Christ.

Anything not started in 33 AD by Jesus Christ is not the authentic Church - even if it is older. (Such as Buddhism or Hinduism.)

 

[jmcrae]

It seems like a contradiction. Fasting is a discipline but if you don’t do it you’ll be condemned to hell. What does that mean? You need some motivation so we’ll give it to you?

Christ commands us to fast. We are required to fast. (Matthew 6:17)

The disciplines of the Church tell us when to fast. (Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, and for one hour before receiving Holy Communion.) Of course, we are certainly permitted to exceed the Church’s minimums. The Church does not legalistally restrict us to only these times, for fasting.

 

[ron77nyc]

No, it is not based on “longevity.” The Catholic Church was just as true when it was one minute old as it is now.

The test is not “how old is it” in terms of older being better, but rather, “when did it start and who founded it?” It started in 33 AD, and it was founded by Jesus Christ. Those are the criteria that make it authentic. Age, in and of itself, is not relevant, other than that it is the only organization on earth that is the right age to have been started in 33 AD by Jesus Christ.

Anything not started in 33 AD by Jesus Christ is not the authentic Church - even if it is older. (Such as Buddhism or Hinduism.)

What about Judaism? Hebrews 11 is all about the salvation of those who existed before the Church. What about Jews for Jesus who do not belong to Catholicism? They are part of His body which is the Church.

 

[jmcrae]

What about Judaism? Hebrews 11 is all about the salvation of those who existed before the Church. What about Jews for Jesus who do not belong to Catholicism? They are part of His body which is the Church.

Yes, in a certain sense they are, and I suppose in that sense, one could say that the Catholic Church began with Adam and Eve. But the visible Church on earth under the New Covenant began with Jesus and the Apostles.

I’m just going out on a limb here, but I don’t think Jews consider themselves Catholic, but yes, they are certainly joined to the Catholic Church in an important way.

 

[elvisman]

Why do you assume I’m not doing that?

Because you seem to ne resistant to the Church’s teachings on the matter.
"By their fruits you shall know them" (Matthew 7:16).

I’m not against the Church but I am against the false teachings of the Church and when I see the Church not following the teachings that were established by the apostles it makes me question and doubt and not fully trust. As far as identifying myself as a Catholic do you think it is possible to be unbaptized and unconfirmed? If I knowingly leave Catholicism then according to Church law I will be eternally punished. Are you suggesting that I do that?.

**I’m not suggesting you do anything. I’m asking why you would identify yourself as Catholic when you are obviously disgusted with the Church and her teachings. **
Again, I refer to Matthew 7:16 (above).

Which false teachings are you referring to?

That authority has been abused so many times that I wonder about the accuracy of that interpretation of scripture.

Then, please tell me - how do you interprest those scripture passages?

 

[ron77nyc]

Christ commands us to fast. We are required to fast. (Matthew 6:17)

The disciplines of the Church tell us when to fast. (Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, and for one hour before receiving Holy Communion.) Of course, we are certainly permitted to exceed the Church’s minimums. The Church does not legalistally restrict us to only these times, for fasting.

Why the death penalty for not complying?