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Lilyofthevalley
Guest
Fitz, thank-you. I remember an Iranian man who worked for a neighbor of mine during the Iran hostage crisis. He was a nice man.
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Cairisti
Guest
Those who deny what happened are totaly ignorant. Yes, a visit to Dauchu or any of those camps should show a chilling vision of what mankind can do to another. I have seen the tattoo of the number on a patient. Seeing that tattoo, you can not deny what happened. (And this was a woman in her 60’s, so when I saw it in 1989, she was just a child/teen when she was in the camps. ) I hope and pray no one will ever forget.
Lisa, special hugs to your uncle and his family.
Lisa, special hugs to your uncle and his family.
S
Scullinius
Guest
So he was in the US Army? Did any US Army units actually cross the border into Poland? The US Army and the Red Army met at various points in Germany, and some US units did cross the border into Czechoslovakia, but – Poland, which had already been “liberated” (or not) by the Soviets?
Scullinius
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Fitz
Guest
OK, I don’t doubt that it is good, but I do doubt that it is brief. It covers 2000 years!
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gilliam
Guest
Brief is relative… it will take you less than 2,000 days to read it
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Shoshana
Guest
Code:
These were my conclusions after belonging to a couple of Jewish web sites.
More time is needed to think about it…
Blessings,
Shoshana
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Ghosty
Guest
Shoshana: Always take the opportunity to educate yourself. I would also say, however, that simply disagreeing with Israel and Zionism does not make you a bad person, nor does it make you anti-Semitic out of hand. Carefully examine your reasons for opposing Israel, if indeed you do, but don’t think that you automatically run the risk of being anti-Semitic if you stand against Zionism. Many faithful, orthodox Jews oppose Zionism and Israel, even if they are in the minority. It’s an issue that’s worthy of very in-depth and careful evaluation, and while those Orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism are indeed a tiny minority, there is nothing that indicates that their views are wrong or heretical, just not popular. You’ll see in threads where SSV and I talk that we have the utmost respect for eachother even when we disagree. This is an issue that intelligent people can disagree on without the stamp of God coming down obviously on one side or the other.
That being said, be VERY careful of anti-Semitism hiding within anti-Zionist writings. It is an insidious thing that creeps up often (though it’s not as pervasive as detractors seem to think). Always be aware of the agenda of the people writing their pieces.
That being said, be VERY careful of anti-Semitism hiding within anti-Zionist writings. It is an insidious thing that creeps up often (though it’s not as pervasive as detractors seem to think). Always be aware of the agenda of the people writing their pieces.
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gilliam
Guest
They do because of religous reasons. They feel that the Jewish state cannot be restored without the Missiah. And you are not correct that there are many, there are very, very few who think that.
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Matt25
Guest
The Holocaust, or Shoah, most certainly occurred and was a horrible, horrible crime.
The Palestinians of 2005 were not responsible for the Holocaust in 1940’s Europe.
To support the right of Palestinians to live in peace within secure, internationally recognised boundaries is not anti-semitic.
Not all Jews are Zionist. Not all Zionists are Jewish.
God loves Jews, Christians and Muslims. The Holy Catholic Church too respects the other Abrahamic traditions as our sisters and brothers in Monotheism.
The Palestinians of 2005 were not responsible for the Holocaust in 1940’s Europe.
To support the right of Palestinians to live in peace within secure, internationally recognised boundaries is not anti-semitic.
Not all Jews are Zionist. Not all Zionists are Jewish.
God loves Jews, Christians and Muslims. The Holy Catholic Church too respects the other Abrahamic traditions as our sisters and brothers in Monotheism.
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gilliam
Guest
Great, I am for this. As long as the solution is not to push Israel into the sea. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. The Fatah Constitution that is adopted as the unofficial constitution of the Palestinian Authority also calls for the destruction of the Jewish State in most of its clauses.
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Fitz
Guest
LOL. Good answer. Gilliam I love to read, but your line just struck me as funny when I read it.Brief is relative… it will take you less than 2,000 days to read it
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Matt25
Guest
It is untrue to say that the Fatah Constitution calls for the destruction of the Jewish State in most of its clauses. The document in any case was drawn up circa 1964 and addressess a whole different situation to the one in which we now are. It is worth noting the secular character of Fatah though.
What is your evidence for saying that the FC is the unofficial constitution of the PA?
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Ghosty
Guest
Funny, I believe I said they were a minority. Perhaps you need to recognize the way in which I used “many”, and that it had nothing to do with percentage. There are tens of thousands of Orthodox Jews who oppose Israel on religious grounds, and there are hundreds of thousands of Jews in general who oppose Israel on various levels. That is “many” no matter how you slice it, even if it is a small minority. I certainly wouldn’t call thousands upon thousands “very few”, though you could definately say “relatively few”.
Let’s put it this way: The percentage of Jews who oppose Israel FAR outstrips the percentage of Jews as a population of humanity. So is it also fair to say that very, very few Jews support Israel?
Incidently, I also oppose the State of Israel on religious grounds, though I recognize it as a reality that can not and should not simply be removed. I believe it is a historical blasphemy that God will have to contend with. Otherwise I simply oppose the Occupation and the placement of settlements on social and political grounds, and feel that Israel is a false security blanket for the survival of Jews; it’s very secularizing and promotes attitudes and values that are generally not conduscive to Torah observant life. Of course I feel that way about any modern state, and I feel that such states have the same effect on Catholic Faith (observe Europe). True faithful devotion and the running of a modern nation-state do not coincide, and one will generally destroy the other. The difference is that, as a Catholic, I can thankfully withdraw into my loyalty to the Church, the only true “state” worth supporting during these Messianic times.
S
Shoshana
Guest
Code:
Blessings,
Shoshana
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Ghosty
Guest
Shoshana: Depends on what you mean by “off-the-wall”. They certainly place you in the minority, but that doesn’t make the views “wrong”, just unpopular. It’s a valid, if unusual, stance and interpretation.
Now simply opposing Israel is actually not off-the-wall at all, and actually seems to be the majority viewpoint, but keep in mind that many of the people who oppose Israel do have some lingering anti-Semitism if not outright hostility to Jews in general. It takes a very fine-toothed comb to sift through the information. Of course the same is true of pro-Zionist information, as much of it is based on false accounts and faulty studies, such as the “land without a people” myth. It’s a very tangled web to sort out.
One possible group to contact or research is “Not In My Name”, at www.nimn.org. They are a group that apparently takes a broader stance against Israeli policies than merely religious objections, and they focus on Jewish opposition to Israel on a number of issues and to varying degrees. You’re more likely to get a full picture of Jewish opposition to Israel from them then you are from groups like Neturei Karta.
Now simply opposing Israel is actually not off-the-wall at all, and actually seems to be the majority viewpoint, but keep in mind that many of the people who oppose Israel do have some lingering anti-Semitism if not outright hostility to Jews in general. It takes a very fine-toothed comb to sift through the information. Of course the same is true of pro-Zionist information, as much of it is based on false accounts and faulty studies, such as the “land without a people” myth. It’s a very tangled web to sort out.
One possible group to contact or research is “Not In My Name”, at www.nimn.org. They are a group that apparently takes a broader stance against Israeli policies than merely religious objections, and they focus on Jewish opposition to Israel on a number of issues and to varying degrees. You’re more likely to get a full picture of Jewish opposition to Israel from them then you are from groups like Neturei Karta.
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