The issue of gay intolerance

[zachforn]

T

The CLAIM is made that gays are an involuntary “minority group” like black people or jews or the disabled, and that not supporting their lifestyle is discrimination. the “Discriminators” can then be made subject to legal and other penalties.

However this is completely unproven. In fact there is no reason not to believe the biblical teaching that homosexuality, like promiscuity, a liking for other sexual habits, or even a liking for chocolate, is a VOLUNTARILY CHOSEN BEHAVIOUR OR PREFERENCE. As such, others are not placed under any obligation to be forced into accepting, approving and validating that behaviour preference - as the homosexual lobby demands.

God makes homosexual people, even the Vatican has stated that.

Persona Humana (1976), VIII, para. 2:

“A distinction is drawn, and it seems with some reason, between homosexuals whose tendency comes from a false education, from a lack of normal sexual development, from habit, from bad example, or from other similar causes, and is transitory or at least not incurable; and homosexuals who are definitively such because of some kind of innate instinct or a pathological constitution judged to be incurable.”

 

[CWBetts]

God makes homosexual people, even the Vatican has stated that.

Persona Humana (1976), VIII, para. 2:

“A distinction is drawn, and it seems with some reason, between homosexuals whose tendency comes from a false education, from a lack of normal sexual development, from habit, from bad example, or from other similar causes, and is transitory or at least not incurable; and homosexuals who are definitively such because of some kind of innate instinct or a pathological constitution judged to be incurable.”

A genetic predisposition does not remove culpability for sinful behavior. If someone is genetically predisposed to pedophilia be excused? Of course not. We never have the liscense to do what is right in our own eyes. Everyne has sins they struggle with. Be it drunkeness, temper, lust, pride, or whatever. The point is through the power of the Holy Spirit, we must strive to rise above our “pet sins”

 

[zachforn]

As far as my sins, I know that I am a sinful creature, and I am constantly trying to live up to the standard of holiness, and always fall short, to my shame…We must strive to live holy lives, and not force acceptance of that behavior which is evil.

My question to you is do you think the government should take away YOUR rights, or not give them to you in the first place because you make sinful choices?

Imagine if you went to vote and the poll worker informed you that you no longer had to right to vote because you buy products that are produced from petroleum, and the system of oil production causes suffering and death to others, or that you purchase products that contain IBM patents, or that you drink Coke products, etc, etc,

I just sense some Catholics on this forum don’t realize that their modern life in America links them the suffering and death of innocent others, and if they don’t want sinners to have certain rights, then they shouldn’t have them either because they choose to encourage and participate in the suffering and death of innocents.

That’s all I’m saying.

 

[zachforn]

A genetic predisposition does not remove culpability for sinful behavior. If someone is genetically predisposed to pedophilia be excused? Of course not. We never have the liscense to do what is right in our own eyes. Everyne has sins they struggle with. Be it drunkeness, temper, lust, pride, or whatever. The point is through the power of the Holy Spirit, we must strive to rise above our “pet sins”

I agree. I’m just trying to end the You Decided to Be Gay argument. God created some people to be Gay. That’s all I’m saying with that one.

 

[CWBetts]

My question to you is do you think the government should take away YOUR rights, or not give them to you in the first place because you make sinful choices?

Imagine if you went to vote and the poll worker informed you that you no longer had to right to vote because you buy products that are produced from petroleum, and the system of oil production causes suffering and death to others, or that you purchase products that contain IBM patents, or that you drink Coke products, etc, etc,

I just sense some Catholics on this forum don’t realize that their modern life in America links them the suffering and death of innocent others, and if they don’t want sinners to have certain rights, then they shouldn’t have them either because they choose to encourage and participate in the suffering and death of innocents.

That’s all I’m saying.

Think about this. What if a parish got sued for not marrying a homosexual couple? Or being charged with a hate crime for saying that homosexual activity is wrong? That is our fear. And truth be told, it is not people living in sin that bothers me. It is their life. But I will not be forced to condone it. Period.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Think about this. What if a parish got sued for not marrying a homosexual couple?

In this country that would be impossible. Even today churches are not required to even marry an interracial couple so I highly doubt there could be found a legal reason to force churches to marry gays.

Or being charged with a hate crime for saying that homosexual activity is wrong?

In other countries this has become a problem. But in the US, its impossible due to the fact the constitution explicitly protects speech. The KKK has made a living out of “hate speech” and no one can legally shut them down.

The issue the Catholic Church will face is when it comes to employees. A gay employee is going to get a civil marriage and then sue to have their partner covered under health insurance or someting. And then we’ll face the question of paying or shutting down whatever agency we’re running.

 

[PEPCIS]

Please read post #250 before you pick up one more stone to hurl at someone.

Advice: focus on YOUR sin and let me worry about mine.

I already dealt with that canard. You didn’t read MY posts very well. You’re centering on how my posts will not back down on your raw emotion. Your equating actions that ALL Americans are contributing to in a social framework to your forcing of your lifestyle on my morals. There is no comparison.

 

[buffalo]

Black clergy opposing gay marriage resent civil rights comparision

 

[ladybri77]

I know ~you~ believe that, and I can understand that view, really, but other people see things differently and are just as certain in their own understanding. Where has God judged homosexuality to be wrong? Jesus, specifically, really. That’s what I’d like pointed out to me. If you don’t know what it’s like to be one, so how can you really know?

Jesus specifically spoke against perversion in the New Testament, not sure of the verse. Also, Paul goes into it in depth in Romans chapter 1 and then in Hebrews. I would suggest reading these.

 

[ladybri77]

I agree. I’m just trying to end the You Decided to Be Gay argument. God created some people to be Gay. That’s all I’m saying with that one.

That’s a lie, He did not “create” people to be gay. He let whatever happened to them happen maybe to bring good out of the situation if the person were to remain celibate which would give Him the glory. Sometimes He allows bad things to happen to bring good out of it.

 

[ladybri77]

My question to you is do you think the government should take away YOUR rights, or not give them to you in the first place because you make sinful choices?

Imagine if you went to vote and the poll worker informed you that you no longer had to right to vote because you buy products that are produced from petroleum, and the system of oil production causes suffering and death to others, or that you purchase products that contain IBM patents, or that you drink Coke products, etc, etc,

I just sense some Catholics on this forum don’t realize that their modern life in America links them the suffering and death of innocent others, and if they don’t want sinners to have certain rights, then they shouldn’t have them either because they choose to encourage and participate in the suffering and death of innocents.

That’s all I’m saying.

We have a moral obligation as Catholic Christians to stop immorality from spreading and to stand up for the foundational sacrament of marriage for which it was originally intended to be in the U.S. and most everywhere else in the world to be between one man and one woman.

 

[ladybri77]

God makes homosexual people, even the Vatican has stated that.

Persona Humana (1976), VIII, para. 2:

“A distinction is drawn, and it seems with some reason, between homosexuals whose tendency comes from a false education, from a lack of normal sexual development, from habit, from bad example, or from other similar causes, and is transitory or at least not incurable; and homosexuals who are definitively such because of some kind of innate instinct or a pathological constitution judged to be incurable.”

I’m glad it really doesn’t say that. It does try to explain it, however. It all comes down to the Fall and sin entering the world. Like there are defects at birth, disease, etc, anything inherently evil that happened because of the Fall - when Eve made that choice to disobey the Lord. That’s when disease and all kind of tribulation entered the world as a result of that one moment of disobedience and is why things like homosexuality and all the other deviant sexual behavior are present in the world today, as part of man’s sin nature.

God doesn’t create evil or unnatural desires. Even though most people wouldn’t choose to be gay, it’s what happens because of sin either present in nature (some anomaly that occured in the womb) or the environment they were brought up in.

I would suggest you research this at Narth.com.

 

[zachforn]

I’m glad it really doesn’t say that. It does try to explain it, however. It all comes down to the Fall and sin entering the world. Like there are defects at birth, disease, etc, anything inherently evil that happened because of the Fall - when Eve made that choice to disobey the Lord. That’s when disease and all kind of tribulation entered the world as a result of that one moment of disobedience and is why things like homosexuality and all the other deviant sexual behavior are present in the world today, as part of man’s sin nature.

God doesn’t create evil or unnatural desires. Even though most people wouldn’t choose to be gay, it’s what happens because of sin either present in nature (some anomaly that occured in the womb) or the environment they were brought up in.

I would suggest you research this at Narth.com.

I’m only showing you what’s been declared:

God is the creator, not Satan, and God created an “innate instinct” in some homosexual people. That’s what the Persona Humana states.

 

[zachforn]

I already dealt with that canard. You didn’t read MY posts very well. You’re centering on how my posts will not back down on your raw emotion. Your equating actions that ALL Americans are contributing to in a social framework to your forcing of your lifestyle on my morals. There is no comparison.

I’m not forcing anything. I’m not making you marry gay people, that would be forcing. I’m not making you accept homosexuality, that would be forcing. You can live your life in any manner you wish, even a Catholic manner. I would just ask the same thing from you.

And like I said, God has presented you a choice: to participate in a “social framework” that causes the suffering and deaths of innocents (mortal sins) or to not participate. You have chosen to participate. Not ALL Americans have made that choice, to present it as a “social framework” necessity (i.e. everyone else is doing it too) was the pseudo-rationalization I was talking about. Not ALL Americans have decided to participate, but you have.

Ignorance of the true situation is not a free-get-out-of-jail-card, because the information is out there. You just don’t want to investigate it or believe it. So What do you do? Do you understand that people are suffering and dying because of you, becuase of your choices?

Again, do you concern yourself with the moral sins of others, or do you focus on your own mortal sins? And if YOU do not change YOUR lifestyle to better serve God’s mercy and love do you have any right to ask others to do so. If your not doing it, why do you want me to do it.

 

[ladybri77]

That’s fine. I was just agreeing with you that many, many, many people on this forum are very, very, very defensive.

I would also ask you about your All-Adam-and-Eve-did-was-eat-a-piece-of-fruit footer quote:

What are your sins? What actions do you take, what behaviors do you exhibit that cause the suffering and death of others? Shouldn’t you be more focused on your sin and changing your life to better align with God’s truth and mercy than hurling stones at what homosexuals do. And if you continue to be “opposed” to the sins of others, while not being opposed to your own sins are you just being a run-of-the-mill hypocrite?

If sinning, or the lack of sinning, is the criteria for having the legal right to do something (like marrying), then do you, who are a sinner as bad as any homosexual, do you have any rights to marriage? This is a serious issue. Why don’t your sins deny you your legal rights?

If I was exclusively opposed to the sin of homosexuality, which I am opposed to it and all sins, even my own. We are taught to love the sinner, hate the sin. But if we don’t stop more abominations from occuring since this is what this post is about - homosexual marriage - then we will not be fulfulling our obligation as Catholic Christians to speak out against it. And if we don’t speak out against it, we are participating in it.

We have every right to speak out against it and not let this kind of immorality reign in a sacred institution as long as we don’t throw stones as we all sin. That’s all we’re doing, trying to stop the spread of more rampant immorality. What is to stop other deviant sexual groups from trying to get “their” rights and forcing it on my family in the schools and elsewhere? If you let immorality run rampant in a society, it will destroy itself. That’s why polygamy, incest and other deviant behavior are outlawed, to maintain a civil society, and so that an everything goes mentality won’t spread affecting the decisions of lawmakers everywhere and eventually destroying the very fabric of our society.

 

[ladybri77]

I’m only showing you what’s been declared:

God is the creator, not Satan, and God created an “innate instinct” in some homosexual people. That’s what the Persona Humana states.

Even if it is “innate” (never been scientifically proven to be born with it), it would just be another anomaly of nature that is deviant, thus not normal, not of God.

And wouldn’t you admit that God lets happen things Satan originates, like disease, addiction and everything that’s wrong in nature?

 

[zachforn]

If I was exclusively opposed to the sin of homosexuality, which I am opposed to it and all sins, even my own. We are taught to love the sinner, hate the sin. But if we don’t stop more abominations from occuring since this is what this post is about - homosexual marriage - then we will not be fulfulling our obligation as Catholic Christians to speak out against it. And if we don’t speak out against it, we are participating in it

We have every right to speak out against it and not let this kind of immorality reign in a sacred institution as long as we don’t throw stones as we all sin. That’s all we’re doing, trying to stop the spread of more rampant immorality. What is to stop other deviant sexual groups from trying to get “their” rights and forcing it on my family in the schools and elsewhere? If you let immorality run rampant in a society, it will destroy itself. That’s why polygamy, incest and other deviant behavior are outlawed, to maintain a civil society, and so that an everything goes mentality won’t spread affecting the decisions of lawmakers everywhere and eventually destroying the very fabric of our society.

Your statement still doesn’t seem to suggest that you understand that you have to rid yourself of your sinful abominations first before focusing on others. Do you not realize that is what must be done as the first step? What right do you have to tell me not to be sinful, when you yourself are being sinful? What Right? That’s my question.

Purge yourself of your sins first.

 

[ladybri77]

Your statement still doesn’t seem to suggest that you understand that you have to rid yourself of your sinful abominations first before focusing on others. Do you not realize that is what must be done as the first step? What right do you have to tell me not to be sinful, when you yourself are being sinful? What Right? That’s my question.

Purge yourself of your sins first.

I didn’t tell anyone not to be sinful, although I would lovingly tell them the consequences of acting out in an everyday lifestyle of sin and how it could harm them, (because we as Christians love them). I am against legalizing gay marriage, legalizing incest as they are now trying to do in Europe, polygamy, and pedophilia possibly becoming legalized. I KNOW these sins occur anyway, it’s the SOCIAL ISSUE of these becoming legalized and prevalent in our society which would affect me and my family and everyone in society. If the sin of murder being legal didn’t affect me and the whole of society, then maybe I wouldn’t be as outspoken. I would still certainly hate the sin and would certainly warn the person doing it how it could affect them spiritually.

I’m not out there trying to legalize sin or telling people’s kids that certain sins are okay (by forcing them to read books that homosexuality is okay in schools). I know I sin, but what am I trying to legalize?

In addition, I used to struggle with same sex attraction and was in some relationships. However, I no longer choose to lead that sinful lifestyle. I choose to live a celibate life as we are all called to do if single or struggle with SSA. Yes, I sin once in awhile, but then I go to confession and try not to do it again. I don’t continually lead a lifestyle that is sinful and is against God as I’ve learned my lesson and don’t want to offend Him any longer.

 

[zachforn]

I didn’t tell anyone not to be sinful, although I would lovingly tell them the consequences of acting out in an everyday lifestyle of sin and how it could harm them, (because we as Christians love them).

In an earlier posting you wrote: “But if we don’t stop more abominations from occurring since this is what this post is about - homosexual marriage - then we will not be fulfilling our obligation as Catholic Christians to speak out against it.”

How do you propose to stop it? Wouldn’t you have to tell sinners to stop sinning, to stop trying to press their sinning ways on you and your country (of course it’s their county as well, you may not want you kids reading about homosexuality, but maybe they do, it is after all their country too, what right do you have to exercise your sins on me, which you do, you know?)

I’’m not out there trying to legalize sin or telling people’s kids that certain sins are okay (by forcing them to read books that homosexuality is okay in schools). I know I sin, but what am I trying to legalize?

By participating in modern American culture you are forcing your sins on someone who does not participate in the society. By using petroleum you knowingly (the info is out there) force your sin onto others who suffer. That’s the argument I’ve been making. You say you don’t force your sin onto those who don’t want it, but Yes, You Do.

 

[ladybri77]

In an earlier posting you wrote: “But if we don’t stop more abominations from occurring since this is what this post is about - homosexual marriage - then we will not be fulfilling our obligation as Catholic Christians to speak out against it.”

How do you propose to stop it? Wouldn’t you have to tell sinners to stop sinning, to stop trying to press their sinning ways on you and your country (of course it’s their county as well, you may not want you kids reading about homosexuality, but maybe they do, it is after all their country too, what right do you have to exercise your sins on me, which you do, you know?)

By participating in modern American culture you are forcing your sins on someone who does not participate in the society. By using petroleum you knowingly (the info is out there) force your sin onto others who suffer. That’s the argument I’ve been making. You say you don’t force your sin onto those who don’t want it, but Yes, You Do.

How is using petroleum affecting you? Do you use the bus or any other form of public transportation?

Living in the society we do, we’re all affected by man’s ways or sins. I meant we could stop gay marriage or put a damper on it by changing the law, tell our lawmakers what we want and don’t want. But not we alone, we would need God’s intervention also. However, He gives us free will, so it’s up to us to change the law and speak out about it…with His help, of course.