The issue of gay intolerance

[zachforn]

Here is a summary of what you are saying, Zach:

• I am a thief.
• You are a liar.
• You are a sinner, and I am a sinner, therefore, you have no right to question what I am doing.

That is an error in logic which works like this:

• We live in a society where laws govern our actions.
• You make an argument against me enforcing those laws because I break a different law than the one that you are breaking.
• You still want to live in this society where laws govern our actions, just not YOUR actions.

And then, if truth be told, you’d be the first one to condemn others for driving their motorcycle to work while you fly to distant points on the globe for your fun.

Incorrect, here’s my “logic” or train of thought:

1.Participtating in modern American society results in innocent people suffering and dying. (do the research)

1. Ignorance of a mortal sin one commits is no defense.
2. We all have freewill to choose.

4… We all choose to participate in the modern American society.

1. We all by choosing to participate are choosing to participate in mortal sin.

(Edited)

 

[CWBetts]

Incorrect, here’s my “logic” or train of thought:

1.Participtating in modern American society results in innocent people suffering and dying. (do the research)

1. Ignorance of a mortal sin one commits is no defense.
2. We all have freewill to choose.

4… We all choose to participate in the modern American society.

1. We all by choosing to participate are choosing to participate in mortal sin.

It’s that simple and obvious.

Never mind. You don’t want to understand. Another comfortable armchair Catholic who is so focused on the other guy’s sin, blinded to what you are doing, to your own abhorrent decisions and their consequences.

So, talk on, prove how I’m wrong, prove how your decisions to buy a certain variety of product doesn’t cause the suffering of innocent others, prove how you have no control over how products are made thus you wash your hands over the consequences, prove how its your prerogative to deflect your personal responsibility, prove it all, prove it all.

Since you are so obsessed with this start another thread instead of trying to derail this one

 

[PEPCIS]

I’m not forcing anything. I’m not making you marry gay people, that would be forcing. I’m not making you accept homosexuality, that would be forcing. You can live your life in any manner you wish, even a Catholic manner. I would just ask the same thing from you.

As I noted to Lynx, you cannot make any such promises, because you are collectively working against EVERYTHING that the church teaches and enforces. The Church operates as a huge chain with many links. Homosexuals recognize that if that the link is broken, that they can break the stranglehold that the church has on this issue. That is why you will find a whole lot of homosexuals at Catholic and other church sites, arguing for their cause.

The only problem is, that even those “well-meaning” homosexuals who would never “force” their lifestyle on us would be instrumental in breaking that link, and therefore the chain itself. They fail to recognize that by breaking the link, they destroy the integrity of the whole chain.

It’s like breaking the deadbolt of a door. You don’t destroy the physical door, you just destroy the integrity of that door to do what it was intended to do.

zach:

Again, do you concern yourself with the moral sins of others, or do you focus on your own mortal sins? And if YOU do not change YOUR lifestyle to better serve God’s mercy and love do you have any right to ask others to do so. If your not doing it, why do you want me to do it.

I concern myself with BOTH. Will you join me?

 

[PEPCIS]

Sometimes I think I just have to relax because it’s in God’s hands anyway. No matter what happens, it’s in His hands…

That’s true, but don’t ever relax to the point of doing nothing. That’s when they’ll win. I really appreciated your most recent comments, and I want you to know I have reconsidered your argument about how homosexuals can be heavily influenced by a perverted environment. It does have a lot of weight to your argument. They can grow into it. But as you and I have both stated, we are still responsible, especially as adults, to answer God for what we do. Thank you!!!

 

[PEPCIS]

Did you not read my entire post? The part where I talked about what the Legal Arena holds to be “Natural Law”?

Just because you don’t like the answer does not mean that I did not read your whole post.

 

[PEPCIS]

Fornication between heterosexuals isn’t a lesser sin [than homosexuality].

Very true. Both will get you to hell.

 

[ladybri77]

Incorrect, here’s my “logic” or train of thought:

1.Participtating in modern American society results in innocent people suffering and dying. (do the research)

1. Ignorance of a mortal sin one commits is no defense.
2. We all have freewill to choose.

4… We all choose to participate in the modern American society.

1. We all by choosing to participate are choosing to participate in mortal sin.

(Edited).

Material things are not inherently evil. Things used in excess, things done to deliberately kill or harm another human being, that is a different story. That’s why murder is illegal. I don’t think anyone on this thread wants to deliberately harm anyone else. This thread is about the issue of homosexual marriage, not about the issue of adultery, fornication or anything else. Please stay on topic.

 

[ladybri77]

That’s true, but don’t ever relax to the point of doing nothing. That’s when they’ll win. I really appreciated your most recent comments, and I want you to know I have reconsidered your argument about how homosexuals can be heavily influenced by a perverted environment. It does have a lot of weight to your argument. They can grow into it. But as you and I have both stated, we are still responsible, especially as adults, to answer God for what we do. Thank you!!!

You’re welcome, glad it was helpful!

 

[Lynxdk]

Yet you cannot guarantee that promise be fulfilled. It is a lie to us.

Maybe you didn’t know it was a lie before. But it is by the very fact that you cannot guarantee what you so boldly promise.

I can’t control other people, only me, so I can only make promises that I can keep for myself. What other people do has no bearing on me and how I am, just like this answer you asked for:

Just do me this one thing: give me just one example where there is some “really twisted people who’ve murdered people in homosexual relationship claiming that God told them to do it.” Please.

Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams
I think you know, even though I used easy words just to say it that way, that I don’t mean to say people literally have God coming down and telling them to do such things, but simply that they take the way the believe to outrageous ends such as these.

but I don’t lump ~them~ in with ~you~ but, as you (or others, again, “you” not meaning “you pepcis”) use handy examples of homosexual protesters barging into churches flinging their problems into the faces of people unaware… it would just be ridiculous, really, if less harm came of such things, harm done on both sides, even if we would each say “but that’s not me, that’s someone else doing it”.

 

[Lynxdk]

Lynx, did you get a chance to read post #299? Just wondered what your thoughts were.

Thank you, Yes. I’ll come back to it a bit later, and a couple of other things, I have a lot to do today, weekend being over

 

[PEPCIS]

Incorrect, here’s my “logic” or train of thought:

1.Participtating in modern American society results in innocent people suffering and dying. (do the research)

1. Ignorance of a mortal sin one commits is no defense.
2. We all have freewill to choose.

4… We all choose to participate in the modern American society.

1. We all by choosing to participate are choosing to participate in mortal sin.

(Edited)

The OP was basically directed toward how we could be Christian/Catholic, and still be “tolerant.” Of course, LaSalle was confused to think that you had to be tolerant. Being tolerant is the complete opposite of standing up for what you believe in. And there certainly should never be an instance of standing up for Christianity and what the Bible teaches.

Your view (as stated above) is an intolerant approach, because it seeks to silence anyone who holds your view of homosexuality as sinful. You do this by trying to invent this convoluted logic that says that someone who breaks the speed limit, or steals quarters from his mother’s purse when he was young, is unqualified to publish his thoughts about morality.

Who then could do it? Where are the perfect people?

In your world, the only morality that is acceptable is that which embraces homosexuality. (Edited)

 

[Michael_Francis]

Material things are not inherently evil. Things used in excess, things done to deliberately

kill or harm another human being, that is a different story. That’s why murder is illegal. I don’t think anyone on this thread wants to deliberately harm anyone else. This thread is about the issue of homosexual marriage, not about the issue of adultery, fornication or anything else.

** Please stay on topic.**

***Exactly!

If this thread deviates again it will be closed.
Sincerely,***

 

[fairytail3982]

It all comes down to the Fall and sin entering the world. Like there are defects at birth, disease, etc, anything inherently evil that happened because of the Fall - when Eve made that choice to disobey the Lord. That’s when disease and all kind of tribulation entered the world as a result of that one moment of disobedience

So, by this reasoning:

Homosexuality and disease both are evils resulting from original sin. Both are “afflictions” affecting the children of God. “Succumbing” to an affliction born of evil is a failure to glorify God and to live up to His image in which we are created. Therefore, homosexuals who do not have the will and strength of character to fight their “affliction” are an abomination to God. Therefore, also, disabled people who do not overcome their disabilities are sinful in nature and are bearing the physical marks of God’s wrath; just as homosexuals must pray hard enough and either seek a “cure” for their desires or sublimate them into a Call to celibacy, perhaps even consecrated celibacy, so must disabled people seek a pure heart and prayerful state worthy of faith healing in order to prove that they are not wicked beings who should be pitied and shunned by the righteous. Hm… I am, of course, playing devil’s advocate, if you’ll pardon the expression. But it is interesting to me to see the parallels drawn.

 

[ladybri77]

So, by this reasoning:

Homosexuality and disease both are evils resulting from original sin. Both are “afflictions” affecting the children of God. “Succumbing” to an affliction born of evil is a failure to glorify God and to live up to His image in which we are created. Therefore, homosexuals who do not have the will and strength of character to fight their “affliction” are an abomination to God. Therefore, also, disabled people who do not overcome their disabilities are sinful in nature and are bearing the physical marks of God’s wrath; just as homosexuals must pray hard enough and either seek a “cure” for their desires or sublimate them into a Call to celibacy, perhaps even consecrated celibacy, so must disabled people seek a pure heart and prayerful state worthy of faith healing in order to prove that they are not wicked beings who should be pitied and shunned by the righteous. Hm… I am, of course, playing devil’s advocate, if you’ll pardon the expression. But it is interesting to me to see the parallels drawn.

Wow, that was certainly a twisting of what I was trying to get across. Because we try and be holy and remain celibate and we fall short at times doesn’t make God hate us at all. Haven’t you tried to give up bad habits that weren’t benefitting you and you were not always successful? God knows that sometimes we will fall, but if we trust in Him, ask Him for His help and give our best effort, then He will honor that.

Since when does the act of homosexuality glorify God? Since God intended man and woman to come together and become one, (see Genesis), and were commanded to reproduce for the perpetuation of society, how does homosexuality fit into that scheme?

They don’t have to seek a “cure” for their affliction. They need to work on becoming closer to God, offering up their everday struggles to Him, letting Him use their cross in whatever way He wants, maybe for the reparation of sinners, to feed the poor, to have more compassion, etc. God can certainly use our crosses whatever they may be, for our good and the good of others and so that He might be glorified through our suffering.

Much of His grace is available to those who struggle to remain in Him and choose to be celibate. They will be blessed abundantly in time if they trust in Him. We can always ask for that kind of faith and to trust in Him as they are key in overcoming.

“To the one who overcomes, I’ll give the manna…” (and other benefits, see Revelations).

 

[Lynxdk]

In your world, the only morality that is acceptable is that which embraces homosexuality.

In your world, the only morality that is acceptable is that which embraces Christianity. I can understand that. I live that way myself.

But so to is this like that for them. We’re stuck with each other. I’m not asking you to change your beliefs. I’m asking you to tolerate people who believe wholly differently than you do. You can’t change the minds of people who know they’re right by telling them they’re wrong.

There’s nothing wrong with homosexual marriage in the context of a civil union between 2 people of the same gender.

Lady,

About the book you mentioned, and also to add into answering Pepcis on a couple of things… Again stating clearly I’m not calling you out as individuals to own up to something as if I’ve caught you at it, I’m generalizing people, but it’s the only way I can word this the way I want to, so please don’t take what I have to say as if I’m accusing you. I’m accusing “both sides” (if you want to look at it as sided when really, I think we’re all on the same side: God’s) of doing the same sorts of things, really…

Yes, I’ve tried to change who I am, spending all kinds of time and money, and in therapies, praying for change in myself, and I truly am happy for you that it’s helped you, and I may, when I can afford it, read that book also, but I so far have never have been more so, feeling right with myself as God has made me than I have come to be, than by simply accepting myself as I am, instead of seeking to change it.

There’s also a misconception, I think, regarding me as a homosexual, that I’m somehow sinful because of it, so people seek to change me when I can’t be. I can understand it, because I know what people see when they see me, how I am, how I behave, when I’m not terrified, at least… I’ve had to hide who I am inside for so long, I still have a hard time just being myself for fear of someone beating the **** out me like when I was a kid… difference now being that I’m a pacifist and would likely stand there and take it, where as a kid I fought back and often won… That never made a difference really. Kids might stop picking on me for a few weeks, afraid they’d get beat up instead of me, but it would just start again when they got over their fear.

So I learned that too. I’m not afraid of you, or your judgments, or how you see me. The only concern I have, really, is how God see’s me.

So people see me, the way I act, and the way I am, the way I dress, and they automatically start making judgments, and assumptions, based on what they think they know, because of what they’ve been told, and No one ever stops to ask… am I celibate?

So where is my sin?

There’s nothing wrong with being a homosexual, and nothing wrong with homosexuality. Jesus never said a word against it, and even the rest of the Bible doesn’t, it’s saying something else, but you would read to defend your own fears instead. The sin you see is the sin you see in yourself, not the sin you see in others. It’s sin you imagine to be their because you just can’t help prying, and peeking through key holes to see what they’re up to, and when the door is shut, and from your little box of fear and sin and shame, you imagine them to be sinning and getting away with it, as if God doesn’t see it, so you have to call them out for it instead. But when ~you’re~ called to the carpet for ~your~ sins you would deny it. “I don’t do that, I’m not like that”, well guess what:

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

There’s nothing wrong with a civil union between 2 people, regardless of gender. There’s nothing wrong with sharing love and affection, regardless of gender. Why don’t you spend all this time fighting something that’s inevitable by civil law and turn your attention to telling them what they’re ~allowed~ to do within God’s laws rather than telling everything they do is wrong, when it’s not. Give them the Good News, not condemn them to Hell because you scared them ~away~ from God rather than invited them ~to~ Him.

Where is it written to love the sinner and hate the sin? Because I only see Jesus say Love the Sinner.

Your intolerance is scaring them away. That’s sad.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Yet you cannot guarantee that promise be fulfilled. It is a lie to us.

Maybe you didn’t know it was a lie before. But it is by the very fact that you cannot guarantee what you so boldly promise.

I can’t control other people, only me, so I can only make promises that I can keep for myself. What other people do has no bearing on me and how I am, just like this answer you asked for:

Poppycock. Of course you can control what other people think and do, by your own expressions, language, actions. You don’t live in a vacuum. Your beliefs are shared by millions of others. These millions of individuals are moving as a collective whole, and you are a part of that collective.

It’s like the Borg, only there is allowance for individual expression - just as long as that expression does not hinder the direction of the collective.

In the same way I can’t stop a bunch of protesters barging in on a church service and causing more people to be upset and angry, you can’t] stop some of the really twisted people who’ve murdered people in homosexual relationship claiming that God told them to do it.

PEPCIS:

Just do me this one thing: give me just one example where there is some “really twisted people who’ve murdered people in homosexual relationship claiming that God told them to do it.” Please.

Lynx:

Benjamin Matthew Williams and James Tyler Williams

Well, I’m glad that you didn’t try to pass off Matthew Shepard as a hate crime. But there are homosexuals who perpetrate crimes against heterosexuals.

But here’s the thing: You are the extreme of your movement, while the Williams’ brothers are the extreme in my movement. You’re taking an extreme crime where someone got killed, and trying to compare that to a GENERAL MOVEMENT in your corner of society. You can’t equate the actions of the most extreme anti-homosexuals, with the GENERAL DIRECTION of the homosexual movement. You’re comparing apples to oranges.

Lynx:

I think you know, even though I used easy words just to say it that way, that I don’t mean to say people literally have God coming down and telling them to do such things, but simply that they take the way the believe to outrageous ends such as these.

Very true. And on your end, you’re taking the extreme views of your movement, and you’re tempering them down to something that is more palatable to the general public, in hopes that most of us will view YOU as representative of the movement as a whole. And you can’t deny this, otherwise, why bother making the distinction? As I said, the distinction is a superficial act on your part that has no bearing on the homosexual movement as a whole.

 

[ladybri77]

In your world, the only morality that is acceptable is that which embraces Christianity. I can understand that. I live that way myself.

But so to is this like that for them. We’re stuck with each other. I’m not asking you to change your beliefs. I’m asking you to tolerate people who believe wholly differently than you do. You can’t change the minds of people who know they’re right by telling them they’re wrong.

There’s nothing wrong with homosexual marriage in the context of a civil union between 2 people of the same gender.

Lady,

About the book you mentioned, and also to add into answering Pepcis on a couple of things… Again stating clearly I’m not calling you out as individuals to own up to something as if I’ve caught you at it, I’m generalizing people, but it’s the only way I can word this the way I want to, so please don’t take what I have to say as if I’m accusing you. I’m accusing “both sides” (if you want to look at it as sided when really, I think we’re all on the same side: God’s) of doing the same sorts of things, really…

Yes, I’ve tried to change who I am, spending all kinds of time and money, and in therapies, praying for change in myself, and I truly am happy for you that it’s helped you, and I may, when I can afford it, read that book also, but I so far have never have been more so, feeling right with myself as God has made me than I have come to be, than by simply accepting myself as I am, instead of seeking to change it.

There’s also a misconception, I think, regarding me as a homosexual, that I’m somehow sinful because of it, so people seek to change me when I can’t be. I can understand it, because I know what people see when they see me, how I am, how I behave, when I’m not terrified, at least… I’ve had to hide who I am inside for so long, I still have a hard time just being myself for fear of someone beating the **** out me like when I was a kid… difference now being that I’m a pacifist and would likely stand there and take it, where as a kid I fought back and often won… That never made a difference really. Kids might stop picking on me for a few weeks, afraid they’d get beat up instead of me, but it would just start again when they got over their fear.

So I learned that too. I’m not afraid of you, or your judgments, or how you see me. The only concern I have, really, is how God see’s me.

Where is it written to love the sinner and hate the sin? Because I only see Jesus say Love the Sinner.

Your intolerance is scaring them away. That’s sad.

Jesus hates sin Himself, but He loves the sinner, so that’s what we’re called to do, be like Jesus. So I am not judging you, I’m judging the sin. If we didn’t have any boundary lines or standards, everything would be legal including pedophilia, people marrying relatives, polygamy, etc. Laws are in effect to protect us from certain kinds of sin. Sin destroys if you haven’t seen it’s effects yet. It’s being loving to tell someone something what could hurt them emotionally and spiritually. I know, you don’t harp on them, you just be there for them, give them your love, and eventually when the time is right, you tell them the Truth, but in a loving way.

It’s not about change unless Jesus heals the person from it, it’s about celibacy, turning away from the behavior, staying close to God, prayer, Mass, adoration, whatever makes one press into God. There’s a Catholic support group called Courage which helps the homosexual struggler remain celibate. They offer prayer, support and encouragement as each one struggles to remain chaste as we are all called to do.

Yes, the first step is to accept yourself and the feelings you have, but we are called to love God and our neighbor. Truly loving someone does not include homosexual sex, I’m sorry to tell you, but it’s true. God loves us so much, He doesn’t want to keep us there. He wants what is best for His children, and homosexuality isn’t His best for us.

I’ve been celibate now for awhile, and I feel less inclined to be attracted to the same sex. I put God first in my life and would never want to sin in that way again. I’ve given you many bible verses on the subject, but you refuse to be open to them. So be it, that’s where you are now. God works miracles. I wish the best for you and will keep you in my prayers.

“He Who began a good work in you, will continue it until the day of Christ Jesus” Phillipians 1:6

Blessings

 

[Lynxdk]

I’ve given you many bible verses on the subject, but you refuse to be open to them. So be it, that’s where you are now. God works miracles. I wish the best for you and will keep you in my prayers.

“He Who began a good work in you, will continue it until the day of Christ Jesus” Phillipians 1:6

Blessings

Why do you make the assumption that I’m not open to them? When I am?

So I am not judging you, I’m judging the sin

Where is my Sin? that’s the first question that you have yet to answer, And why do you think you have to judge it in the first place when Jesus already said that’s not your job?

I’m not trying to mock you, or just sit here and argue endlessly as if I’m being stubborn, I just think it’s funny how much I keep telling you the same thing you’re trying to tell me =)

It seems like we’re arguing, and arguing doesn’t change anything or any ones mind. You can’t tell someone what’s right when you’re too busy telling them that everything they know is wrong. That’s a mistake I make a lot

The thread was about:

The issue now is the perception that those who do not support gay marriages/unions are intolerant. I am simply unable to refute why we are NOT intolerant.

It’s intolerant to get in the way of these things. That’s just how it is. Everything you have to say against it is on very shaky moral grounds, because you have nothing to really stand on, ~especially~ with people who will refuse to listen to anything you might have to say that’s ~right~ for them because you only tell them everything they know is ~wrong~ when it’s ~not~, so instead of them being able to hear you when you tell them the ~right~ things, they’re already ignoring you because you judged everything they know as wrong, when there’s plenty they were doing ~right~. So, like most people, they have to assume that if you’re wrong about this and that and the other thing, then you were wrong about ~everything~, and take everything you have to say as a lie.

Again, just to state clearly, I ~don’t~ mean ~you~ Lady. Like Pepcis, I take everything you’re trying to say to ~me~ in the spirit I can see it was given, so I’m not being defensive towards what ~you~ have to say to ~me~, but the way things come out into the world from “your side” of things, and the way they hear it on ~their side~ of things. If you wanna get through to them, you’re going to have to find a different way than telling them that they can’t have civil marriages. It’s not a battle you can win, because it’s on legal grounds, and the more you try to fight it that way, the more of a rift you put between them and you.

This is silly, really, because we’re not talking about the same thing and I should know better than to keep coming back and arguing when you don’t see the point of what I’m saying.

 

[Lynxdk]

You’re taking an extreme crime where someone got killed, and trying to compare that to a GENERAL MOVEMENT in your corner of society.

Actually, I was trying to do the opposite. Extremists on both sides are what confuses things more, because on both sides people take those, point at them and say “Look! Look at what ~you~ do!” as if I were to accuse you of being a murder because of what someone else did. I think that’s ~wrong~ but you (again, not you specifically) do the same things back. Fighting fire with fire only makes more fire.

Very true. And on your end, you’re taking the extreme views of your movement, and you’re tempering them down to something that is more palatable to the general public, in hopes that most of us will view YOU as representative of the movement as a whole. And you can’t deny this, otherwise, why bother making the distinction? As I said, the distinction is a superficial act on your part that has no bearing on the homosexual movement as a whole.

Again, not really, I can only speak for myself and the way I see it… otherwise I’d be someone else. It’s not superficial, it’s just me =) Feel free to characterize and judge me though I don’t mean that in a mocking way, just kind of a teasing way =P

 

[Lynxdk]

Poppycock. Of course you can control what other people think and do, by your own expressions, language, actions. You don’t live in a vacuum. Your beliefs are shared by millions of others. These millions of individuals are moving as a collective whole, and you are a part of that collective.

It’s like the Borg, only there is allowance for individual expression - just as long as that expression does not hinder the direction of the collective.

And just to back up a little bit, No, I ~can’t~ control what other people think and do. By my expressions and language and actions, however, I can set a good example that I can hope might be followed. History has shown time and again what happens when one group of people try to control another, and history keeps repeating because people don’t learn for the lessons of the past, including the lessons of the Bible.

I am one person, God will judge me as an individual, not on the collection of people I associate myself with.