The legitimacy of devotion to Mary

[R_C]

Catholics who continue to commit offenses against God by “debating” legitimacy devotion to Our Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mary do not understand Mary and not yet worthy of being her devotee.

That is correct, and this statement is a wonderful and charitable blow against pride. Thanks!

Some may not understand the Sacred Tradition regarding Our Lady. In that case, the proper behavior is to quietly and humbly seek understanding, not to stand up and take a position based on our own weak and fallible thoughts. The latter can easily be a pathway to impugning the revealed truth, one of the sins against the Holy Spirit.

The 5th Marian Dogma shall be proclaimed soon.

Hm, I doubt it Despite it all, there is actually a sad tendency to lower the position of Our Lady. I often quote a book by then-Cardinal Ratzinger, “Theological highlights of Vatican II”, which says:

“the old systematic Mariology was to a considerate extent (though not completely) supplanted by a positive and scriptural Mariology”

The book also states a very sad trend according to which the idea of Mary as “co-redemptrix” as well as “mediatrix of all graces” was gone, although the Cardinal is quick to clarify:

“such titles were under the protection of papal teaching”

Finally, he adds:

There should be no misunderstanding. The Council did not aim to slowly but surely dismantle Marian devotion, and through this to gradually adjust to Protestantism.

The aim did however have to take cognizance of the appeal made by separated Christians that the Church move away from a speculative theology that was unmindful of scripture.

To which I usually add: “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”…

 

[AspiringServant]

That is correct, and this statement is a wonderful and charitable blow against pride. Thanks!

Some may not understand the Sacred Tradition regarding Our Lady. In that case, the proper behavior is to quietly and humbly seek understanding, not to stand up and take a position based on our own weak and fallible thoughts. The latter can easily be a pathway to impugning the revealed truth, one of the sins against the Holy Spirit.

Very well stated. We often fall in love with our own personal speculations (i.e. fallible thoughts) rather than simply take directly from the realizations of the Holy Saints.

I feel shameful at the thought of ever being ashamed of my mother.

 

[AspiringServant]

Hm, I doubt it Despite it all, there is actually a sad tendency to lower the position of Our Lady. I often quote a book by then-Cardinal Ratzinger, “Theological highlights of Vatican II”,

:crying:

My friend tells me we have an increase in the numbers of married couples doing the True Devotion to Mary consecration .

…our life, our sweetness and our hope…

 

[JRKH]

Catholics who continue to commit offenses against God by “debating” legitmacy devotion to Our Most Holy Blessed Virgin Mary do not understand Mary and not yet worthy of being her devotee.

(Snip)

I don’t understand this post…

A non-Catholic has asked a question and Catholics are trying to give him good answers. I see no Catholics “debating” devotion to Mary - let alone “offenses against God”…

Now perhaps I have missed something - If so please point out where.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

No such “warning” exists in Lumen Gentium.

From Lumen Gentium paragraph 67…
But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.

I call particular attention to the last section…Keeping away from whatever by word or deed could lead our separated brethren into error…
It is for this reason that I believe it important to allow our separated brothers and sisters to come to know Mary at their own pace.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

:crying:

My friend tells me we have an increase in the numbers of married couples doing the True Devotion to Mary consecration .

…our life, our sweetness and our hope…

I find this to be a bit disturbing…Perhaps you can clarify something for me.

I assume that you are lifting the last line above from the “Hail Holy Queen”. Does your use of it above indicate that you believe Mary is, “our life, our sweetness and our hope”?

I ask because I have always been taught that this phrase is referring to Jesus - that Mary is the Mother of mercy life sweetness and hope…

Peace
James

 

[R_C]

I assume that you are lifting the last line above from the “Hail Holy Queen”. Does your use of it above indicate that you believe Mary is, “our life, our sweetness and our hope”?

I ask because I have always been taught that this phrase is referring to Jesus

St. Alphonsus Ligouri’s book “The Glories of Mary” comes recommended for this topic. He deals with the Hail Holy Queen in it, line by line.

So I found it here, and I quote some titles (I haven’t read it yet, but from what I see it is a wonderful book).

Mary is our Life, because whe obtains for us the Pardon of our Sins. Mary is also our Life, because she obtains for us Perseverance.

Mary our Sweetness; she renders Death sweet

Mary is the hope of all. Mary is the hope of sinners

St. Alphonsus is very strong on Chapter III, “Mary, Our Hope”

So, no doubt, Holy Church does call Mary “our life, our sweetness, and our hope” in the Salve Regina. And, you know, ultimately it’s “to Jesus through Mary”…so ultimately it all refers to Jesus…each and every thing

 

[TerryOfromCA]

All right guys. This is a continuation of the thread from Veneration vs Worship. My personal opinion is that all of them should be given to god. The totality of Veneration and worship is to be directed at god…

1. Worship is latreia in Scripture
2. Reverence is doulia, timin, or phobos, which Scripture says can be given to God or man (to whom it is due by God given right)
3. Veneration is proskynesis

Veneration can be given in latreia (worship, to God alone) or in doulia/honor.

Scripture commands that we “give honor to whom honor is due” (Rom 13.7). 1 Peter 2.17 makes it clear that we are to honor everyone in their station. We are to fear God, and even honor the pagan basilea (the case at the time). In case you doubt this, go few verses earlier to 1 Peter 2.13. If this is true of God’s enemies, how much more true about his friends.

 

[JRKH]

So I found it here, and I quote some titles (I haven’t read it yet, but from what I see it is a wonderful book).

St. Alphonsus is very strong on Chapter III, “Mary, Our Hope”

So, no doubt, Holy Church does call Mary “our life, our sweetness, and our hope” in the Salve Regina. And, you know, ultimately it’s “to Jesus through Mary”…so ultimately it all refers to Jesus…each and every thing

hhmmmm…Well there does seem to be some disagreement on this.
As I have said…I have always been taught that it is Jesus who is our mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope.
An old thread here had a number of people explaining how in this prayer these do not refer to Mary but to Jesus. That any problem lay in the idea of a clunky translation.

I’m not arguing with St Alphonsus - I’m just pointing out that there seems to be different understandings.

Peace
James

 

[JM3]

Today, of course, worship means only our attitude to God Almighty, and it is to God alone whom we give all highest honour and supreme worship.

From Merriam-Webster

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

worship - noun

1 chiefly British: a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence
3 a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

worship - verb - transitive verb -
1 to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

intransitive verb - to perform or take part in worship or an act of worship

Synonyms: adore, deify, glorify, revere, reverence, venerate

 

[JM3]

hhmmmm…Well there does seem to be some disagreement on this.
As I have said…I have always been taught that it is Jesus who is our mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope.
An old thread here had a number of people explaining how in this prayer these do not refer to Mary but to Jesus. That any problem lay in the idea of a clunky translation.

I’m not arguing with St Alphonsus - I’m just pointing out that there seems to be different understandings.

Peace
James

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve,
to thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley, of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us;
and after this our exile show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

 

[R_C]

hhmmmm…Well there does seem to be some disagreement on this.
As I have said…I have always been taught that it is Jesus who is our mercy, our life our sweetness and our hope.
An old thread here had a number of people explaining how in this prayer these do not refer to Mary but to Jesus. That any problem lay in the idea of a clunky translation.

I’m not arguing with St Alphonsus - I’m just pointing out that there seems to be different understandings.

Peace
James

I understand Ultimately Jesus is our savior and salvation is found in no one else.

@ JM3

Salve, Regina, Mater misericordiæ,
vita, dulcedo, et spes nostra, salve.

Some may see the translation as being “Mother of mercy, of life, of sweetness, and of our hope”. However, it appears that the “consensus” (especially because of the last “salve”) is that Our Lady is being saluted with 5 different titles.

 

[brb3]

So I found it here, and I quote some titles (I haven’t read it yet, but from what I see it is a wonderful book).

St. Alphonsus is very strong on Chapter III, “Mary, Our Hope”

So, no doubt, Holy Church does call Mary “our life, our sweetness, and our hope” in the Salve Regina. And, you know, ultimately it’s “to Jesus through Mary”…so ultimately it all refers to Jesus…each and every thing

Wow …

Another Red Flag warning !

 

[JM3]

The 5th Marian Dogma shall be proclaimed soon.

I’ve always found it interesting that Our Blessed Mother did not use the title “Immaculate Conception” for herself (1858) until the Church had defined it (1854).

As for Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all Graces, they are supported by scripture. Luke 1:41 shows that St. John the Baptist and St. Elizabeth were both cleansed of original sin through Mary (notice I did not say “by Mary”, but “through Mary”).

Hopefully, we will learn our place in the economy of salvation and, once again, be not afraid.

 

[brb3]

I’ve always found it interesting that Our Blessed Mother did not use the title “Immaculate Conception” for herself (1858) until the Church had defined it (1854).

As for Co-Redemptrix and Mediatrix of all Graces, they are supported by scripture. Luke 1:41 shows that St. John the Baptist and St. Elizabeth were both cleansed of original sin through Mary (notice I did not say “by Mary”, but “through Mary”).

Hopefully, we will learn our place in the economy of salvation and, once again, be not afraid.

Yes, very true, but actually disturbing is the word that comes to mind. Lourdes never seemed credible to me …call me a heretic, but it just doesn’t add up !!

 

[JM3]

Yes, very true, but actually disturbing is the word that comes to mind. Lourdes never seemed credible to me …call me a heretic, but it just doesn’t adds up !!

And, yet, there is the holiness of St. Bernadette and the many miracles of Lourdes that give testimony. Harden not your heart.

 

[JRKH]

I understand Ultimately Jesus is our savior and salvation is found in no one else.

@ JM3

Some may see the translation as being “Mother of mercy, of life, of sweetness, and of our hope”. However, it appears that the “consensus” (especially because of the last “salve”) is that Our Lady is being saluted with 5 different titles.

Consensus is a wonderful thing.

I would just note as an aside that, especially in private prayer, it is important that one be able to pray using language that is comfortable to them. When one speaks to their mother, they use their own words of love - ones that feel right to them and are comfortable. Mothers appreciate that.

Peace
James

 

[JM3]

How can honoring the father mean not honoring the mother?

I remember, when I was young (yeah, back in the stone age ), that when my mother said to do something, I felt that I could debate, or argue, with her. That is, until dad gave me the “look” or said “do it” and I did as I was told, even though I thought it unreasonable. I don’t think I would want to get that “look” from God.

I wonder how many people understand what Mary truly meant when she said “My soul magnifies the Lord”.

 

[De_Montfort]

“The honor of His Mother. This is another chief interest of Jesus, and the whole history of the Church shows how near it lies to His Sacred Heart.”

“The right doctrine of Jesus has in all ages been wrapped up with the true devotion to Mary.”

“The Saints are molded on the love of her.”

“Thus has Jesus put her in front of His Church, that she should be the token of all good, and the stumbling block of His enemies. What wonder then that His interests are deeply concerned with her honor.”

All quotes Fr. Faber.

But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from** petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God**.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.

This has more than one warning in it. “Petty” means, relatively unimportant, small minded, relatively low in rank. So we cannot belittle the Mother of God either. I see no exaggerations in this thread.

 

[R_C]

Consensus is a wonderful thing.

And I hope I’m using the term properly