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Kingtroll1
Guest
Originally it was intended to be a joke. Made in the spur of the moment.Ok, seriously, Kingtroll1, your username worries me
Just find out about the hyperdulia tributed to her, which is of the same kind of honor (veneration) given to saints (dulia) but greater, since, you know, she is God’s mother. And by the way the saints aren’t honored for being heroes of the faith, but because they are members of the Church Triumphant in the Communion of Saints, which means that they are members of the mystical body of Christ. It is truly Christ being honored.
Indeed, ultimately all honor given to saints and to Our Lady is actually given to God, so the totality of veneration and worship is already directed to God.
It is, however, an old protestant heresy to claim that it is erroneous or even bad to honor the saints or God’s mother. The Church has done this for literally almost 20 centuries, and we know that God is well-pleased by this.
But protestants honor the saints are heroes of faith examples to be imitated. This is protestant dulia
But to make statues of icons of them. Bowing down to them in reverence. Or praying to them(so they can pray for us) as if they were omniscient because saints cannot hear millions of prayer at once(Also it is communicating with the dead which the bible condemns). And singing hymns to them is and only reserved for YHWH. That is latria.
Of course the basis of my faith is the tanakh as defined by the hebrews. And the new testament. No provision as far as I know has been made for the kind of veneration that Roman Catholicism gives for them from the word of God the ultimate authority.
Whose words have precedence above every tradition manufactured by man.
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Kingtroll1
Guest
He can just revive her on the last day. As he would all of the saints.How can honoring the father mean not honoring the mother?
I remember, when I was young (yeah, back in the stone age), that when my mother said to do something, I felt that I could debate, or argue, with her. That is, until dad gave me the “look” or said “do it” and I did as I was told, even though I thought it unreasonable. I don’t think I would want to get that “look” from God.
I wonder how many people understand what Mary truly meant when she said “My soul magnifies the Lord”.
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Kingtroll1
Guest
I am pretty sure if that is so according to Fr. Faber. That he would have scripture to back up his claim.
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Catholic80
Guest
I think there is a difference between the one who questions in doubt and the person who defends, versus the one who has a sincere question and the one who tries to explain. For example both Zechariah and Mary were told about impossible pregnancies… Zechariah was told that Elizabeth, who was barren, would become pregnant, and Mary was told she was to be the Mother of God. BOTH questioned the angel… Zechariah: “How can I be sure of this?I am an old man and my wife is well along in years.” and Mary: “How can this be, since I have had no relations with a man?” The angel struck Zechariah dumb, but he answered Mary’s question. Why the difference?
Because Mary’s question didn’t go against her faith. She was actually wanting to know. But Zechariah 's question was one of doubt and skepticism.
If a person is lambasting Mary and our Catholic devotion to her, it is a waste of time to explain. “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Or you will also be like him.” or “Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you” but to the one who is truly seeking an answer, we have an obligation to respond. “Reprove a wise man and he will love you.”
It’s hard to tell on message boards, and I could be wrong, but the OP seemed to truly be seeking rather than “scoffing.”
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Catholic80
Guest
I once heard a quote by Mother Teresa that said something along the lines of, ‘If people are drawn to me rather than being drawn to Christ, than I am am too full of self.’
That’s a terrible paraphrase, and I heard it long ago, but the general idea is there.
I don’t think there is anyone less full of self than Mary. She is completely empty of herself and “FULL of Grace.” She was the perfect vessel. Mary can only draw us closer to Christ because that is the very nature of her being - to bring Christ into the world! To bring Christ to us!
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JM3
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R_C
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Actually, if you knew more on Sacred Scripture and the development of the New Testament, you’d learn that the protestant heresy is badly mistaken with these claims, because the Church honored the martyrs in what later became known as dulia while the New Testament was still being written and the Canon collected. Like I said, you don’t seem to understand what latria is. I know of a pseudoChristian cult that refuses to sing the national anthem, claiming that singing a hymn to one’s nation is latria…same old error, just taken a bit too far.
And, by the way, sola Scriptura is also a poor, sad little error, since the very Word of God testifies on behalf of Sacred Tradition:
By the way, can you explain to me how the joys and music and dances before the Ark of the Covenant do not constitute a sin of idolatry according to this view of yours? Because to me it’s quite obvious that the Ark which had figures of angels and contained stone tables was receiving veneration because of its relationship with God and because in it was God’s word…but when we offer such veneration to She who bore in her womb the living Word of God you claim it’s idolatry and offensive to God…do you understand where the error lies in this doctrine you put your faith in?
And as for communicating with the holy souls of the departed, the Holy Bible speaks of this and does not condemn it. However, the pages of the Sacred Scripture that speak of this were ripped off during the so-called “reform” by the same heretics who then mislead millions by proclaiming that the Bible was the only guide - their version of the Bible, of course. And it’s your opinion that the saints of the Church Triumphant cannot hear all prayers…I invite you to try to wrap your mind around the fact that heaven is in eternity, and eternity is outside of time.
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AspiringServant
Guest
“My daughter, the reason is simple. There are five types of offenses and blasphemies committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary:
Code:
Blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception.
Blasphemies against Her Perpetual Virginity.
Blasphemies against Her Divine Maternity, in refusing at the same time to recognize Her as the Mother of men.
The blasphemies of those who publicly seek to sow in the hearts of children indifference or scorn, or even hatred of this Immaculate Mother.
The offenses of those who outrage Her directly in Her holy images. “Here, My daughter, is the reason why the Immaculate Heart of Mary inspired Me to ask for this little act of Reparation ...”
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AspiringServant
Guest
General answer to all:
Pray the Rosary every day!
“Such is the will of God that we should have everything through Mary.”
~Saint Alphonsus Liguori~
“If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead.”
~Gregory of Nazianzus,To Cledonius,101(A.D. 382)~
“Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected. From this you may take your pattern of life, showing, as an example, the clear rules of virtue: what you have to correct, to effect, and to hold fast. The first thing which kindles ardour in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God?”
~ Saint Ambrose ~
“Whoever does not wish to have Mary Immaculate as his Mother will not have Christ as his Brother.”
~ Saint Maximillian Kolbe ~
“But the power of Mary over all the devils will especially shine forth in the latter times, when Satan will lay his snares against her heel: that is to say, her humble slaves and her poor children, whom she will raise up to make war against him. They shall be little and poor in the world’s esteem, and abased before all like the heel, trodden underfoot and persecuted as the heel is by the other members of the body. But in return for this they shall be rich in the grace of God, which Mary shall distribute to them abundantly. They shall be great and exalted before God in sanctity, superior to all other creatures by their lively zeal, and so well sustained with God’s assistance that, with the humility of their heel, in union with Mary, they shall crush the head of the devil and cause Jesus Christ to triumph.”
~ Saint Louis de Montfort ~True Devotion to Mary ~
Pray the Rosary every day!
“Such is the will of God that we should have everything through Mary.”
~Saint Alphonsus Liguori~
“If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead.”
~Gregory of Nazianzus,To Cledonius,101(A.D. 382)~
“Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected. From this you may take your pattern of life, showing, as an example, the clear rules of virtue: what you have to correct, to effect, and to hold fast. The first thing which kindles ardour in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God?”
~ Saint Ambrose ~
“Whoever does not wish to have Mary Immaculate as his Mother will not have Christ as his Brother.”
~ Saint Maximillian Kolbe ~
“But the power of Mary over all the devils will especially shine forth in the latter times, when Satan will lay his snares against her heel: that is to say, her humble slaves and her poor children, whom she will raise up to make war against him. They shall be little and poor in the world’s esteem, and abased before all like the heel, trodden underfoot and persecuted as the heel is by the other members of the body. But in return for this they shall be rich in the grace of God, which Mary shall distribute to them abundantly. They shall be great and exalted before God in sanctity, superior to all other creatures by their lively zeal, and so well sustained with God’s assistance that, with the humility of their heel, in union with Mary, they shall crush the head of the devil and cause Jesus Christ to triumph.”
~ Saint Louis de Montfort ~True Devotion to Mary ~
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Catholic80
Guest
Your last post doesn’t follow the one I am commenting on. The post I commented on was when you wrote:
Maybe I misunderstood, and correct me if I’m wrong, but to me, it sounds as if you are reproving this thread and at the same time, participating in it. My reply was that if someone does have a serious inquiry in matters of faith, this particular one being about Mary, then we have an obligation to respond and further their understanding. It is not “justifying to the feeble” as you put it. If someone truly wants to know why we Catholics have such a devotion to Mary, then we should be happy to explain.
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brb3
Guest
Sorry, but where are all these scriptures that support saint intercession, and where do we learn of Mary’s primacy role as intercessor in scripture ?hi Kingtroll1,
Here’s my answer.
Saints in the Roman Catholic Church are venerated – not worshiped – as some mistakenly believe.
English language tends to fall short when it comes to the use of certain words. For example, we have one word for love, yet we use this word interchangeably to describe many different “feelings” of love. We say, “I love my parents”, or “I love chocolate” or even, “I love my spouse”, yet all these different phrases of love do not have the same definition.
Centuries ago, it may have been said that a saint gets “worship”, because the word came from the Old English weorthscipe, which simply meant “worthy of honour” or “worthy of respect”. That is why British speakers of English used to say “Your Worship” as a title of courtesy to people in a position of honour or power (such as Kings), and why we still address a judge as “Your Honour”.
Today, of course, worship means only our attitude to God Almighty, and it is to God alone whom we give all highest honour and supreme worship.
In Latin, which is richer than English in meanings of words, the worship owed to God alone is called LATRIA, a word that has its roots in the ancient Greek word, latreía, meaning the adoration that humans owe to the divine. It’s a matter of acknowledging your total dependence upon God. The respect that we owe to the saints is a totally different kind of attitude; it’s called DULIA, which means “appropriate” or “fitting and proper” as when you say that someone acts dutifully, or that a trial was handled with due process. In an everyday sense of the word,* dulia is our demeanor in court or meeting the President; it’s much more like what you’d call courtesy than what you’d call worship.* Dulia comes from the Greek word douleia, meaning “service” or “slave”. In Luke 1:38, 48 Mary’s description of herself as doule translates as “handmaiden” / “female slave” – (Slave more in the sense of “servant”).
For Mary, the Mother of God, we have a variation of dulia that is often misunderstood: HYPERDULIA. This is a higher kind of reverence that’s given only to Mary, who is considered first among the saints. Note that this is basically dulia, only higher. [The word hyper comes from the Greek: hypér “over”,” above”]. It is an entirely different thing from latria, and it can’t lessen the unique honour owed to God.
It’s never correct to say that the Church worships Mary or the Saints – it hasn’t been correct since people stopped speaking Old English, anyway. In recognition of Mary’s unique relationship with God, the Church gives to Mary a unique reverence notably higher than the respect given to other saints. Reverence means: a feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration; honour.]
From the beginning of the Church era, Christians began to venerate the martyrs as saints. Venerate means to hold in deep respect and honour in recognition of qualities of holiness, excellence, wisdom, etc.] They believed that the martyrs, (the word comes from the Greek, meaning WITNESS) who suffered and died for their unshakable belief in Christ, went straight to heaven and could therefore be effective as intercessors for the living. By the 3rd century the veneration of the martyr saints was already common. [An intercessor is one who will intercede (plead or request) or offer petitionary prayers to God on behalf of others.] In Revelation we are told that the Saints and angels in heaven hear, and carry our prayers to God.
You may have heard non-Catholics saying that there is only one intercessor between man and God, and that is Jesus, himself not only divine, but human, (see 1 Timothy 2:5), therefore, they say, it is wrong to pray to the Saints or angels in heaven, but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us as 1 Tim 2:1-4 tells us to:
1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Others may say that Saints are dead, and cannot hear us, and we are to only pray to God. However, there are many passages in Scripture that tells us to pray for one another, and that the angels and saints in heaven carry our prayers to the heavenly altar of God.
God made it clear that those who died are still alive (in their spirit/soul), for He is the God of the living. When Christ had the Transformation, the spirits (souls) of Moses and Elijah appeared beside Him. Same when the witch was told by King Saul to conjure up the soul of the dead prophet Samuel. (See 1 Sam 28:8-14) We were created to be immortal, the soul is the part that animates our corporeal matter, and upon death the immortal soul leaves the body, the body returns to “dust”. However, one day, when Christ returns, the bodies of the dead will be resurrected and are eternal, reunited with the immortal soul. This is all Biblical.
Blessings,
CEM
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AspiringServant
Guest
Yes. You misunderstand. Protestants and Catholics are readers. My comments regarding ‘feeble’ is addressed to Catholics who are ‘on the fence’ about Marian dogma. Marian dogmas are infallible teachings of the church.
There is no need to justify Mary. We have our saints and popes who have spoken and it is actually a sin of mental speculation to contradict or try to add or subtract from these holy ones.
Mental speculation is the same is the sin of gambling with your soul. Protestantism is steeped with the sin of mental speculation as there are 10s of 1000s of denominations.
It is prideful to assume we can know better than our holy saints and servants of Mary (e.g. St. Ephrem, St. Bonaventure, St. Anthony, St. Bernard, etc. etc.)
Since the Marian dogmas are part of Catholicism, all Catholics are required to submit their intelligence to our Holy Saints and Fathers, just as the Glorious St. Joseph submitted his intellect to God.
Therefore I invoke Saint Joseph on behalf of all those reading this thread. St. Joseph, next to Jesus, was closest to Our Blessed Mother on earth, and he is never invoked in vain.
(take from the St. Joseph Novena)
*SAINT JOSEPH, MODEL OF THE LIFE OF FAITH
The words of the great Apostle: “The just man liveth by faith,” may be applied particularly to Saint Joseph who was the most just of men and whose life was ever guided by faith. Joseph** submitted his intelligence to the holy truths of religion**. He applied his heart from his tenderest infancy to the observance of the divine precepts.
In the trials and sorrows of life, Joseph was sustained by faith. He shaped his whole conduct by the desire to please God and he attained the great aim of man upon earth, which is to adore God, to serve Him, and hence to deserve the everlasting Truth.
Let us glorify this great Servant of God who possessed a faith so universal, so simple, so enlightened, so firm, so constant, and, above all, so fruitful in good works.
Let us examine ourselves with regard to this great virtue and see how we resemble him.
Is my faith firm, unshaken? Is my conduct animated by faith? Is the predominant thought that directs my acts to please God, and to obtain merit for everlasting life? Have I tried to derive consolation and strength from the thought of faith in time of trial?*
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AspiringServant
Guest
The Annunciation. Our Lord came here through Mary … our life our sweetness and our hope.
One can never taste or relish the nectar of Mary’s her spousal love of God, or her ecstatic loving exchange with Him who she contained. This is called personal relationship.
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Arizona_Mike
Guest
As St. Augustine said in one of his sermons, the God that could not be contained by all the sky was sheltered and protected in her womb.
That’s worthy of veneration if anything is.
That’s worthy of veneration if anything is.
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De_Montfort
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Just to be clear, what are these Marian dogmas that you are talking about?
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Kingtroll1
Guest
This will be a long one. But here is my argument for sola scriptura:
Because that is the tradition of the church fathers. And of the apostles and of Jesus all of which used scripture as a basis of all their doctrines. Because the scriptures stand alone as God’s Word(god-breathed inspired by the holy spirit) whose word is above all the words of men.
*
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” *
Vol. 1, Irenaeus, “Against Heresies” 3.1.1, p. 414
And according to Heiko Oberman:
*“Scripture and tradition were for the early church in no sense mutually exclusive: kerygma
(the message of the gospel), Scripture and Tradition coincided entirely. The church preached
the kerygma, which is found in toto in written form in the canonical books. The tradition was
not understood as an addition to the kerygma contained in Scripture but as handing down that
same kerygma in living form: in other words everything was to be found in Scripture and at
the same time everything was in living Tradition”. *
The Harvest of Medieval Theology (Cambridge: Harvard University, 1963), p. 366
*“The generality of men still fluctuate in their opinions about this, which are as erroneous as they are numerous. As for ourselves, if the Gentile philosophy, which deals methodically with all these points, were really adequate for a demonstration, it would certainly be superfluous to add a discussion on the soul to those speculations. But while the latter proceeded, on the subject of the soul, as far in the direction of supposed consequences as the thinker pleased, we are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.”
*
Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, editors, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Peabody: Hendriksen, 1995) Second Series: Volume V, Gregory of Nyssa: Dogmatic Treatises, “On the Soul and the Resurrection”, p. 439.
Because that is the tradition of the church fathers. And of the apostles and of Jesus all of which used scripture as a basis of all their doctrines. Because the scriptures stand alone as God’s Word(god-breathed inspired by the holy spirit) whose word is above all the words of men.
*
“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.” *
Vol. 1, Irenaeus, “Against Heresies” 3.1.1, p. 414
And according to Heiko Oberman:
*“Scripture and tradition were for the early church in no sense mutually exclusive: kerygma
(the message of the gospel), Scripture and Tradition coincided entirely. The church preached
the kerygma, which is found in toto in written form in the canonical books. The tradition was
not understood as an addition to the kerygma contained in Scripture but as handing down that
same kerygma in living form: in other words everything was to be found in Scripture and at
the same time everything was in living Tradition”. *
The Harvest of Medieval Theology (Cambridge: Harvard University, 1963), p. 366
*“The generality of men still fluctuate in their opinions about this, which are as erroneous as they are numerous. As for ourselves, if the Gentile philosophy, which deals methodically with all these points, were really adequate for a demonstration, it would certainly be superfluous to add a discussion on the soul to those speculations. But while the latter proceeded, on the subject of the soul, as far in the direction of supposed consequences as the thinker pleased, we are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings.”
*
Philip Schaff and Henry Wace, editors, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Peabody: Hendriksen, 1995) Second Series: Volume V, Gregory of Nyssa: Dogmatic Treatises, “On the Soul and the Resurrection”, p. 439.
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CEM5
Guest
Hi brb3,
I had posted the following in another topic:
Yes there is scriptural basis, and yes, it is traditional.
In Revelation 5:8,
“8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
We see here that the saints in heaven carry our prayers to the Lord and not only the saints, but angels also bring our prayers to the Lord.
Rev 8:3-4
3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.
The angel Raphael brought prayers to heaven:
Tobit 12:12 (This is what the angel Raphael said)
“12 So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you would bury the dead.”
Jesus also warned us in Matthew 18:10, of the intercessary role of children’s guardian angels…
Matthew 18:10 "Take care that you do not despise one of these little ones; for, I tell you, in heaven their angels continually see the face of my Father in heaven.
We are also told by Jesus in Scripture that the departed are not dead: they are alive (in heaven).
Mark 12:26-27
26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the story about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27 He is God not of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”
God hears the prayer of the righteous (and who is more righteous with a certainty than those in heaven!),
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.
God does not listen to sinners:
John 9:31
31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but he does listen to one who worships him and obeys his will.
He does hear us when we are truly repentent, nonetheless, if our angels and our Saints in heaven carry our prayers to God in heaven, and we know they are righteous, then we are ensured that God will hear our prayers. They are interceding for us, especially when we sin, and in need of God’s “ear”.
That is why we ask Mary, Mother of our Lord, to “pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death” in the Hail Mary. (Which, btw, the first half of this prayer is directly from Scripture and what Elizabeth spoke to Mary, and the angel’s greeting to Mary in John 1.
Blessings, hope this was some help
CEM
P.S. Mary was the first one who instigated the first miracle by interceding at the Wedding Feast in Cana when she noticed that the Bride and Groom ran out of wine, and brought it up to Jesus:
John 2:
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Mary continues to intercede for us as any good, loving, concerned Mother will do. She is also the finger that points to us and says “Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you”.
T
thenobes
Guest
Although this is going to go off-topic, You might want to re-check your understanding of that passage by Irenaeus.
This passage, considered as follows, is perfectly in synch with what the Catholic Church believes:
Quote:
We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those
through whom the Gospel has come down to us
(which they did at one time proclaim in public, and,
at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures,)
to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
In other words it is the Gospel which is to be the pillar and ground of our faith, The fact that we later received this Gospel in written form, as was said above, is no reason to discount the former oral version of this gospel…
Also, this construction,“to be pillar and foundation of our faith”, is not an infinitive in Latin, but rather a future participle of being which agrees with the word “Gospel” in gender, declension and number; it is definitely not an infinitive of purpose attached to “handed done to us in scriptures [writings]”
Iraneus follows with drawing out the nature of the scriptures and why they should be believed, but afterwards says that even if one suspects they are being interpreted wrong, one has the Tradition of the Apostles to support the Church’s interpretations.
peace
steve
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