The Liberal Agnostic Secular Humanist Four-Year Old

[twb1621]

My position is not that we should not educate children, it is that we should not label children according to their parent’s beliefs.

Hi Leela, sorry I missed you… I know you said you have no interest in learning about God, (not sure why you come here in that case) but for those who believe in God and refer to the Bible, we will say at this time Old Testament, God made it clear that parents are responsible for their children and to teach their children all about God especially His love for us. Regardless of what denomination it may be, that is part of the teaching of the Old Testament. Until children are of an age to choose to accept God or not to, this is the responsibility the parents have and of course are going to pass on based on their faith. That is of course the way it was.

Now If we look at the last 50 to 60 years for example, much like you in some ways the generations from the 60’s and 70’s have pulled drastically away from God. Parents not only lost much of what they use to know and practice through the teachings of their parents, they lost the concept of teaching their children about God as well. Their priorities centered mostly on their “goals” not realizing the goals are actually set by industry through commercialism and absorbed by our own self pride. All this is evident in what we have called progress.

We have enacted laws and given our approvals for abortion, the selective elimination of the most vulnerable of human life.
We are working diligently to eliminate the words “In God We Trust” from our currency. Is it we no longer believe in Him? More likely we don’t even take the time to consider it much at all.
We are, in a growing number of our states, supporting the legalization of “same sex” marriages and some barbaric means to pursue stem cell research.
We have “drive-by” shootings and assaults performed against our youths by our youths;
We discipline children for outward signs of affection when they so much as hug a friend; We produce serial killers who can select people at random, look down the sights of a sniper rifle while hidden and end a life for amusement;
We have school massacres performed by our children gunning down our children; fathers and mothers not only killing each other but killing their own infants and children before committing suicide;
We have families destitute and living in cardboard boxes under bridges while some corporate executives receive hundreds of millions of dollars in bonus money in one quarter (not including their regular income). Is it because they are legitimately successful? No, more often than not it is because they are full of greed to a point they have fraudulently manipulated the markets and their investors.
By the way, it is our public officials who are now taking our tax dollars from many of those who contributed now living on the streets to bail out the banks and businesses who put them out on the streets.
Many institutions including commercial businesses will not allow employees to say the Words “Merry Christmas” as a greeting. But it still represents the Celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ whether some like it or not. Many of the business owners will pray for a successful sales season I’m sure. And on it goes as if the time will never come that we will have to answer for the transgressions of the society we created.
So in fact up to recently more people have fallen away from God. I say until recently because there has been a rather sudden substantial increase in converts to Catholicism including Muslims, converting atheists, Jews and fallen away Christians returning as well. Regardless of your personal beliefs, this should make things a bit safer even for you depending on where you live over time. You know, everything that has occurred over the last 2000 years has been professed in the Bible, it hasn’t been wrong yet. You also may want to consider these things also have been prophesied in revelations.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

If a child is born to French parents, should he be allowed to wait until the age of reason or adulthood to decide if he wants to be declared a French citizen?

Thanks for giving me that very good argument on hand

Well - ALL arguments atheists bring, are always “more of a step backwards”
but they don’t know until they see.
They will see - just wait

But to the age: For a certain happening, when I was a Four-Year Old, 68 years ago, (I lay in the bed of on old aunt I loved, and suddenly all rushed about - tore me out of this bed of hers and rushed me away. The aut had died an I had not noticed) and I very well remember when I was told auty had died, I said - don’t worry she is in heaven now and very happy!
So, in the age of 4, I was a very religious and truly Christian child!
AS VERY MANY ARE! I know!
Thanks God for this and thanks heavens we have religious enough parents and other relatives and friends, who bring up their Children in God.
I am very very thankful to my parents they did!

**

 

[Pier]

**

Thanks for giving me that very good argument on hand **

You’re welcome!

Well - ALL arguments atheists bring, are always “more of a step backwards”
but they don’t know until they see.
They will see - just wait

Just as you related, children can know of & understand about God. Jesus said to bring the children to Him, & His word is law. That said, God does allow us to choose freely, so praying for our atheist friends is hopefully not too long a list!

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**What does NOT TOO LONG A LIST mean?
Yes of course praying for them that they open their heart and mind and finally understand. But also telling them in plain and clear words – not what we believe is right (they mistake the word “BELIEVE” a something one might believe or not, like a (where is my dict. “assumption, expectation, hypothesis”. It’s not – it’s the one and only truth.
We have to tell’m that in clear words.

Sadly enough, as we experience here in this CAF as in everyday life; a normal, friendly talk about faith in God mostly seems impossible with nonbelievers of all forms. It in more cases than not, ends up with insults of these atheists. Insults they cast not only upon us, but upon God and anything holy.

This is clearly to be called primitive. They know that this laughing at God and us hurts. It hurts not because our pride is hurt – not at all! But it hurts for two other reasons, just as when we hear badmouth talk about other mom and dad it hurts. They know this, but often do it on purpose.
It hurts for another, far more dangerous reason, as we learn of. Gal 6,7-8
Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit.

So, when we speak to atheists, we have to be careful – not so much about our words – but a lot more about not to steer their reactions and words into possible insult of God (blasphemy). So I often break off and talk about somet else, rather than to let them go on. Next time another homeopathic dose

It only happened one single time in my life, that after many such talks an atheist lady apologized for insulting me. I told him, that in fact it’s meaningless she “insulted me”, I’m far more bothered of her insulting God, and she asked “how do you mean?”

Why do you think I’m telling you about faith in God, which you don’t wanna hear?! It’s because I care about you. I don’t want to let to go straight into that disaster, without telling you. That’s what’s called Christian love…

Now again to the question of the thread; Jesus said: "Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, 3 you will not enter the kingdom of heaven”. Mat 18,3
Yes, there are millions of small Children full of the truth of God! Let’s take this truth religious children own, as adults with all adults reason it takes, to REALLY live in God.
**

 

[PRmerger]

**
Sadly enough, as we experience here in this CAF as in everyday life; a normal, friendly talk about faith in God mostly seems impossible with nonbelievers of all forms. It in more cases than not, ends up with insults of these atheists. Insults they cast not only upon us, but upon God and anything holy. .
**

Usually, sadly, it seems that this is indeed the case with atheists. It seems that there are quite a few teenage boys masquerading as atheists and gleefully insulting those who are defending their beliefs.

However, I must defend Leela (the OP) here, as she is rather polite and considerate!

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

not
But it hurts for two other reasons, just as when we hear badmouth talk about other mom and dad it hurts. They know this, but often do it on purpose. …
but
But it hurts for two other reasons, just as when we hear badmouth talk about our mom and dad it hurts. They know this, but often do it on purpose. …

 

[Leela]

And your preference is based on the notion that by doing so, religious violence would be quelled?

I’m really trying to have an open mind on this theory…but I just don’t see any religious fanatic’s violent behavior changing because we would say, “She’s not a Christian 4 yr old; it’s a 4 yr old child of Christian parents.”

Really, Leela?

Yes, I do think that we would see a reduction in religious violence if we stopped teaching our children that what is most fundamentally important about them is not the universal dignity of humanity but rather that they are part of a particular sect that possesses revealed truth that other sects do not have and will be damned for. I really think that if we stopped labelling our children according to their parents’ religions, and if consciousness was generally raised about imposing in group/out group mentality on children with no understanding of such desitinctions, that such an appreciation for the personal dignity of children would result in less religiously motivated violence against them. Such violence would be more likely be viewed as an abomination rather than as collateral damage.

It is very clear at this point that the Catholics in this thread will continue to insist on labelling their children Christians, but from my perspective, it is as presumptuous and offensive to the individual dignity of children do so as it is for Muslims to insist that all children are born Muslim.

Best,
Leela

 

[fhansen]

Yes, I do think that we would see a reduction in religious violence if we stopped teaching our children that what is most fundamentally important about them is not the universal dignity of humanity but rather that they are part of a particular sect that possesses revealed truth that other sects do not have and will be damned for. I really think that if we stopped labelling our children according to their parents’ religions, and if consciousness was generally raised about imposing in group/out group mentality on children with no understanding of such desitinctions, that such an appreciation for the personal dignity of children would result in less religiously motivated violence against them. Such violence would be more likely be viewed as an abomination rather than as collateral damage.

It is very clear at this point that the Catholics in this thread will continue to insist on labelling their children Christians, but from my perspective, it is as presumptuous and offensive to the individual dignity of children do so as it is for Muslims to insist that all children are born Muslim.

Best,
Leela

I don’t know about this labeling thing. Our children are taught the Catholic faith but I don’t see them wearing it around like a badge, or anyone in our society-especially nowadays-thinking it means anything more than that the child’s been taught certain values and beliefs which they may or may not retain as adults. And “the universal dignity of humanity” is exactly what Catholicism teaches-but with the added conviction that there exists a mind/purpose/reason behind or basic to that dignity rather than its’ being a merely optional belief-dependent on personal opinion. “In group/out group mentality” is also opposed in Catholic teaching with the one caveat that evil is to be adamantly resisted. What appeals to me about Catholicism is the universality of its’ teachings.

 

[twb1621]

Yes, I do think that we would see a reduction in religious violence if we stopped teaching our children that what is most fundamentally important about them is not the universal dignity of humanity but rather that they are part of a particular sect that possesses revealed truth that other sects do not have and will be damned for. I really think that if we stopped labelling our children according to their parents’ religions, and if consciousness was generally raised about imposing in group/out group mentality on children with no understanding of such desitinctions, that such an appreciation for the personal dignity of children would result in less religiously motivated violence against them. Such violence would be more likely be viewed as an abomination rather than as collateral damage.

It is very clear at this point that the Catholics in this thread will continue to insist on labelling their children Christians, but from my perspective, it is as presumptuous and offensive to the individual dignity of children do so as it is for Muslims to insist that all children are born Muslim.

Best,
Leela

Let me try this again,

I know you said you have no interest in learning about God, (not sure why you come here in that case) but for those who believe in God and refer to the Bible, we will say at this time Old Testament, God made it clear that parents are responsible for their children and to teach their children all about God especially His love for us. Regardless of what denomination it may be, that is part of the teaching of the Old Testament. Until children are of an age to choose to accept God or not to, this is the responsibility the parents have and of course are going to pass on based on their faith. That is of course the way it was.

Now If we look at the last 50 to 60 years for example, much like you in some ways the generations from the 60’s and 70’s have pulled drastically away from God. Parents not only lost much of what they use to know and practice through the teachings of their parents, they lost the concept of teaching their children about God as well. Their priorities centered mostly on their “goals” not realizing the goals are actually set by industry through commercialism and absorbed by our own self pride. All this is evident in what we have called progress.

We have enacted laws and given our approvals for abortion, the selective elimination of the most vulnerable of human life.
We are working diligently to eliminate the words “In God We Trust” from our currency. Is it we no longer believe in Him? More likely we don’t even take the time to consider it much at all.
We are, in a growing number of our states, supporting the legalization of “same sex” marriages and some barbaric means to pursue stem cell research.
We have “drive-by” shootings and assaults performed against our youths by our youths;
We discipline children for outward signs of affection when they so much as hug a friend; We produce serial killers who can select people at random, look down the sights of a sniper rifle while hidden and end a life for amusement;
We have school massacres performed by our children gunning down our children; fathers and mothers not only killing each other but killing their own infants and children before committing suicide;
We have families destitute and living in cardboard boxes under bridges while some corporate executives receive hundreds of millions of dollars in bonus money in one quarter (not including their regular income). Is it because they are legitimately successful? No, more often than not it is because they are full of greed to a point they have fraudulently manipulated the markets and their investors.
By the way, it is our public officials who are now taking our tax dollars from many of those who contributed now living on the streets to bail out the banks and businesses who put them out on the streets.
Many institutions including commercial businesses will not allow employees to say the Words “Merry Christmas” as a greeting. But it still represents the Celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ whether some like it or not. Many of the business owners will pray for a successful sales season I’m sure. And on it goes as if the time will never come that we will have to answer for the transgressions of the society we created.
So in fact up to recently more people have fallen away from God. I say until recently because there has been a rather sudden substantial increase in converts to Catholicism including Muslims, converting atheists, Jews and fallen away Christians returning as well. Regardless of your personal beliefs, this should make things a bit safer even for you depending on where you live over time. You know, everything that has occurred over the last 2000 years has been professed in the Bible, it hasn’t been wrong yet. You also may want to consider these things also have been prophesied in revelations.

 

[Leela]

Let me try this again,

I know you said you have no interest in learning about God, (not sure why you come here in that case) but for those who believe in God and refer to the Bible, we will say at this time Old Testament, God made it clear that parents are responsible for their children…

It’s not that I have no interest in learning about God. If I believed there was a God, I should want to know about him/her, but even if I believed in God, why should I believe that you or anyone else knows anything about God? When you and another disagree about what you say about God, what basis could you possibly use to argue that you are right and the other person is wrong?

 

[twb1621]

It’s not that I have no interest in learning about God. If I believed there was a God, I should want to know about him/her, but even if I believed in God, why should I believe that you or anyone else knows anything about God? When you and another disagree about what you say about God, what basis could you possibly use to argue that you are right and the other person is wrong?

Leela, as in anything else there can only be one truth and each of us if honest and willing to learn what that truth is can learn it. The problem comes when people attempt to interpret the Bible as the sole teaching when in fact, just as in any other subject one would learn it is an intricate part of the teachers works, but not a replacement for the teacher. Again, the Bible was written by some of those who were teachers but not to replace the teachers. If I hand you a book of astrophysics while you have no teachings in any part of the field, does that make you an astrophysicist? You would need instruction to understand what was in that book, right? But over the last 500 years, we seemed to have had a major influx in self taught astrophysicists if you get my drift. That is where the debates come in. Its not hard to rationalize when you consider the bible and the canons of the Bible were organized and established by the Catholic Church for teaching the word of God. That is its origin and purpose. Recorded history attests to that. Look up what the Septugent is, the Vetus Itala, the Latin Vulgate and so on. These are the sources that became and are the Bible. All Christian and Catholic.

 

[Leela]

Leela, as in anything else there can only be one truth and each of us if honest and willing to learn what that truth is can learn it. The problem comes when people attempt to interpret the Bible as the sole teaching when in fact, just as in any other subject one would learn it is an intricate part of the teachers works, but not a replacement for the teacher. Again, the Bible was written by some of those who were teachers but not to replace the teachers. If I hand you a book of astrophysics while you have no teachings in any part of the field, does that make you an astrophysicist? You would need instruction to understand what was in that book, right? But over the last 500 years, we seemed to have had a major influx in self taught astrophysicists if you get my drift. That is where the debates come in. Its not hard to rationalize when you consider the bible and the canons of the Bible were organized and established by the Catholic Church for teaching the word of God. That is its origin and purpose. Recorded history attests to that. Look up what the Septugent is, the Vetus Itala, the Latin Vulgate and so on. These are the sources that became and are the Bible. All Christian and Catholic.

I understand that only one religion can be true and there can be only one correct interpretation of the one true religion. But how could I ever choose which religion is correct and which interpretation is true? Most people are not Christians and most Christians are not Catholics. Do you have hope of convincing them that you are right? Probably about that same chance that they have of convincing you that they are right. People that are so proud of having the absolute truth don’t seem to recognize their lack of a foundation for choosing among the various claims to possessing absolute truth. I can’t imagine any standards that one could apply in rejecting other religions that wouldn’t also require rejection of her own religion.

 

[tomarin]

even if I believed in God, why should I believe that you or anyone else knows anything about God? When you and another disagree about what you say about God, what basis could you possibly use to argue that you are right and the other person is wrong?

Could the answer be reason? I have observed that even if what you say is true (that there is no basis for arguing that one religion is right and another is wrong), that doesn’t seem to stop people from getting into religious arguments.

 

[1holycatholic]

I understand that only one religion can be true and there can be only one correct interpretation of the one true religion. But how could I ever choose which religion is correct and which interpretation is true? Most people are not Christians and most Christians are not Catholics. Do you have hope of convincing them that you are right? Probably about that same chance that they have of convincing you that they are right. People that are so proud of having the absolute truth don’t seem to recognize their lack of a foundation for choosing among the various claims to possessing absolute truth. I can’t imagine any standards that one could apply in rejecting other religions that wouldn’t also require rejection of her own religion.

That’s not true.

There are roughly 2.1 billion Christians, of which 1.131 billion are Catholic.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Is your argument, Leela, that the Catholic church does not teach that we become Christians at Baptism? If so, then I will provide documentation that this indeed is our teaching.

However, as you allude, it seems that it would be irrelevant to you, so I won’t waste my time proving that this is, indeed, what we become.

Yes, 4 yr olds are not capable of making up their minds about such things. But, as I said earlier, becoming a Christian at Baptism says *nothing * about this 4 yr old’s understanding of theology. It is a statement that this child has become a member of Christ’s family. She is now part of the Body of Christ.

Thank you. I was skimming this thread waiting for someone to realize that Baptism makes a person a part of the body of Christ and the sacrament of Baptism is in no way dependent on the mental understanding of theology. What makes a person a Christian is spiritual re-birth.

Obiously, Dawkins doesn’t understand this and so comes up with his absurd, meaningless propositions about agnostic, secular, humanist 4-year olds. That’s just another term for a precious child being raised to express the stain of original sin he has inherited.

 

[twb1621]

I understand that only one religion can be true and there can be only one correct interpretation of the one true religion. But how could I ever choose which religion is correct and which interpretation is true?

if you really wanted to know which Christian Faith is the original, the History of Christianity and the Catholic Church will verify that for you.

Most people are not Christians Way wrong… and most Christians are not Catholics.

Way wrong… 1/6 of the world population is Catholic, now 33% (including Catholic Church) of the world pop. is Christian being the larges of Faiths with Islam next at 21%. This can be verified also.

Do you have hope of convincing them that you are right?

I pray that all will find there way back but obviously that is not for me to determine who or when it happens. That it between each individual and God. I can tell you that not one prophecy made By Jesus was ever wrong and many are occurring in these days.

Probably about that same chance that they have of convincing you that they are right.

They can not convince me they are right when they do not have the support in both the Old and New Testamant to back up their position as the CC has. I serve on four forums and this is the only Catholic forum. I have learned and continue to learn but I have not come against any credible argument that supports others against the CC.

People that are so proud of having the absolute truth don’t seem to recognize their lack of a foundation for choosing among the various claims to possessing absolute truth. I can’t imagine any standards that one could apply in rejecting other religions that wouldn’t also require rejection of her own religion.

The standards fall on the Old Testamant in great depth and its relationship to the NT.

 

[Leela]

That’s not true.

There are roughly 2.1 billion Christians, of which 1.131 billion are Catholic.

Okay, if those statsitics are accurate, still only about half of Christians are Catholic. That doesn’t affect my argument.

 

[Leela]

I said, “Most people are not Christians”

Way wrong…

1/6 of the world population is Catholic, now 33% (including Catholic Church) of the world pop. is Christian being the larges of Faiths with Islam next at 21%. This can be verified also.

???

Your statistics confirm that most people in the world are not Christian. You say, only a third. But you say “way wrong” ???

I don’t get it.

 

[twb1621]

Okay, if those statsitics are accurate, still only about half of Christians are Catholic. That doesn’t affect my argument.

The CC is the greatest percentage of Christians. And when you break down the denominations in the non-Catholic faiths, the percentage is staggering. With that said, it is the origin being that of Jesus Christ as the founder and the History to verify its origin that should be of more interest. I wouldn’t get hung up on the numbers though.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, if those statsitics are accurate, still only about half of Christians are Catholic. That doesn’t affect my argument.

I’m not understanding your argument, Leela. Are you saying that since most people aren’t ________, then it can’t be true?

Or are you saying that since there’s so many religions, each claiming to be true, then that proves that none are true?