The Lord has redeemed all of us....Pope Francis

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McCall1981 said:
Totally agree that this is what he is saying, and its totally right, but a LOT of people don’t understand this. Witness all the threads and articles that say he was talking about salvation :confused:

It’s not that what he said is wrong, and you’re absolutely right that no one can plan for all contingencies and you can’t help it if people misinterprate (willfully or otherwise). But he would have to be VERY nieve to not see this mass confusion coming a mile away.
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If people on CAF are in a tizzy because of this, its because there is a large bloc of posters from Fisheaters and CathInfo who are for all purposes and intents Jansenists. See the errors of that sect which the Church condemned:
  • that there are some commands of God which just men cannot keep, no matter how hard they wish and strive;
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    that it is impossible for fallen man to resist sovereign grace;
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    that it is possible for human beings who lack free will to merit;
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    that the Semipelagians were correct to teach that prevenient grace was necessary for all interior acts, including for faith, but were incorrect to teach that fallen man is free to accept or resist prevenient grace; and
  • ** that it is Semipelagian to say that Christ died for all.**
 
Kevin12 said:
I think it’s more likely that those who already believe all the post-VII Popes are only to be paid lipservice to will always interpret his statements in the worst (from their perspective) possible light.
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Although that may be true, it is also equally true that many heterodox, spirit of VII Catholics will interpret Pope Francis’ statements in the best possible light…so much so that they will think what he states actually agrees with them on matters that are not true.
 
I think people are confused because of Huffington Post. If HuffPost didn’t do what they did, would we be having this discussion? HuffPost misrepresented the Pope and now everyone thinks he said something he actually didn’t.
 
Kevin12 said:
If people on CAF are in a tizzy because of this, its because there is a large bloc of posters from Fisheaters and CathInfo who are for all purposes and intents Jansenists. See the errors of that sect which the Church condemned:
  • that there are some commands of God which just men cannot keep, no matter how hard they wish and strive;
  • Code: 
    that it is impossible for fallen man to resist sovereign grace;
  • Code: 
    that it is possible for human beings who lack free will to merit;
  • Code: 
    that the Semipelagians were correct to teach that prevenient grace was necessary for all interior acts, including for faith, but were incorrect to teach that fallen man is free to accept or resist prevenient grace; and
  • ** that it is Semipelagian to say that Christ died for all.**
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But all the threads and such are from people that honestly think he said “all are saved”. They are legitimately confused, and I don;t blame them for being confused becasue you have to have a decent knowledge of theology and redemption vs salvation to understand. Most people simply lack this knowledge.
 
One more thing, we believe in the General Resurrection. At the end of the ages we all will be resurrected. That is redemption. We died because of Adam’s sin, and because of Christ’s own death we die with Christ and like Him we will be resurrected.

Salvation is what happens to us then. Are we for eternity in God’s company, loving Him as He has loved us? Or are we forever holding onto our sin and we suffer in God’s presence because we’d rather hold onto our sin than Him? That is salvation.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I think people are confused because of Huffington Post. If HuffPost didn’t do what they did, would we be having this discussion? HuffPost misrepresented the Pope and now everyone thinks he said something he actually didn’t.
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How did they misrepresent him? The title of their article uses the word redeemed, not saved. I’m no fan of HuffPo, but I’m not so sure they didn’t anything wrong here.
 
Lucky7 said:
How did they misrepresent him? The title of their article uses the word redeemed, not saved. I’m no fan of HuffPo, but I’m not so sure they didn’t anything wrong here.
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Because they assumed that redeemed and saved are the same thing.

At Fr. Andrew’s blog post, he linked to an article by a Catholic, and I believe the title was “Why HuffPost shouldn’t be talking about theology”, or something like that. Look it up.
 
Lucky7 said:
Like I said in another thread, he could have easily added a line/a few words to avoid the confusion that has come about from this homily. That addition would not have made it “simplistic” by any means.
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You ever consider that he wanted to address all the neo-Jansenists in the Church and in schism with the Church?

Though I understand there are plenty of people who suppose that if a priest doesn’t deliver a homily on how all those outside the Church are going to Hell because their ignorance is 99.99% of the time vincible, not to mention that most Catholics are going to Hell for not missing Mass or using contraception, and even those Catholics who go to Mass every week, vote for Republican candidates and only engage in totally unitive and procreative intercourse (and with the lights off to boot!), even they are probably going to Hell for taking communion in the hand or some other irreverent act (because if you get down to it, in their eyes, 99% of NO masses are basically all-you-can-blaspheme buffets of irreverence) — if a priest doesn’t include all these elements in any given homily, he is without doubt in inveterate, incorrigible Modernist, who literally wakes up every morning wringing his hands with unholy glee as he plots how he can further undermine the traditions of the Church and gradually convert all the faithful to atheism and Masonry.

So, those people might not realize Modernism isn’t the only problem in the Church today.
 
ConstantineTG said:
But that is the truth. The Orthodox Church says the same thing, Christ died for all, He loves all, and He has redeemed all.

As I said before, anything can have lack of clarity. People do not have the same level of understanding. What we are posting here will be interpreted differently by different people. It is just the way it is. We can’t worry about it. Pope Francis did not say anything wrong, and if people want to make something else out of it, it is their problem.

This reminds me of that condom comment from Pope Benedict.
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I’m not saying that what the Pope said was wrong. I’m saying that a lot of people think redeemed = saved.

And the condom comment? Yep, that was another example of a lack of clarity which led to much confusion about what the Church actually taught. I can’t tell you how many heterodox Catholics thought the Pope had changed Catholic teaching on the use of condoms.
 
Kevin12 said:
You ever consider that he wanted to address all the neo-Jansenists in the Church and in schism with the Church?

Though I understand there are plenty of people who suppose that if a priest doesn’t deliver a homily on how all those outside the Church are going to Hell because their ignorance is 99.99% of the time vincible, not to mention that most Catholics are going to Hell for not missing Mass or using contraception, and even those Catholics who go to Mass every week, vote for Republican candidates and only engage in totally unitive and procreative intercourse (and with the lights off to boot!), even they are probably going to Hell for taking communion in the hand or some other irreverent act (because if you get down to it, in their eyes, 99% of NO masses are basically all-you-can-blaspheme buffets of irreverence) — if a priest doesn’t include all these elements in any given homily, he is without doubt in inveterate, incorrigible Modernist, who literally wakes up every morning wringing his hands with unholy glee as he plots how he can further undermine the traditions of the Church and gradually convert all the faithful to atheism and Masonry.

So, those people might not realize Modernism isn’t the only problem in the Church today.
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Maybe I’m wrong, but you sound like you have an axe to grind. Considering no one on this thread or in any of the threads on this matter is anything like this, I’m thinking your comments are unfair.
 
JMJCatholic said:
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

I am still trying to reconcile the “No Salvation Outside the Church” as strictly interpreted in the past with recent interpretations as the one about by Pope Francis in the light of the teaching that doctrine cannot change, only develop. Would you consider the above a development of:

Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may,** no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”**

JMJ
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I think many are missing the point. Look at the above quote by Pope Eugene IV. It states that “none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”.” This means that salvation is not possible for those who are redeemed unless they are within the Catholic Church. Honestly, do you think Pope Francis’s statement even suggests that redemption only comes to fruition (salvation) to those within the Catholic Church?

I do not believe that only Catholics are saved, and I find Pope Eugene IV’s declaration to be inhuman and ungodly. However, I find it duplicitous for anyone to expect a reasoning person to believe that Church teaching hasn’t changed.

JMJ
 
Lucky7 said:
Maybe I’m wrong, but you sound like you have an axe to grind. Considering no one on this thread or in any of the threads on this matter is anything like this, I’m thinking your comments are unfair.
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I got the same impression.
 
JMJCatholic said:
So, the good news is that each one of us is redeemed. The bad news is that anyone who is not member of the Catholic Church goes to hell. Is this not misleading?

JMJ
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The Church, Christ’s mystical Body, consists of all the validly baptized. Those outside of the Catholic Church are in an imperfect communion, yet still members of Christ’s Body.

As to ‘all are redeemed’, Jesus opened the gates of heaven, but He does not carry us through them. That is our job.

Now that Francis has the world’s attention, perhaps a few more souls might listen to him. Did not Jesus use hyperbole in His exhortations?
 
JMJCatholic said:
I think many are missing the point. Look at the above quote by Pope Eugene IV. It states that “none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”.” This means that salvation is not possible for those who are redeemed unless they are within the Catholic Church. Honestly, do you think Pope Francis’s statement even suggests that redemption only comes to fruition (salvation) to those within the Catholic Church?

I do not believe that only Catholics are saved, and I find Pope Eugene IV’s declaration to be inhuman and ungodly. However, I find it duplicitous for anyone to expect a reasoning person to believe that Church teaching hasn’t changed.

JMJ
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I’m still not following you. Pope Francis is not talking about salvation, so why is any of Pope Eugene’s comments relevant?
 
And by the way, what is a “culture of encounter”?

The principle, he said, unites all humanity, beyond religions and ideologies, creating a “culture of encounter” which is at the basis of peace.

JMJ
 
Lucky7 said:
I’m still not following you. Pope Francis is not talking about salvation, so why is any of Pope Eugene’s comments relevant?
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Redemption and salvation go hand in hand, as several have described so well. It is similar to a “mental reservation” for Pope Francis to speak as he does in a spirit of joy and rejoicing that non-believers are redeemed, This is in distinct contradiction to emphasis by previous popes that redeemed non-Catholics are not saved (and some have said so in such severe and inhuman terms as to condemn to hell even a martyr in the name of Christ!)

JMJ
 
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