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Lucky7
Guest
We do so because we are all made in the likeness and image of God. That is not the same thing as being a “child of God” or “sons of God” per Catholic teaching (or at least that is what the Catechism seems to infer).
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Lucky7
Guest
And numerous blogs, articles, posts keep cropping up all over the place as we speak.
Even the condom comment didn’t get this much attention.
Not good. I wonder f the Pope knows how this homily was received.
Even the condom comment didn’t get this much attention.
Not good. I wonder f the Pope knows how this homily was received.
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clem456
Guest
The way I see it, I didn’t create myself, my parents merely sort of cooperated with God in my creation, so that makes me a child of God. We are all called into being by God our Father. Even during the time I rejected my sonship, I was still a child of God.
Luke 15 11-31 makes our lineage abundantly clear, whether we have accepted it or not,.
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Lucky7
Guest
That’s all well and good, but I am interested in knowing what Church teaching is on the matter.
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clem456
Guest
The Church does not teach that God is the Father of all?:bigyikes:
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Lucky7
Guest
Yes, in the sense that He creates all of us, but there is a difference in being a creature of God and a child of God. And the Catechism clearly states that baptism makes us children of God. If we are children of God without Baptism, why would the Catechism state that?
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clem456
Guest
So is it fair to say that you have used words that, although used truthfully, can be confusing and misinterpreted?
Should we expect the Pope to give perfect clarity in his communication when we ourselves are not capable of satisfying our own expectations?
Is it possible the Pope had already thought of these issues, and very purposely said what he did, keeping in mind the conversations that might take place about the issue? ]
Really, what skin is it off our back it the atheists begin to believe that God loves them right where they are? Why should I be upset to think that God smiles upon any good deeds they perform?
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TimothyH
Guest
Unbaptized Jews of the Old Testament are children of God.
The children of the promise to Abraham are his descendants.
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AndyP2010
Guest
Yes and it is a horrible thing to think that people all over the world are reading and discussing the words of the pope. They might start doing good. People all over the world doing good might lead to, conversion. Then who will I condemn. Oh why didn’t I follow the pope’s advice and go out and do good. I might of myself meet a atheist, do gooder, and evangelized and won reward in heaven when he came home to the church.
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Theresaj
Guest
The Pope is calling us to conversation, to evangelicalism, to brotherhood with each other. Do we not pray for those who do not know Christ during Mass? For those who have turned away from him? Why do we do that if we are not called to by our own actions and works, with our own lives as examples, treat the unbeliever who does good as a soul worthy of salvation? Didn’t Christ die for us all? Aren’t we asked to be Christians on more than Sunday? Isn’t that why Faith without works is dead?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
All of humankind are children of God, but only those who become baptized become the firstborn in the Kingdom through the Firstborn of God, Jesus Christ.
po18guy
Well-known member
luke
As Mary proclaimed in her magnificat (Luke 1:46-55). Yet interestingly, she spoke of “Abraham and his seed forever” (1:55), which indicates both Isaac as well as Ishmael. For this reason is Mary important to the conversion of the Muslims?
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McCall1981
Guest
God loves atheists right where they are, they are redeemed as Pope Francis said. Now misinformation is saying, the Pope said atheists are saved (even though he did not say this). That is a problem becasue a) it’s not true, and b) it means an atheist has no reason to convert and we have no reason to evangelize.
Yes, it is a very horrible thing. People all over the world now think the Pope said atheists are saved. People all over the world are reading and discussing a misunderstanding, or flat out manipulation, of what Pope Francis said. People all over the world have now come to believe a major theological point about Catholicism that isn’t true. People all over the world now think Pope Francis is changing Church teaching on salvation. All of this is truely horrible and sad.
As Lucky7 pointed out, yes I am worrying about other people here, not just my own salvation. Why? Because I care about other people and their salvation, not just my own. I understand the difference between redemption and salvation, many people out there in the world do not. Many people out there in the world now have a false understanding of Church teaching on salvation; that is very sad. Many people out there now have a false understanding of what the Pope said; that is sad.
Many people’s faith, and their knowledge of God and the Church has been harmed through misunderstanding and manipulation; that is VERY sad.
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TimothyH
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Lucky7
Guest
Thank you. I’ll just ditto that.
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Lucky7
Guest
So instead of answering my question, you have provided me with other questions. The question I asked was if baptism is not required to be called a child of God then why does the Catechism CLEARLY state this:
1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
And also this:
*1243 The white garment symbolizes that the person baptized has "put on Christ,"42 has risen with Christ. The candle, lit from the Easter candle, signifies that Christ has enlightened the neophyte. In him the baptized are "the light of the world."43
**The newly baptized is now, in the only Son, a child of God entitled to say the prayer of the children of God: “Our Father.” ***
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Tigg
Guest
Sorry to be so nit picky, but it would be nice if they first even believed in God!
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McCall1981
Guest
The conversations taking place now are over an understanding that is false. That does not lead people to the Truth, to the Church, or to Christ. It leads them to have false understanding of Church teaching. It holds them back from God.
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agnes_therese
Guest
Fr. Z has a very good explanation here:
wdtprs.com/blog/2013/05/pope-francis-on-the-possibility-of-salvation-for-atheists/
Most important part (IMHO): “Moreover, Francis was clear that whatever graces are offered to atheists (such that they may be saved) are from Christ. He was clear that salvation is only through Christ’s Sacrifice. In other words, he is not suggesting – and I think some are taking it this way – that you can be saved, get to heaven, without Christ.”
wdtprs.com/blog/2013/05/pope-francis-on-the-possibility-of-salvation-for-atheists/
Most important part (IMHO): “Moreover, Francis was clear that whatever graces are offered to atheists (such that they may be saved) are from Christ. He was clear that salvation is only through Christ’s Sacrifice. In other words, he is not suggesting – and I think some are taking it this way – that you can be saved, get to heaven, without Christ.”
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JMJCatholic
Guest
Lucky7, I appreciate your honesty and obvious efforts to discern the truth, as like you, I am seeking the same and am perplexed by contradictions from authoritative sources within the Catholic Church. CLEARLY, there has been a change of teaching on the doctrine of No Salvation Outside the Church. I was watching an EWTN program, The World Over, where the statement of Pope Francis regarding the redemption of all was a news item. The Vatican attempted to clarify what the Pope meant to convey, and interestingly, there was no distinction made, as in this thread, between redemption and salvation. Instead, the Vatican spokesman explains as follows:
*The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, said that people who aware of the Catholic church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her.”
At the same time, Rosica writes, “every man or woman, whatever their situation, can be saved. Even non-Christians can respond to this saving action of the Spirit. No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin.”
Rosica also said that Francis had “no intention of provoking a theological debate on the nature of salvation,” during his homily on Wednesday.
Although the pope’s comments about salvation surprised some, bishops and experts in Catholicism say Francis was expressing a core tenet of the faith.*
Now let us be REASONABLE. Is the above not a dramatic departure from the previous teaching of the Church? Contrast this with previous teaching, and honestly, can you say these two popes are saying the same thing??
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
The Church has redefined, not developed, it’s doctrine and teaching. The current teaching that salvation is within possibility for non-Catholics makes perfect sense, and thank God, we are no longer expected to assent to the teachings of past popes who harshly condemned all non-Catholics, NO EXCEPTIONS as is made clear by Pope Eugene IV and many others. The problem I have been trying to resolve, as a Roman Catholic, is one of reconciling the Doctrine of Infallibility with the obvious change in doctrine. Yes, there is mystery in our faith, and there are tenets that we accept which are beyond our understanding, such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Eucharist. But there is a difference between mystery and irrationality. Our religion is a rational one, and no rational person can hold two opposing “truths”.
JMJ
*The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, said that people who aware of the Catholic church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her.”
At the same time, Rosica writes, “every man or woman, whatever their situation, can be saved. Even non-Christians can respond to this saving action of the Spirit. No person is excluded from salvation simply because of so-called original sin.”
Rosica also said that Francis had “no intention of provoking a theological debate on the nature of salvation,” during his homily on Wednesday.
Although the pope’s comments about salvation surprised some, bishops and experts in Catholicism say Francis was expressing a core tenet of the faith.*
Now let us be REASONABLE. Is the above not a dramatic departure from the previous teaching of the Church? Contrast this with previous teaching, and honestly, can you say these two popes are saying the same thing??
Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino (1441): “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”
The Church has redefined, not developed, it’s doctrine and teaching. The current teaching that salvation is within possibility for non-Catholics makes perfect sense, and thank God, we are no longer expected to assent to the teachings of past popes who harshly condemned all non-Catholics, NO EXCEPTIONS as is made clear by Pope Eugene IV and many others. The problem I have been trying to resolve, as a Roman Catholic, is one of reconciling the Doctrine of Infallibility with the obvious change in doctrine. Yes, there is mystery in our faith, and there are tenets that we accept which are beyond our understanding, such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Eucharist. But there is a difference between mystery and irrationality. Our religion is a rational one, and no rational person can hold two opposing “truths”.
JMJ
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