The Magisterium equal to Scripture in authority???

[Mannyfit75]

Peregrino:

What did the prophets who had no bible or “magesterium” (whatever that means…) utilize for their authority?

Jesus spoke that the authority is given to him. He also said that if there is a disagreement amongst you, take it to the Church.

17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

The Magisterium is the entire Catholic Church, the bishops in union with the Pope. When the Magisterium speaks in moral and faith issues it the Church who has the final say. When the Church speaks in Jesus Name, he is there in their midst.

Like other Catholics here, the full context of the Bible (both OT and NT) came from the Church itself. The Church declare it in the Council of Rome, Council of Hippo, Council of Carthage, Council of Florence, and finally in the Council of Trent which closed the Scripture Canon.

 

[Nella]

This is an utter fiction from start to finish.

That is not fiction. It’s the truth. You are just merely too snow blind from the authority argument to see it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

That is not fiction. It’s the truth. You are just merely too snow blind from the authority argument to see it.

Actually, it is more of a misrepresentation of the Catholic Church and Church history.

As Pax states;

The church, under the watchful eye of Emperor Constantine (interested in consensus, not division) “approved” the texts of the bible, picking and choosing what the bishops believed to be the truth. The bible is an interesting mix of agreement and contradiction with Roman Catholic teachings. Of course they will disagree about the contradition part; after nearly 2000 years in power, the church has developed at least a semi-plausible explanation for each of its doctrines and can iron out those rough spots with enough apologetic elbow grease…

The Emperor Constantine was indeed concern about the possible disunity in the issue of Arianism heresy. The issue needed to be resolved, and so the Council of Constantinople settle the issue and defined the doctrine of the Trinity. Constantine himself was no theologian. He was a pagan. He did in fact converted in the last moments of his life.

The bishops of the Council were the main voice of defining doctrinal issues not the Emperor. The Church existed before Constantine. It was there when Apostles live, and they in turn handed their authority to their successors.

 

[Nella]

Jesus spoke that the authority is given to him. He also said that if there is a disagreement amongst you, take it to the Church.

The Magisterium is the entire Catholic Church, the bishops in union with the Pope. When the Magisterium speaks in moral and faith issues it the Church who has the final say. When the Church speaks in Jesus Name, he is there in their midst.

Like other Catholics here, the full context of the Bible (both OT and NT) came from the Church itself. The Church declare it in the Council of Rome, Council of Hippo, Council of Carthage, Council of Florence, and finally in the Council of Trent which closed the Scripture Canon.

That all means nothing if it isn’t truth.

 

[Mannyfit75]

That all means nothing if it isn’t truth.

Distorting Church history is more of a lie than the truth. What Pax wrote lacks any historical truths.

If you claim that what Pax is truth when what Paul wrote that the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth is the Church is a big lie.

A Truth Church of Christ would not deceived any soul. The Truth of Church of Jesus Christ would be concern with the salvation of souls in Christ, and ask that we all be steadfast in what we do.

The Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura have mislead souls by allowing gay bishops ordained, gay marriages, abortions, use of contraception (grave sin). Though I do acknowledge that some reject gay marriages, and abortions, but I have know some baptist churches allow it.

As I recall, No Protestant Churches accepted contraception until the 1930s. Only the CC remain vigilant when she teaches moral teachings.

 

[Nella]

Distorting Church history is more of a lie than the truth. What Pax wrote lacks any historical truths.

If you claim that what Pax is truth when what Paul wrote that the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth is the Church is a big lie.

A Truth Church of Christ would not deceived any soul. The Truth of Church of Jesus Christ would be concern with the salvation of souls in Christ, and ask that we all be steadfast in what we do.

The Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura have mislead souls by allowing gay bishops ordained, gay marriages, abortions, use of contraception (grave sin). Though I do acknowledge that some reject gay marriages, and abortions, but I have know some baptist churches allow it.

As I recall, No Protestant Churches accepted contraception until the 1930s. Only the CC remain vigilant when she teaches moral teachings.

You show your ignorance of other faiths just as you accuse many of being ignorant of yours. We do not subscribe to sola scriptura. You keep saying we do because you don’t know what you are talking about. You think all Protestants are the same. That was the same baloney i was fed the decades i was Catholic. It’s not true. As far as morals, you need look no further than the many lives your clergy has wrecked by what it has done to children. How sickening and then covering it up for decades. They will have plenty to answer for from the one that counts. The ones that don’t count obviously didn’t care.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You show your ignorance of other faiths just as you accuse many of being ignorant of yours. We do not subscribe to sola scriptura. You keep saying we do because you don’t know what you are talking about. You think all Protestants are the same. That was the same baloney i was fed the decades i was Catholic. It’s not true. As far as morals, you need look no further than the many lives your clergy has wrecked by what it has done to children. How sickening and then covering it up for decades. They will have plenty to answer for from the one that counts. The ones that don’t count obviously didn’t care.

You can also ask Protestant ministers who are also guilty of immorality. The child molestations is not limited to the Catholic Church. It’s more common in public schools than in the Catholic Church. Second, the CC does condemns these acts and teaches that anyone who leads children to sin will have to pay for their actions either in this life or the next.

Protestants are different. Their doctrines differ from one another. Their teaches on moral issues and doctrinal issues have no unity. Rather it is divided due their doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

You are an Ex-Catholic who lack proper Catechesis in faith. I find your testimony unreliable.

I have read accounts of Protestant ministers leaving their parent Church and form their own Churches because of doctrinal issues.

I’m not ignorant. I think Protestants are more ignorant because they don’t know history, Church history. If they truly love Jesus Christ, they ought to seek the Truth which is only founded in the Catholic Church.

 

[Nella]

You can also ask Protestant ministers who are also guilty of immorality. The child molestations is not limited to the Catholic Church. It’s more common in public schools than in the Catholic Church. Second, the CC does condemns these acts and teaches that anyone who leads children to sin will have to pay for their actions either in this life or the next.

Protestants are different. Their doctrines differ from one another. Their teaches on moral issues and doctrinal issues have no unity. Rather it is divided due their doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

You are an Ex-Catholic who lack proper Catechesis in faith. I find your testimony unreliable.

I have read accounts of Protestant ministers leaving their parent Church and form their own Churches because of doctrinal issues.

I’m not ignorant. I think Protestants are more ignorant because they don’t know history, Church history. If they truly love Jesus Christ, they ought to seek the Truth which is only founded in the Catholic Church.

Your ignorance is rampant. Again you said that Protestants are sola scriptura. I’m Protestant and am NOT sola scriptura. You refuse to acknowledge that because you don’t know how. Been right where you are now a few years ago. Secondly, i would expect sexual abuse coming from a secular school or public place, but sexual abuse in God’s supposed one and only church??? come on man. You are totally in denial and pro child molesting priests if you defend this by dismissing it as men making human mistakes. Baloney.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Your ignorance is rampant. Again you said that Protestants are sola scriptura. I’m Protestant and am NOT sola scriptura. You refuse to acknowledge that because you don’t know how. Been right where you are now a few years ago. Secondly, i would expect sexual abuse coming from a secular school or public place, but sexual abuse in God’s supposed one and only church??? come on man. You are totally in denial and pro child molesting priests if you defend this by dismissing it as men making human mistakes. Baloney.

Am? I am not. I did say child molestation is not LIMITED to the Catholic Church. It’s common in PUBLIC SCHOOLS. I’m not denying that there is molesting priests. But you cannot put all priest in the same catagory. As a man discerning priesthood.

I know that some one diocese have move priest to another diocese and attempt to cover it up. How did the Pope react to this? He condemned it! Pope John Paul II was severely sadden by the sins of these priests. What was done about it? Well, the Church in Rome responded to review its policy on ordination. What it concluded that the potential priests will be mentally evaluated and has imposed a ban on gay priests.

I also like to add that those individual who sue diocese for child molestation for millions is no better than the molester themselves. Some diocese have gone bankrupt and the diocese had to close churches and schools. Are these individuals have the moral right to sue to have monetary gains?

Protestants in general believe that the Bible Alone is the SOLE RULE of authority concerning moral and faith, and that an individual can interpret the Bible by himself. If you believe this, then you are Sola Scripturist.

I have to confess that since I posted my reply. You decided to attack instead of trying to understand. I don’t think you understand Catholic doctrine concerning the Magisterial Authority.

 

[jabelltulsa]

Nella -
It is easy to say we don’t know the protestant faith, because there isn’t just one. There IS one Catholic faith, which gets picked apart from all sides. Who knows what YOUR faith is. You HAVE to explain it to us, since it is not in union (sharing the same marks) with all other protestant faiths. How are we to know what flavor of protestant you are. You can say we don’t understand it all day long, because no one knows except you.

Your profile says N/A on religion. How are we to know?

The Catholics believe in Jesus (and the other two persons of the Holy Trinity - God and the Holy Spirit), His virgin mother, Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, the Sacraments, the succession of the apostles, etc. Protestants vary on so many things.

What do you believe? Give us some definition of what God left you.

In regards to this thread, do you believe that Scripture alone is the authority, or the Church? and … Why? Are they on the same level? If not, how and why?

 

[Nella]

Am? I am not. I did say child molestation is not LIMITED to the Catholic Church. It’s common in PUBLIC SCHOOLS. I’m not denying that there is molesting priests. But you cannot put all priest in the same catagory. As a man discerning priesthood.

I know that some one diocese have move priest to another diocese and attempt to cover it up. How did the Pope react to this? He condemned it! Pope John Paul II was severely sadden by the sins of these priests. What was done about it? Well, the Church in Rome responded to review its policy on ordination. What it concluded that the potential priests will be mentally evaluated and has imposed a ban on gay priests.

I also like to add that those individual who sue diocese for child molestation for millions is no better than the molester themselves. Some diocese have gone bankrupt and the diocese had to close churches and schools. Are these individuals have the moral right to sue to have monetary gains?

Protestants in general believe that the Bible Alone is the SOLE RULE of authority concerning moral and faith, and that an individual can interpret the Bible by himself. If you believe this, then you are Sola Scripturist.

I have to confess that since I posted my reply. You decided to attack instead of trying to understand. I don’t think you understand Catholic doctrine concerning the Magisterial Authority.

This is becoming laughable. I know what the Magisterium is. Don’t go into a great detail explaining to me what i already know ok. I know what it is, I do not agree with it. Do you not get that? And again, I do NOT believe in scripture alone! What is the hang up on this? And where do you get off saying that these folks have no rights to monetary litigation for the horrific things done to them?? There isn’t enough money to make up for what they lost. It is horrendous. Those diocese and schools deserve to go bankrupt. It is their own fault!

 

[Mannyfit75]

Those diocese and schools deserve to go bankrupt. It is their own fault!

Answer this question then? Must the innocent suffer with the guilty? Because you apparently have no idea that despite the sex scandal, there are still lay Catholics (men and women) who do go to Church and go to Mass, and there Catholics who go to Church to have their children baptize, have their first confirmation, first communion? So you believe depriving a Catholic community out of its seek for spiritual is justified to run the Church out of money?

Do you think God would deny men and women to worship him? Base on your answers, you apparently don’t care what devout Catholics must do to increase their spiritual growth.

Where is the Christian charity in that?

 

[Nella]

Answer this question then? Must the innocent suffer with the guilty? Because you apparently have no idea that despite the sex scandal, there are still lay Catholics (men and women) who do go to Church and go to Mass, and there Catholics who go to Church to have their children baptize, have their first confirmation, first communion? So you believe depriving a Catholic community out of its seek for spiritual is justified to run the Church out of money?

Do you think God would deny men and women to worship him? Base on your answers, you apparently don’t care what devout Catholics must do to increase their spiritual growth.

Where is the Christian charity in that?

You totally remove yourself from the resposibility of this issue. Sure good folks are gonna have to go elsewhere to church andschool but who’s fault is it?? You cannot expect to commit these horrific acts and not have to answer for them. This is what you are suggesting. Not very Christianlike to ask those poor kids to just take it on the chin for the Catholic church now is it??

 

[Mannyfit75]

You totally remove yourself from the resposibility of this issue. Sure good folks are gonna have to go elsewhere to church andschool but who’s fault is it?? You cannot expect to commit these horrific acts and not have to answer for them. This is what you are suggesting. Not very Christianlike to ask those poor kids to just take it on the chin for the Catholic church now is it??

I’m not suggesting that. I already told you what Rome has done to prevent these acts from happing again. Apparently you did not read my post carefully.

There are priests who have committed these acts and are facing their dues. I’m not the one in denial here. I also like to add that you are derailing this topic by forcing me to respond to your Anti-Catholic remarks.

Second, I also said that child molestion is a SOCIETY ISSUE.

A woman in Detroit is serving 5-15 yrs for molesting a 14 yrs old boy.

Second, many of the sex offender are School educators. In U.S. schools, educators who offend range in age from “21 to 75 years old, with an average age of 28” with teachers, coaches, substitute teachers, bus drivers and teacher’s aids (in that order) totaling 69% of the offenders.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_molestation

Third, I like to make it clear I am not ignoring the issue.

Lastly, we need to get back on topic.

 

[Peregrino]

Distorting Church history is more of a lie than the truth. What Pax wrote lacks any historical truths.

To clear the air, I wrote the statement you are referring to, not Pax. You qouted me and attributed it to Pax. I don’t believe that Pax would make the statement that I did.

History is a matter of perspective. Of course you will say that I am “distorting” history if I disagree with your interpretation.

Constantine himself was no theologian. He was a pagan. He did in fact converted in the last moments of his life.

The bishops of the Council were the main voice of defining doctrinal issues not the Emperor.

We could argue all day about Constantine’s influence over the Council and I don’t think either of us will change our minds. It would be just as easy for me to say that you are “distorting” the truth. I however won’t make this claim simply because we have a difference of opinion. History is open to interpretation; it is only those in power who claim the “authority” to demand a certain interpretation.

 

[nonsumd]

If Catholics proclaim that EVERYTHING about the Roman Catholic church is Biblical, then why do they need anything at all that has the same authority in their church as the Holy Scriptures do??

Hello Nella,

Why does there need to be an authority equal to the Scriptures within Christ’s true church?

Because of the nature of the Scriptures themselves. The Scriptures are susceptible to different interpretations, indeed wildly conflicting interpretations. How are we then to know which interpretation of the many possible ones is the correct one? Or, as is more usually the case (for there is latitude in interpreting many passages), which interpretations cannot be correct?

There must be a divinely ordained teaching authority continuing from generation to generation. And we know from Scripture that Jesus ordained such a teaching authority, a “magisterium” consisting of His Apostles, the Apostles from whom Catholic, Orthodox, and other Eastern Churches’ bishops derive their authority. We see Him founding the Church.

In the Gospels, what we do not see is Jesus declaring the unique authority of books that did not even exist yet. Neither do we see Paul or any of the other Epistle writers doing so (when any speak of the authority of Scriptures, they are referring to the Jewish Scriptures – and a teaching authority was necessary to decide on how to interpret the Jewish scriptures in the light of the Messiah that had actually come).

As has often been pointed out, the Scriptures do not grant to themselves what Protestants claim for it. In fact, Scripture only has authority because of the prior authority of the Church in discerning whether a given book is inspired or not.

Ultimately, in Christianity the Word of God is a Person and not a book, and to make Himself known to humakind that Person founded a Church and did not give authority to books independent of the authority of that Church.

Nella, I have read you a number of times declaring that you do not believe in Sola Scriptura – how do you view the issue of authoritative teaching?

 

[nonsumd]

Your ignorance is rampant. Again you said that Protestants are sola scriptura. I’m Protestant and am NOT sola scriptura. You refuse to acknowledge that because you don’t know how. Been right where you are now a few years ago. Secondly, i would expect sexual abuse coming from a secular school or public place, but sexual abuse in God’s supposed one and only church??? come on man. You are totally in denial and pro child molesting priests if you defend this by dismissing it as men making human mistakes. Baloney.

Hello Nella,

I much prefer salami myself.

What is the point of there being a designation “Protestant,” if Protestants don’t even have a fundamental idea like “Sola Scriptura” in common? Does that not mean that all Protestants have in common is rejection of the Catholic Church? Would not such a “negative identity” (what we are is what we are not) really be an identity or a community?

Of course, sexual abuse committed by any of God’s ministers (whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant) gives far greater scandal to a Christian than sexual abuse committed by laypeople.

Are you saying, though, that the mere fact of being a minister of God makes one super-human, somehow exempt from being tempted to sin? And that if a minister of a church shows human failings that automatically delegitimizes the institution he belongs to? Are you saying that Judas’ betrayal invalidates the authority of Jesus?

Can you not imagine that the devil focuses his malevolent power precisely where individuals are closest to God? Is not pride, the root of all sin, the greatest danger among those who give their whole lives to God?

I would agree that we cannot reduce priestly sex abuse to the failings of individual humans (the abusers) alone. There was an institutional failing – there were those in authority who prized the church’s earthly image, thinking that its authority, its ability to do God’s work in the world would be fatally undermined by this sort of public scandal. They forgot that the Church’s authority and its power to act effectively in the world come from Christ. They forgot this as much as do those who take these scandals as proof of the Church’s illegitimacy.

 

[holy_wood]

Nella, quick question do you believe in Apostolic succession?
Why? Why not?

 

[Pax]

We really don’t need to argue all day about Constantine and the canon of scripture. According to Nella and Peregrino, Constantine kept a watchful eye on the Catholic Bishops and one would therefore think that he somehow influenced or caused the establishment of the canon of Scripture. This is an absurdity beyone description.

We can easily end this discussion by simply looking at the historical dates involved.

The reign of Constantine was from (306-337)

The following were the dates for the Councils that set the canon of scripture which was confirmed at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

Council of Rome and the Decree of Pope Damasus (382 AD)

Council of Hippo (393 AD)

Council of Carthage (397 AD)

Constantine died in 337 AD. Perhaps he was watching from heaven as the Church deliberated and decided what would be the Canon of Scripture, but he had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Yours in Christ Jesus Crucified,

Pax

 

[Grateful4mercy]

You totally remove yourself from the resposibility of this issue. Sure good folks are gonna have to go elsewhere to church andschool but who’s fault is it?? You cannot expect to commit these horrific acts and not have to answer for them. This is what you are suggesting. Not very Christianlike to ask those poor kids to just take it on the chin for the Catholic church now is it??

Nella,

You have some serious anger issues you should probably look into before you run around passing judgment upon these nice people on this forum. You are NOT acting in a charitable, Christian like manner.

Try to keep the blame where it belongs, I’m sure that there are few people in the church that had any idea this was going on, so we can hardly share in the blame.

On the other hand, you seem to claim you were a member of the church when these atrocities happened. If that is true then no matter where you hang your hat now you still have an equal share of guilt to account for. Dish out your accusations with care.