The Mark of the Beast

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When did you hear christ call his church, universal???
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. (Mat 16:18)

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. (John 17:20-21)

Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mat 28:18-20)
 
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. (Mat 16:18)

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. (John 17:20-21)

Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mat 28:18-20)
I am Catholic and will grant that I do not see Jesus calling His church universal. It wasn’t until after His ascension that Peter was given a vision that let him know that the Gentiles are included in the new covenant.

Personally … this is how Jesus fulfilled the prophecy that would unite the 12 tribes of Israel. Ten tribes had been ‘lost’, scattered to the North and mixed with the Gentiles for generations. The only way to bring those ‘lost’ tribes, now mixed in blood with the Gentiles, back into covenant was to make the covenant universal.

michel
 
I am Catholic and will grant that I do not see Jesus calling His church universal. It wasn’t until after His ascension that Peter was given a vision that let him know that the Gentiles are included in the new covenant.

Personally … this is how Jesus fulfilled the prophecy that would unite the 12 tribes of Israel. Ten tribes had been ‘lost’, scattered to the North and mixed with the Gentiles for generations. The only way to bring those ‘lost’ tribes, now mixed in blood with the Gentiles, back into covenant was to make the covenant universal.

michel
Something to add to this idea that the very early church is called ‘Catholic’.

Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans (A.D. 110)
See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out [through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as where Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.

What is really interesting is that this is from Ignatius of Antioch. Ignatius was a student of the Apostles John, so he might be somebody we should listen to. The interesting part is that Antioch is also were we first see the term ‘Christian’ being used (Acts 11:26). It seems by A.D. 110 ‘Catholic’ and ‘Christan’ were interchangeable.

It has to be interesting to non-Catholics in this thread that a student of the Apostle John is here talking about bishops, presbyters (priests), and deacons. Even the Eucharist is confirmed here.

I’m curious as to what year non-Catholics think Catholicism was invented.

michel
 
How does the annulling of the covenant and the breaking of the staffs “Grace and Union” (Zech 11:10-14) fit into this?

Does the New Covenant supercede the Old (Mosaic) Covenant?
**Let us start with verse 14. That’s the staff that bonded Israel with Judah. That brotherhood was broken with the secession of the Ten Tribes. God had broken that staff when He decided to remove Israel from existence by using it as a redeemer for the sins of Judah.

Now, back to verse 10, that’s a reference to the Noahite Covenant, which was the one made with all Mankind. All the peoples of the world. The pledge to guarantee that Covenant was Israel soon to rise. The promise had been that God would never allow another catastrophe to hit Mankind again like the Flood. (Gen. 8:21) The condition was that Israel would remain in existence, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37. That is, if Israel would ever die out, the natural laws would cease to function properly. I am sure you know what would happen: Universal castastrophe and end of Mankind.

Now, how to understand that the staff “Favor” would be snapped assunder and the Noahite Covenant broken? With God’s decision to remove Israel from existence. But because God had promised David that He would spare his Tribe of Judah to remain in Jerusalem forever, according to I Kings 11:36, the world was allowed to continue because Judah as Immanuel would keep God with the world. (Isa. 8:8)

The allusion to the 30 pieces of silver was only to show how worthless was to save Judah
by sacrificing Israel the firstborn son of God, according to Exodus 4:22,23. **
 
I am Catholic and will grant that I do not see Jesus calling His church universal. It wasn’t until after His ascension that Peter was given a vision that let him know that the Gentiles are included in the new covenant.

Personally … this is how Jesus fulfilled the prophecy that would unite the 12 tribes of Israel. Ten tribes had been ‘lost’, scattered to the North and mixed with the Gentiles for generations. The only way to bring those ‘lost’ tribes, now mixed in blood with the Gentiles, back into covenant was to make the covenant universal.

michel
But He does say the church is universal in a number of incidents without using those exact words. There is a big difference between Jesus not saying it and the disciples not understand him. Christ said “make disciples of all nations” to fulfill God’s covenant oath to Abraham that “all the nations” would be blessed.

**and in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing–all this because you obeyed my command.’’ (Gen 22:18)

Realize then that it is those who have faith who are children of Abraham. Scripture, which saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, “Through you shall all the nations be blessed.” (Gal 3:7-8)**
 
But He does say the church is universal in a number of incidents without using those exact words. There is a big difference between Jesus not saying it and the disciples not understand him. Christ said “make disciples of all nations” to fulfill God’s covenant oath to Abraham that “all the nations” would be blessed.

**and in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing–all this because you obeyed my command.’’ (Gen 22:18)

Realize then that it is those who have faith who are children of Abraham. Scripture, which saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, foretold the good news to Abraham, saying, “Through you shall all the nations be blessed.” (Gal 3:7-8)**
I definitely agree with this line of thinking.
Cheers!

michel
 
**Let us start with verse 14. That’s the staff that bonded Israel with Judah. That brotherhood was broken with the secession of the Ten Tribes. God had broken that staff when He decided to remove Israel from existence by using it as a redeemer for the sins of Judah.

Now, back to verse 10, that’s a reference to the Noahite Covenant, which was the one made with all Mankind. All the peoples of the world. The pledge to guarantee that Covenant was Israel soon to rise. The promise had been that God would never allow another catastrophe to hit Mankind again like the Flood. (Gen. 8:21) The condition was that Israel would remain in existence, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37. That is, if Israel would ever die out, the natural laws would cease to function properly. I am sure you know what would happen: Universal castastrophe and end of Mankind.

Now, how to understand that the staff “Favor” would be snapped assunder and the Noahite Covenant broken? With God’s decision to remove Israel from existence. But because God had promised David that He would spare his Tribe of Judah to remain in Jerusalem forever, according to I Kings 11:36, the world was allowed to continue because Judah as Immanuel would keep God with the world. (Isa. 8:8)

The allusion to the 30 pieces of silver was only to show how worthless was to save Judah
by sacrificing Israel the firstborn son of God, according to Exodus 4:22,23. **
It’s so sad to see a Jewish person fighting against the truth in real life.
I know there are many that do, but to see it for myself, is very sad.
Your Messiah has already come and died and is risen again. Your heart is hardened, it is so sad. 😦
 
That’s the staff that bonded Israel with Judah. That brotherhood was broken with the secession of the Ten Tribes. God had broken that staff when He decided to remove Israel from existence by using it as a redeemer for the sins of Judah.

Do you believe the Messiah will reunite the 12 tribes of Israel?

michel
 
Now, how to understand that the staff “Favor” would be snapped assunder and the Noahite Covenant broken? With God’s decision to remove Israel from existence. But because God had promised David that He would spare his Tribe of Judah to remain in Jerusalem forever, according to I Kings 11:36, the world was allowed to continue because Judah as Immanuel would keep God with the world. (Isa. 8:8)
I can’t even begin to understand what you are saying. This is so foreign a concept I don’t even know how to respond. I don’t remember there being anything conditional about the covenant with Noah. The covenant at Sinai was very conditional though, and the second law was to deal with Israel’s fallen condition.

The Old Covenant being broken is the end the second law in (Ex 33-40), all of the Book of Leviticus and the first ten chapters of Numbers. The book of Malachi (2:3, 8: 3:1, 5, 16-17; 4:1) confirms this. New Covenant is the writing of the moral law on the heart and there is no mention of the covenant with Noah.

The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the LORD. All, from least to greatest, shall know me, says the LORD, for I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sin no more. (Jer 31:31-34)
 
From a Christian perspective, the breaking of the staves symbolized the breaking of any tie of unity between the believing and unbelieving remnant of God’s people. The Old Covenant was annulled and a New Covenant was established. The New Covenant would be primarily spritual rather than physical and God would recognize those who obeyed his commandments and no longer concern Himself with holy bloodlines. This doesn’t mean Jews were demoted from being God’s first born chosen people. Instead, it means that believing Gentiles are adopted and inheritence depends on faithfulness and obedience to God.
 
As I understand it, all Covenants are part of one ‘Great’ Covenant;excuse the terminology; it’s my own termand all were necessary and all are part of God’s eternal plan for salvation.

To explain, the Christian belief is Christ was the reality of the Old Covenant. He said he came to fulfill the law which is did as the reality of the Passover Lamb, the once and for all sacrifice. He is the reality of the Priesthood. Paul said the Law of Moses was a shadow of the things to come. Therefore, there is a unity between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

The Jewish nation did preserve the Law of God and keep it alive, they preserved Holy writings and passed on knowledge of the one true God for generations. What would the New Covenant mean to Christians had it not been for that? There were Jews who believed in Jesus and passed on the Christian faith. They were the first to believe in Jesus. I feel Christians owe a lot to faithful Jews and I believe this is what Paul is referring to in Hebrews 11.
 
As I understand it, all Covenants are part of one ‘Great’ Covenant;excuse the terminology; it’s my own termand all were necessary and all are part of God’s eternal plan for salvation.

God’s eternal plan for salvation is dual: The first is for personal salvation through obedience to the Law. (Psalm 119:93) And the second is universal salvation, pledged by the life of Israel. (Jer. 31:35-37)

To explain, the Christian belief is Christ was the reality of the Old Covenant. He said he came to fulfill the law which is did as the reality of the Passover Lamb, the once and for all sacrifice.

He came to fulfill for himself and to warn us all to do same forever. (Mat. 5:19) It means nothing indeed was abolished.

He is the reality of the Priesthood. Paul said the Law of Moses was a shadow of the things to come. Therefore, there is a unity between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

Paul contradicted Jesus himself. To contradict is to go against, which means “anti.” If Jesus was Christ, you know what Paul was.

The Jewish nation did preserve the Law of God and keep it alive, they preserved Holy writings and passed on knowledge of the one true God for generations. What would the New Covenant mean to Christians had it not been for that?

The New Covenant is with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one. Nothing to do with Christians. The New Covenant of the NT is something between Paul and Christians.

There were Jews who believed in Jesus and passed on the Christian faith. They were the first to believe in Jesus. I feel Christians owe a lot to faithful Jews and I believe this is what Paul is referring to in Hebrews 11.

There are 2.5 million Jews who are perishing for lack of knowledge. (Hosea 4:6)
 
Hey Gang,
This might be a little out there but I had a pentacostal tell me the mark of the beast will be like a bar code on a chip implanted in peoples hands or fore heads. Not unlike the scans we have now on debit and credit cards so that no one can literally buy anything without having their hand or fore hand scanned…
food for thought…
 
From a Christian perspective, the breaking of the staves symbolized the breaking of any tie of unity between the believing and unbelieving remnant of God’s people. The Old Covenant was annulled and a New Covenant was established. The New Covenant would be primarily spritual rather than physical and God would recognize those who obeyed his commandments and no longer concern Himself with holy bloodlines. This doesn’t mean Jews were demoted from being God’s first born chosen people. Instead, it means that believing Gentiles are adopted and inheritence depends on faithfulness and obedience to God.
When you say that, “The Old Covenant was annulled and a New Covenant was established,” you are only promoting the policy of “Replacement Theology” of Paul in Galatians 4:21-31. And mind you that Replacement Theology has been classified as a kind of Antisemitism.
 
I can’t even begin to understand what you are saying. This is so foreign a concept I don’t even know how to respond. I don’t remember there being anything conditional about the covenant with Noah. The covenant at Sinai was very conditional though, and the second law was to deal with Israel’s fallen condition.

**I was afraid you would not understand. One needs to be familiar with the concept of Messiah ben Joseph versus Messiah ben David and the prophecy of Shiloh. I am going to check if I have posted these threads. If not, I will for your understanding. **

The Old Covenant being broken is the end the second law in (Ex 33-40), all of the Book of Leviticus and the first ten chapters of Numbers. The book of Malachi (2:3, 8: 3:1, 5, 16-17; 4:1) confirms this. New Covenant is the writing of the moral law on the heart and there is no mention of the covenant with Noah.

Of course that Malachi would not mention the Nahite Covenant vis-a-vis the New Covenant. The New Covenant is spiritually justaposed to the Sinaitic Covenant, not the Noahite Covenant. The Noahite Covenant is with all Mankind. The Sinaitic Covenant was with Israel only. The spiritual counterpart, which is the New Covenant is therefore supposed to be with Israel only.

The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No longer will they have need to teach their friends and kinsmen how to know the LORD. All, from least to greatest, shall know me, says the LORD, for I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sin no more. (Jer 31:31-34)
 
Ben Masada;5094965:
Benjamin8o8;5094348:
Oh boy, whats next? The landing of the moon was hoax? the govenemrnt is hidding the secrets behind area 51? Abraham practiced Islam? The govermenment planned the 9/11 atack? a UFO was recovered at Roswell? come on man, you`re an educated person…put these conspiracy theories to a rest.

Stop taking words out of the Bible to suit your man-made theory and accept the facts please.

Oh, I am sorry! You should have told me not to quote anything that might hurt your ears.
Acts 7 — Stephen is stoned to death in the Temple, by the Jews, with Saul witnessing.

I don’t believe that stoning ever happened. No one could stone someone in Israel if not condemned by the Sanhedrin. If you read the text without church blinders, the man was stoned after he delivered a heretic sermon. Therefore, he could not be stoned for those words. He had to return to the Sanhedrin to be judged. And once judged and condemned, there was no more chance to speak or explain his position. So, it never happend. That’s the same fabricated accusation made by the writers of the NT
also with regards to Jesus: That the Jews killed both: Jesus and Stephen. I know an antisemitic act when I see one.


Stephen did not have to be judged, Peter and another apostle (I believe it was James) were already judged by the official high priests. They were also put in prision but escaped. This must have made the Jewish officals very upset because not only did their captives escape by an angel send by God, but they heard the same Christian preaching from ANOTHER apostle. This was enough to make the Jews angry enough to kill Stephen without a trial in order to send a message for anybody else deciding to spread Christianity.

Acts 8 — “A great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem.” Paher even admits that Paul, in Acts 8, was “aggressively persecuting” Christians. (P. 3). The text says the persecution was so severe that the only Christians left in Jerusalem were the apostles. This means that literally thousands upon thousands of Christians were forced to flee the city due to persecution. This was at the very time that Paher insists good relations prevailed between the church and the synagogue.

There was a policy among the Romans to arrest the heads of any movement, so that the followers would disperse. Here, you are telling me something the opposite. Persecution of the followers and leaving the heads of the movement in peace. This story is not well told. There were no Christians yet. Those were members of the Sect of the Nazarenes. Christians started quite later with Paul in Antioch. (Acts 11:26) Now, where was Paul persecuting the Nazarenes? Oh, I remember; he went to Jerusalem for letters from the Priests to arrest Nazarenes in Damascus. Two reasons why this is a lie. First contradiction: Even in the Land of Israel, the Jews had lost legal power to condemn one to death. How could Israel send an envoy to arrest citizens of another country, which was Syria? Makes no sense. Now, for the second contradiction: Paul goes to Jerusalem for authorization to arrest Nazarenes in Damascus, when the headquarters of the Nazarenes was in Jerusalem. Why not start with Jerusalem? How do you explain that?

No, I am not saying anything thats contrary, look at closely what you said. You said there were no Christians yet, well if that was a factthat yes, I would be contradicting myself. But considering that you`re not following any history facts your theory holds no water whatsoever.

Even the vast majority of Jews blame Jesus Christ for the Catholic Church.

Acts 13:42-51 — **The Jewish persecution of Paul **and his ministry was so acute that Paul shook the dust from his feet. This was a sign of assigning them to judgment.

That’s an interesting episode about Paul. He used to preach mostly in the synagogues of the Jews, although claiming that he was an apostle of the Gentiles. In Acts 13 he had been so much opposed by the Jews that he shook the dust from his feet and said, “we now turn to the Gentiles.” Do you know where he went to after he shook the dust of his feet and left? To the synagogue of Iconium. (Acts 14:1) Wasn’t the man something? He loved to say that he was the apostle for the Gentiles and never left the Jews in peace, as if Gentiles were to be found in the synagogues of the Jews. What credibility such a man could have?
🤷
Acts 18 — We have already seen the Jewish nature and instigation of this persecution.

You have, haven’t you? So have I of the Christian nature to persecute the Jews throughout History. If I start to tell you here about Christian Crusades, Christian Inquisition and Christian blood libels, I’ll be typing this for days.

True Christian don`t persecute others for their own pleasure, ture Christians are: Saint Peter, Sain John, Saint Stephen, and Saint Paul:)

You are so intoxicated with Jewish hatred that you don’t even know how to study your own NT. That persecution started in Rome against the Jews, who were expelled from Rome, as a result of an edict signed by the Emperor Claudius ordering all Jews to leave Rome. (Acts 18:2) The fire of those persecutions followed them to Israel and throughout Asia Minor. That’s why many went to Antioch, as the Nazarene Synagogue grew out of proportions. (Acts 11:19-26)

I`m waiting for a reply

Ben:🙂
 
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