The Mass as a tool for evangelization?

[jimmy]

Ok. Sorry i have neglected this, but I will quote

1 Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus … ”

ONE mediator. Not Mary, approving everything Jesus does. If we say that limbo has existed for 900 years, does that make it right? No. The bible is patently clear on this.

Remember, if your church is off on one point of doctrine, then it is just as “inspired” as any protestant denomination. And nobody has answered this yet! Clear, biblical or historical evidence that everything Jesus has to do comes through Mary. And dont give me that “we taught it for X amount of years so its true”. Just because you can “prove” 90% of Catholic doctrine, does not mean the other 10% we should take for granted.

Note: mods, please tell me if something is not appropriate. I cooperate 100% and enjoy the witty banter, I dont want to be kicked.

So it is not mediation every time Paul asks for the prayers of those he writes to? It is not mediation when he tells them he is praying for them? It is not mediation when you pray for your wife or kids or parents or whatever? Last time I checked these were all forms of mediation. Therefore your understanding of the verse you quote is false.

 

[maurin]

Yeah, yeah… crossing the river Tiber to Rome.

As for me… I prefer crossing the river Jourdan… to “Glory”.

I think someone needs a hug to chase the nasties away. Turn that frown upside down mister.

And try to behave appropriately.

 

[Jody60]

Different ‘tools’ work for different people. An evengelical friend of mine was totally taken by the Mass his first time. What caught his eye and made him listen and open his heart during Mass? His words: "In the churches I’ve gone to all my life, I saw men standing in prayer, raising their arms or holding up their bibles. I walked into a Catholic Church and saw men on their knees before God.

Here we go again! Please get it through your head that Jesus and the disciples ate the bread and drank the wine in remembrance of the crucifixion to come. Jesus wasn’t even dead yet. Nothing miraculous happened. God didn’t appear from heaven. Surely something out of the ordinary would have occured if this was really his blood and flesh. Look at what hapened when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.

Mark 1 9:11

It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized in the Jordan. And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. Than a voice came from heaven , You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

 

[Psalm45_9]

Here we go again! Please get it through your head that Jesus and the disciples ate the bread and drank the wine in remembrance of the crucifixion to come. Jesus wasn’t even dead yet. Nothing miraculous happened. God didn’t appear from heaven. Surely something out of the ordinary would have occured if this was really his blood and flesh.

God is not constrained to time, he can make the sacrifice of Calvary present before it even historically took place.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Mark 1 9:11

It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized in the Jordan. And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. Than a voice came from heaven , You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Did the Heavens rip open when Jesus curred a blind man? All he did was apply mud to his eyes and told him to wash himself.

 

[Jody60]

Did the Heavens rip open when Jesus curred a blind man? All he did was apply mud to his eyes and told him to wash himself.

No, but look at what happened after the crucifixtion. In the “Holy of Holies” the curtain was torn in half, the sky darkened and there was an earthquake. I know… nothing miraculous. I’ll ask you again "why no reaction from God at the “Last Supper”? The Eucharist is supposed to be the foundation of your religion and yet not even a little peep from God.

 

[Church_Militant]

No, but look at what happened after the crucifixtion. In the “Holy of Holies” the curtain was torn in half, the sky darkened and there was an earthquake. I know… nothing miraculous. I’ll ask you again "why no reaction from God at the “Last Supper”? The Eucharist is supposed to be the foundation of your religion and yet not even a little peep from God.

What do you mean “not even a little peep from God”…what is Jesus? Chopped liver?

You discount a miracle…but you’d do well to look at some other passages of the New Testament. [SIGN]Like this…[/SIGN] Post 4 is particularly relevent since it shows that St. Paul believed and taught that Christ;'s body and blood were really there.

See This Post too.

 

[asteroid]

Yeah, yeah… crossing the river Tiber to Rome.

As for me… I prefer crossing the river Jourdan… to “Glory”.

As for me, I’d prefer to cross both rivers. The Tiber does not exclude the Jordan and the Jordan does not exclude the Tiber.

 

[asteroid]

[sign]The Eucharist in Scripture[/sign]

Hey, that’s really cool having a sign and putting a web link in it. To be honest I’ve only posted this to learn how to do it but the link provides reams of scriptures and then quotations from the early church that are all good for discussion. Probably a lot of people here have already seen it.

The verses CM posted in his link were one of the key steps in my walk and swim across the Tiber. All he’s really done there is collect every explicit scriptural reference to the Eucharist in one place. But put together, and taken to mean what they say, they point straight at the truths seen in Catholicism.

In this case, the Scriptures can speak for themselves far louder than anyone here can.

And you even get to see Karl Keating symbolically explode in CMs link. Glad that post was well before the great crash of 2006 and so survived.

 

[djrakowski]

Yeah, yeah… crossing the river Tiber to Rome.

As for me… I prefer crossing the river Jourdan… to “Glory”.

Ummmm… okayyyy… I was just talkin’ about how CM helped me when I was considering the Catholic Church.

 

[djrakowski]

No, but look at what happened after the crucifixtion. In the “Holy of Holies” the curtain was torn in half, the sky darkened and there was an earthquake. I know… nothing miraculous. I’ll ask you again "why no reaction from God at the “Last Supper”? The Eucharist is supposed to be the foundation of your religion and yet not even a little peep from God.

Not even a peep, eh? How 'bout the words of Jesus himself?

John 6:53-55 (NIV) - Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.”

How could “real food” and “real drink” be symbolic?

Matthew 26:26-28 (NIV) - While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

This is like my body? This is like my blood? Nope. This IS.

 

[Jody60]

One way to use the mass for evangelization would be in discussion to see -

the use of Scripture in the Mass, not only in the readings but as the basis for the prayers and pretty much everything else

the way the Mass, the different parts of the service, the Eucharist, the role of the ministerial priest, the presence of Jesus in the Mass etc, relates not only to Scripture but to the teachings of the church from the 1st to the 21st centuries, and what they mean to our lives not just as theories but in terms of our relationship with God and with each other

the basic beliefs of the Church in the creed

how we can relate to the conception, birth, life, suffering, death, resurrection, ascension and future coming in glory of our Saviour all of which are referred to in the Mass

the wonderful Sacrament that Jesus left us and how that relates to Scripture, to the teaching of the Church through history and to our own lives today individually and as the communion/family of the Church.

the way the Mass shows the depths of God’s love for us and the depths of his call for our lives

and many other things too - but I’m limited in time to think of them.

The Mass was not devised as a tool for evangelisation so we can expect other things to be better tools for that purpose. However, a study of the mysteries of the Mass superbly illustrates our faith, God’s movement in our lives and in history, and our response to God.

As someone I know says, “you could study the Mass for a lifetime and not get to the end of it”. When I first heard him say that I didn’t believe it and thought it nonsense. But over the last couple of years (it’s only 2 years since I started to attend Mass after 14 years in other churches) I have started to understand the truth of what he says.

It is very sad if you never heard as a Catholic about entering into a relationship with Jesus. The whole of Catholic life should be about a relationship with Jesus, loving service to Jesus and about bringing, through our lives, Jesus and indeed the Trinity to the world. (‘bringing’ might not be the best word there, sorry). Indeed, what is the Mass if it does not include a relationship with Jesus in a most intimate way?

It is also very sad if you didn’t hear that Jesus was the Saviour. He is the Saviour, the Way, the Truth, the Life. That’s Catholic teaching. Unfortunately there are Catholic churches around the place where such teaching has been lacking. Hopefully teaching, catechetics will continue to improve as the years progress. On behalf of the Catholic Church I apologise for the lack of teaching you received. It is probably not really my place to do that but I’ll do it anyway!

I too am a slave. I am in good company there. Paul was a slave too, a slave, or bond-servant, to Christ. But I am also free because Christ has set me free.

Anyway, my God bless you Only Scripture on your journey into Christ. That’s an interesting name you’ve chosen for yourself. What exactly do you mean by it, and can you justify what you mean using only Scripture to do so?

It is true that the Mass is not used to evangelize. It can’t be used because it is not of God. That is why Catholics end up converting when they hear the salvation message preached.Yes, the Mass speaks of Jesus dying for our sins but not in a personal way.

The Bible says that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and will not drink from the cup again until he returns at the second coming.

I would have to say that the baptism with the “Holy Spirit” entails a personal relationship with God because the Spirit is constantly residing inside ones being. The baptism does not have to be re-newed over and over again like the Mass. It is a one time event. It is God living within me. The Bible refers to the “Holy Spirit” as the helper and that is exactly what he does. He helps me overcome my iniquities.

 

[Psalm45_9]

I know… nothing miraculous. I’ll ask you again "why no reaction from God at the “Last Supper”? The Eucharist is supposed to be the foundation of your religion and yet not even a little peep from God.

Did the earth quake and the heavens thunder as our Lord Asceneded into Heaven?

 

[Jody60]

Not even a peep, eh? How 'bout the words of Jesus himself?

John 6:53-55 (NIV) - Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.”

How could “real food” and “real drink” be symbolic?

Matthew 26:26-28 (NIV) - While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

This is like my body? This is like my blood? Nope. This IS.

In Luke chapter 22 it states that the chalice is the new covenant. Does the cup also transubstantiate… because that is exactly what the passage says.

 

[djrakowski]

It is true that the Mass is not used to evangelize. It can’t be used because it is not of God. That is why Catholics end up converting when they hear the salvation message preached.Yes, the Mass speaks of Jesus dying for our sins but not in a personal way.

Right. So the ones who convert to Catholicism from other faiths are deceived. Uh-huh.

The Bible says that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and will not drink from the cup again until he returns at the second coming.

Your point is?

I would have to say that the baptism with the “Holy Spirit” entails a personal relationship with God because the Spirit is constantly residing inside ones being.

You would have to say? What does the Bible say?

The baptism does not have to be re-newed over and over again like the Mass. It is a one time event. It is God living within me. The Bible refers to the “Holy Spirit” as the helper and that is exactly what he does. He helps me overcome my iniquities.

You’re confusing baptism “that now saves you” (1 Peter 3:21, NIV) witht the sacrifice of the Mass, in which we “proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes” (1 Cor. 11:26, NIV) and receive the Eucharist, about which Our Lord promised, “so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.” (John 6:57, NIV).

Try backing up what you say with some scripture. Catholics have used plenty, and you’ve offered little to none. If your case is so strong, you ought to be able to prove it.

 

[djrakowski]

In Luke chapter 22 it states that the chalice is the new covenant. Does the cup also transubstantiate… because that is exactly what the passage says.

Sure, if you read the Bible in a strictly fundamentalist, literalist manner, instead of considering context, idiom, writing style, etc. What is contained in the cup, obviously, is what the Lord transubstantiates.

This is your weak attempt at getting around “my flesh is real food,” and “my blood is real drink?”

 

[mercygate]

It is true that the Mass is not used to evangelize. It can’t be used because it is not of God. That is why Catholics end up converting when they hear the salvation message preached.Yes, the Mass speaks of Jesus dying for our sins but not in a personal way.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here, do you?

The Bible says that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and will not drink from the cup again until he returns at the second coming.

Perhaps the notation on your profile that you have no religion explains this bizarre statement. Jody: nowhere does it say in Scripture that Jesus will not drink from the cup again until he returns at the second coming. NOWHERE! If you’re going to harass us with Scripture, at least harass us with Scripture as it is written.

I would have to say that the baptism with the “Holy Spirit” entails a personal relationship with God because the Spirit is constantly residing inside ones being. The baptism does not have to be re-newed over and over again like the Mass. It is a one time event. It is God living within me. The Bible refers to the “Holy Spirit” as the helper and that is exactly what he does. He helps me overcome my iniquities.

I will leave it to my competent colleagues to address the misconceptions about the Mass in this statement.

I’m begging you here: If you are going to attack my beliefs, at least attack what I really believe. If you are going to use Scripture to do it, at least use Scripture and not your personal misrepresentation of it.

 

[Jody60]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here, do you?

Perhaps the notation on your profile that you have no religion explains this bizarre statement. Jody: nowhere does it say in Scripture that Jesus will not drink from the cup again until he returns at the second coming. NOWHERE! If you’re going to harass us with Scripture, at least harass us with Scripture as it is written.

**It most certaintly does. In Luke 22 verse 18. It says: For I say unto you , I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes. After Jesus was crucified he left the “Holy Spirit” to be with us. He is not present in the Mass. **

 

[mercygate]

**It most certaintly does. In Luke 22 verse 18. It says: For I say unto you , I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes. After Jesus was crucified he left the “Holy Spirit” to be with us. He is not present in the Mass. **

You said earlier: “The Bible says that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and will not drink from the cup again until he returns at the second coming.”

Again: if you are going to quote Scripture, then quote Scripture. The passage you cite does not say “until I come again.” It says “until the kingdom of God comes.” There is a world of theological difference in those two statements. (Anyway, your statement tells us that you don’t believe in the rapture! LOL)

I would guide you toward an excellent discussion of “drinking of the fruit of the vine” by Dr. Scott Hahn – googlel it on the 'net; it’s called The Fourth Cup.

As to Christ’s presence in the Eucharist, perhaps I can rephrase your statement in a more civil way.

Jody to CAF: How do Catholics understand the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? From my faith tradition, this doesn’t make sense.

 

[Jody60]

Right. So the ones who convert to Catholicism from other faiths are deceived. Uh-huh.
Your point is?

You would have to say? What does the Bible say?
You’re confusing baptism “that now saves you” (1 Peter 3:21, NIV) witht the sacrifice of the Mass, in which we “proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes” (1 Cor. 11:26, NIV) and receive the Eucharist, about which Our Lord promised, “so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.” (John 6:57, NIV).

My point is you were never baptized with the “Holy Spirit”. You need to take a good look at your insides and stop blaming other people and the Evangelical church for your inadequantcies.The first step is to get saved. The second step is to be baptized with the Spirit.

**So, you do admit that the Mass is a continuous re-sacrifice of Jesus?

I also "proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes again when I take communion in rememberance of him. But only in memory.
**