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jimmy
Guest
Since Christ came through Mary therefore she is the mediatrix of all graces. To deny that she is mediatrix of all graces is to deny that all grace comes through Christ. You have just declared yourself a non-Christian.
- Status
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jmcrae
Guest
He and they were circumcised - that was the sign of the Old Testament covenant. (Given the two choices, I’ll take Baptism, thanks.)
Jesus did not institute Christian Baptism until after His Resurrection (see Matthew 28:16-20) - John’s baptism was symbolic; not sacramental. Prior to that time, Sacramental baptism was not required (which is why the “Good Thief” St. Dismas did not need to be baptized) - they were in the physical presence of Jesus, and He was all the Sacrament that they needed - that’s what Sacraments do, is they make us present to Christ. But people who were already physically present to Christ didn’t need the Sacraments - the Sacraments are for us who are living after His ascension into Heaven, who need these conduits of grace to connect us into His presence.
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Phat
Guest
I won’t say much, but reading the auguments from both side, i have not seen much premises from Only Scripture point of view. Please, by the grace of God that you so believe to be only in Holy Scripture, show sound scriptural evidences to assert the opinion by which you undoubtly receive from a fellow separated brother or sister to which you have denounced the Truth to be in her Holy mother Church. I might add, the foundation of Jesus Christ must be strong and the Catholic Church is the only True Church that rest her foundation on three principles: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magestrium while Protestanism hold one principle that I believe can not function stably and steadfast. Catholicism is like a triangle which is one of the strongest and stablest shape in engineering while Protestanism is like a line that is hard to support upon itself. I pray for you to reconsider your conscience and realize that it isn’t always about “feeling” but a commiment to love. peace.
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ONLY_SCRIPTURE
Guest
More equine fertilizer…
Think logically here… All grace comes to us through Christ, correct?
The Blessed Virgin is His mother, correct?
That means that Christ came into the world through Mary, correct?
Then …in a very real sense all grace does indeed come to us through Mary.
Now…does she replace Christ? No! In fact, what was her message in the 2nd chapter of John’s Gospel? What specific message did she give to the servants at the wedding feast at Cana? Here…I’ll make it easy on you (Edited by Moderator) John 2:5 says, “His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.” (emphasis mine so you don’t miss it…)
Now…if you were to check into all the approved apparitions of the Blessed Virgin, (the way I have) you would discover several things, but one that I feel is probably the most important of all is the consistent message she brings. It will always boil down to one very important and simple Gospel…Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. But of course you didn’t know that did you?
BTW…It was bad enough when you were using this name and your other account on here (Kata_Loukan isn’t it?) both to post those ugly Jack Chick tract pictures in your posts, (What? You didn’t think that I noticed that and the fact that your join dates are within a week of each other and you “just happened” to have the very same Chick page in your posts! Sheesh! That’s not rocket science. ) but if you don’t knock off the a-C perjoratives in your posts (Like “Roman hubris”) I’m gonna report you to the moderators for violating the forum conduct rules which say, “Inappropriate or offensive graphics, links, or profile entries are not permitted” and then, “Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.”
I and most all of the Catholics here at CAF could care less that you want to have issues with the Catholic faith, but abide by the rules and show some respect for our faith, or don’t post. It’s inflammatory and offensive and you know it is.
So, knock it off!
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,
Wow. How incredibly clever of you. Considering my family (including my brother, KATA_LOUKAN (we are fraternal twins) are Catholic, I hijacked his account, and put that picture in to make it my own. His posts defend Catholicism (somthing I am not keen on doing), so you might see a weird contradiction. Anyways, I apologized and gave him his account back, thinking he wont be using it cause we attend separate colleges and I have the computer. My bad. Dont blame him.
You are clearly a belligerent fellow with nothing better to do than track my IP or whatever, and quite frankly you should be busy spreading your glorious opinions elsewhere.
Equine fertilizer? Very mature. So you have to resort to name calling? I am entitled to my opinion, and I must apologize if I am blunt in expressing it, but I have seen Romans in my life. Living just like their athiest counterparts. I am trying to be honest, by giving C A F a read, and here you are expressing your poisonous attitude.
And what message was my Chick cartoon conveying? That you wind up in hell cause you dont accept Jesus as savior? You better read up on your faith, because you need Jesus to be saved, Catholic or not. If the mods deem it inappropriate, I will remove it.
How about I call your beliefs HORSE MANURE?
Look in the mirror about respecting beliefs, buddy.
Think logically here… All grace comes to us through Christ, correct?
The Blessed Virgin is His mother, correct?
That means that Christ came into the world through Mary, correct?
Then …in a very real sense all grace does indeed come to us through Mary.
Now…does she replace Christ? No! In fact, what was her message in the 2nd chapter of John’s Gospel? What specific message did she give to the servants at the wedding feast at Cana? Here…I’ll make it easy on you (Edited by Moderator) John 2:5 says, “His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.” (emphasis mine so you don’t miss it…)
Now…if you were to check into all the approved apparitions of the Blessed Virgin, (the way I have) you would discover several things, but one that I feel is probably the most important of all is the consistent message she brings. It will always boil down to one very important and simple Gospel…Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. But of course you didn’t know that did you?
BTW…It was bad enough when you were using this name and your other account on here (Kata_Loukan isn’t it?) both to post those ugly Jack Chick tract pictures in your posts, (What? You didn’t think that I noticed that and the fact that your join dates are within a week of each other and you “just happened” to have the very same Chick page in your posts! Sheesh! That’s not rocket science. ) but if you don’t knock off the a-C perjoratives in your posts (Like “Roman hubris”) I’m gonna report you to the moderators for violating the forum conduct rules which say, “Inappropriate or offensive graphics, links, or profile entries are not permitted” and then, “Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.”
I and most all of the Catholics here at CAF could care less that you want to have issues with the Catholic faith, but abide by the rules and show some respect for our faith, or don’t post. It’s inflammatory and offensive and you know it is.
So, knock it off!
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,
Wow. How incredibly clever of you. Considering my family (including my brother, KATA_LOUKAN (we are fraternal twins) are Catholic, I hijacked his account, and put that picture in to make it my own. His posts defend Catholicism (somthing I am not keen on doing), so you might see a weird contradiction. Anyways, I apologized and gave him his account back, thinking he wont be using it cause we attend separate colleges and I have the computer. My bad. Dont blame him.
You are clearly a belligerent fellow with nothing better to do than track my IP or whatever, and quite frankly you should be busy spreading your glorious opinions elsewhere.
Equine fertilizer? Very mature. So you have to resort to name calling? I am entitled to my opinion, and I must apologize if I am blunt in expressing it, but I have seen Romans in my life. Living just like their athiest counterparts. I am trying to be honest, by giving C A F a read, and here you are expressing your poisonous attitude.
And what message was my Chick cartoon conveying? That you wind up in hell cause you dont accept Jesus as savior? You better read up on your faith, because you need Jesus to be saved, Catholic or not. If the mods deem it inappropriate, I will remove it.
How about I call your beliefs HORSE MANURE?
Look in the mirror about respecting beliefs, buddy.
O
ONLY_SCRIPTURE
Guest
Ok. Sorry i have neglected this, but I will quote
1 Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus … ”
ONE mediator. Not Mary, approving everything Jesus does. If we say that limbo has existed for 900 years, does that make it right? No. The bible is patently clear on this.
Remember, if your church is off on one point of doctrine, then it is just as “inspired” as any protestant denomination. And nobody has answered this yet! Clear, biblical or historical evidence that everything Jesus has to do comes through Mary. And dont give me that “we taught it for X amount of years so its true”. Just because you can “prove” 90% of Catholic doctrine, does not mean the other 10% we should take for granted.
Note: mods, please tell me if something is not appropriate. I cooperate 100% and enjoy the witty banter, I dont want to be kicked.
1 Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus … ”
ONE mediator. Not Mary, approving everything Jesus does. If we say that limbo has existed for 900 years, does that make it right? No. The bible is patently clear on this.
Remember, if your church is off on one point of doctrine, then it is just as “inspired” as any protestant denomination. And nobody has answered this yet! Clear, biblical or historical evidence that everything Jesus has to do comes through Mary. And dont give me that “we taught it for X amount of years so its true”. Just because you can “prove” 90% of Catholic doctrine, does not mean the other 10% we should take for granted.
Note: mods, please tell me if something is not appropriate. I cooperate 100% and enjoy the witty banter, I dont want to be kicked.
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asteroid
Guest
Great quote. Catholics believe it 100%.
Here’s a paper about this very verse, the meaning of ‘mediator’ and the catholic beliefs, which take full account of the first verses of the chapter.
Basically the Catholic looks at some of the things Christians are called to do. One of them is to intercede for one another - and this is in itself a form of being a mediator between God and man. If we pray “Lord, bring that person to you, to salvation, to heaven”, then we are mediating.
But we can only mediate because of what Christ, the one mediator, has done and because of who he is, and because of the authority that has, through grace, been given us through Christ. He is the one mediator. We are ‘subordinate mediators’ called to mediate in the name and authority of Christ.
I don’t know of any protestant church that has done away with subordinate mediators and said that since Jesus is the one mediator you don’t have to pray for one another, interceding always. The Bible is patently clear that we are all mediators, subordinate to the one mediator, called to pray for others before the Lord of Hosts.
If we are called to mediate in the name of Christ, how much more are those in heaven, more alive than us here, the cloud of witnesses whose prayer is likened to incense, called to mediate, to intercede for us, in the name of Christ?
How much more so does this apply to Mary, the mother of Christ, who is, in common with the pattern revealed in the Davidic kingdom, even called Queen of Heaven (mother of the king)?
As the Catechism says, quoting one of the documents of the Second Vatican Council - “Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it.”
It continues, "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512 (emphasis mine)
I’m sure others will be able to give clearer, shorter and better answers to the question than me. My advice to you would be not to take a single verse and pull it out of its context before asking what it means. Rather, leave that verse in context and then ask what it means. This can bring about major differences.
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asteroid
Guest
I’ve got a couple of questions about that strange cartoon.
If you must use the name ScriptureAlone, as you are free to do, could you refrain from posting such laughable cartoons that are so against what Scripture says?
One final note. We are Catholics. Jesus is our saviour. And yes, he is our Lord. And our personal saviour - personal since we are in a wonderful loving relationship with him. Wonderful.
- Why has the man’s head been removed? Where do you get that in the Bible?
- Why is Satan in charge of hell? Where do you get that in the Bible? Where does your Bible say that Satan will be put in charge of hell instead of being judged and rightly punished?
If you must use the name ScriptureAlone, as you are free to do, could you refrain from posting such laughable cartoons that are so against what Scripture says?
One final note. We are Catholics. Jesus is our saviour. And yes, he is our Lord. And our personal saviour - personal since we are in a wonderful loving relationship with him. Wonderful.
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asteroid
Guest
I just found something else very good on the mediation of Mary, an artice from L’Osservatore Romano:
miraclerosarymission.org/971008.htm
It discusses the term mediator, it discusses 1Tim2:1-5 and discusses the passages from the Vatican Council document Lumen gentium that the Catechism quoted. The document LG also quotes 1Tim2:5.
As I said - others are capable of far better answers than me.
Here’s a small section but I can recommend reading it all:
In proclaiming Christ the one mediator (cf. 1 Tm 2:5-6), the text of St Paul’s Letter to Timothy excludes any other parallel mediation, but not subordinate mediation. In fact, before emphasizing the one exclusive mediation of Christ, the author urges “that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men” (2:1). Are not prayers a form of mediation? Indeed, according to St Paul, the unique mediation of Christ is meant to encourage other dependent, ministerial forms of meditation. By proclaiming the uniqueness of Christ’s mediation, the Apostle intends only to exclude any autonomous or rival mediation, and not other forms compatible with the infinite value of the Saviour’s work.
miraclerosarymission.org/971008.htm
It discusses the term mediator, it discusses 1Tim2:1-5 and discusses the passages from the Vatican Council document Lumen gentium that the Catechism quoted. The document LG also quotes 1Tim2:5.
As I said - others are capable of far better answers than me.
Here’s a small section but I can recommend reading it all:
In proclaiming Christ the one mediator (cf. 1 Tm 2:5-6), the text of St Paul’s Letter to Timothy excludes any other parallel mediation, but not subordinate mediation. In fact, before emphasizing the one exclusive mediation of Christ, the author urges “that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men” (2:1). Are not prayers a form of mediation? Indeed, according to St Paul, the unique mediation of Christ is meant to encourage other dependent, ministerial forms of meditation. By proclaiming the uniqueness of Christ’s mediation, the Apostle intends only to exclude any autonomous or rival mediation, and not other forms compatible with the infinite value of the Saviour’s work.
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ltehs63
Guest
There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, but as members of the Body of Christ, He allows us to share in His mediation.
Scripture tells us that we have only one foundation, Jesus Christ
(1Cor 3:11); Scripture also tells us that there is more than one foundation (Eph 2:19-20). Scripture tells us that we have only one Lord, Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4-5); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one lord (Rev 19:16). Scripture tells us that we have only one Judge, Jesus Christ (James 4:12); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one judge (1 Cor 6:2).
Contradictions in Scripture? No! Not when these passages are all properly understood in context. Jesus is the only foundation; Jesus is the only Lord; and Jesus is the only Judge. But, we are members of Jesus’ Body. Therefore, we are able, according to the graces given by Christ, to share in Jesus’ role as foundation, as lord, and as judge, and in other aspects of Christ, as well. we, and the saints in Heaven, and the angels in Heaven, can share in Christ’s role as Mediator.
that was from
www.biblechristiansociety.com/2min_apologetics.php?id=16
check it our sometime
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LilyM
Guest
About as mature as hijacking (your word) your brother’s forum account knowing that people here may think your anti-Catholic opinions are held (or shared) by him?
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John_Henry
Guest
The doctrine of the Mediatrix hasn’t got a very clear definition at this point in time. Suffice to say that it need not mean that everything Jesus has to do comes through Mary. As people have pointed out, it can only refer to the fact that Mary “mediated” grace to us through her allowing the Incarnation to happen through her “yes” to God. It can also refer to her prayers for us Christians in heaven.
This last part is the part I’d like to briefly focus on. You quoted 1 Tim 2:5, saying that Jesus is the “one” mediator, which, of course, he is. I’d like to quote some verse surrounding that verse:
Here, Paul says that Christians can be intercessors for each other **because **Christ is the one mediator between God and men. That is all the Church means by “Mediatrix”. Mary, a Christian, can be an intercessor for other Christians (you and me) because Christ is the one mediator. In the sense that a Christian prays to the Father through Jesus Christ, any Christian (including Mary) can be a “mediator” of grace to another. It’s just that other Christians don’t get fancy titles because, well, we weren’t the Mother of God.
I can’t find the reference right now, but the CCC makes it clear that this mediation of the faithful is a participation in the unique mediatorship of Christ. This is analogous to the fact that Christ is our unique high priest, and yet gives all the faithful a share in this pristhood (i.e., the universal priesthood). Also, scripture call Jesus God’s “only” son. But, similarly, he shares his sonship with us so that we are made sons in the Son. God is the “one” Father, but he gives all fathers a share in his Fatherhood. Etc, etc. You get the point.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Look in the mirror about respecting beliefs, buddy.I never said that your religious beliefs were anything… I said that your rhetorical propaganda about the Catholic faith is. Big difference.
I don’t have access to your IP, but it wasn’t much of a sherlock to see that K_L suddenly had changed post content, and I knew from past experience that that was not his style. You…OTOH were ( I note a change in status…
) a newbie and when I saw the art in posts from both accounts I made the logical connection.Hijacking someone else’s account is a bad thing. Did it not occur to you that that is not something that a Christian does? Especially not to another Christian? Especially to a sibling?
I’m not belligerent, I’m intolerant of allowing others to attempt to proselytize my good Catholic brothers and sisters away from our most holy faith with lies, misinformation, and ignorant propaganda, and every one of your posts drips with it…especially when you chose to use an offensive Jack Chick tract-page as your signature here.
The New Testament nowhere says that one must “accept Jesus as savior”. It’s simply not there.
Catholics will never quibble about our need for Jesus in order to be saved, but there is a wide difference between the actual New Testament message of salvation and the “Christianity Lite” that has evolved in the 500 year wake of “the reformation” and if you had taken the time to “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” (2nd Timothy 2:15) when you were a Catholic not only would you not have departed from the faith, but you might have helped to turn some of those lax and sinful Catholics that you gripe about from the error of their ways and all would’ve been the better for it. (James 5 says “19: My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back,
20: let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”)
As for “spreading…elsewhere”. I do…but I intend to always be here at CAF where some of the best Catholics learn to explain and defend our faith with some very cool n-Cs. But…you ain’t one of 'em.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,
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Mickey
Guest
Three cheers for Church Militant!!! :clapping:
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Church_Militant
Guest
Aw…shucks…
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Todd_Easton
Guest
When John quotes Jesus as saying to his beloved disciple with reference to Mary, “Behold your mother,” and saying to Mary with reference to his beloved disciple, “Behold your son,” Jesus had more in mind than the temporal welfare of his mother. Jesus was establishing Mary’s motherhood over all Christians, as can be clearly seen in Revelation 12:17 which states that “those who keep the commandments and give witness to Jesus” are “the offspring” of the same woman (Mary) who gave birth to the male child (Jesus) who was caught up to God and who is to rule the world with an iron rod (verse 5) and is later identified (Rev 19:13,16) as the Word of God, the Lord of lords and King of kings. In other words, Mary is our spiritual mother.
Now God has ordained that once a human life is conceived all his material needs are supplied by his mother’s body as he develops in her womb and even years after he is born he is dependent upon her for his well-being. From the moment of his conception until he was weened at least, Jesus was dependent on Mary to supply all his physical needs. By the Scriptures above, God has established Mary as our spiritual mother, and if that means anything, it means that all our spiritual needs (graces) are supplied solely through Mary from the time of our spiritual conception to the time of our spiritual rebirth and beyond. The early Christians understood this and described the womb of Mary as “the pure womb which regenerates men unto God.” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, writing about A.D. 189, in his work, Against Heresies,bk. 4, ch. 33, par. 11)
Since no one is regenerated unto God apart from the graces of Jesus Christ and it is Mary’s womb which regenerates men unto God, Mary must mediate the graces of Jesus Christ to men.
This teaching in no way contradicts St. Paul who said that Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and men. If St. Paul wrote before Mary departed this life, then there is obviously no contradiction because Mary was not establishment as our spiritual mother and the mediatrix of all graces in the fullest sense until after she departed this life. If St. Paul wrote after Mary departed this life, then the “men” he refers to could easily mean “Mary and her dependent spiritual children.”
Now God has ordained that once a human life is conceived all his material needs are supplied by his mother’s body as he develops in her womb and even years after he is born he is dependent upon her for his well-being. From the moment of his conception until he was weened at least, Jesus was dependent on Mary to supply all his physical needs. By the Scriptures above, God has established Mary as our spiritual mother, and if that means anything, it means that all our spiritual needs (graces) are supplied solely through Mary from the time of our spiritual conception to the time of our spiritual rebirth and beyond. The early Christians understood this and described the womb of Mary as “the pure womb which regenerates men unto God.” (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, writing about A.D. 189, in his work, Against Heresies,bk. 4, ch. 33, par. 11)
Since no one is regenerated unto God apart from the graces of Jesus Christ and it is Mary’s womb which regenerates men unto God, Mary must mediate the graces of Jesus Christ to men.
This teaching in no way contradicts St. Paul who said that Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and men. If St. Paul wrote before Mary departed this life, then there is obviously no contradiction because Mary was not establishment as our spiritual mother and the mediatrix of all graces in the fullest sense until after she departed this life. If St. Paul wrote after Mary departed this life, then the “men” he refers to could easily mean “Mary and her dependent spiritual children.”
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djrakowski
Guest
Dude, don’t be so humble. You practically carried me 'cross the Tiber on your back!
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Psalm45_9
Guest
“Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered; let those who hate him flee before him! As smoke is driven away, so drive them away; as wax melts before fire, let the wicked perish before God! But let the righteous be joyful; let them exult before God; let them be jubilant with joy! Sing to God, sing praises to his name; lift up a song to him who rides upon the clouds; his name is the LORD, exult before him!” (Psalm 68:1-4)
Jesus is Lord! :bowdown2:
PS. Like my signiture?
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Church_Militant
Guest
You guys’re nuts (but I love ya…) I agree with Our Lord concerning myself.
Luke 17:10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’"
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,
Luke 17:10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’"
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,
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asteroid
Guest
Farewell to you ScriptureAlone.
I hope through reading everything people have posted you have been able to learn something about the good reasons why Catholics believe as we do and why we would say the Mass is so beautiful and rich. You can disagree with it all, that’s fine, but hopefully you’ve had the grace to listen and learn.
If you return here with another name, and I personally hope you can, it might be best not to hijack other people’s accounts and openly let everyone know. I don’t know the exact reason for your banning but that alone would easily be sufficient.
So if you return here, try to be nice and have open ears and an open mind to understand. For without seeking mutual understanding there can be very little meaningful dialogue.
May God bless you on the journey and lead you towards the fulness of truth.
Moderator - maybe now is the time to close this thread. Loads of good things have been said by lots of people but since the OP is banned and the original subject has been left far behind maybe it’s time. Or maybe not - I for one have been learning through this thread from everyone’s words. Decisiveness was never a strong point.
I hope through reading everything people have posted you have been able to learn something about the good reasons why Catholics believe as we do and why we would say the Mass is so beautiful and rich. You can disagree with it all, that’s fine, but hopefully you’ve had the grace to listen and learn.
If you return here with another name, and I personally hope you can, it might be best not to hijack other people’s accounts and openly let everyone know. I don’t know the exact reason for your banning but that alone would easily be sufficient.
So if you return here, try to be nice and have open ears and an open mind to understand. For without seeking mutual understanding there can be very little meaningful dialogue.
May God bless you on the journey and lead you towards the fulness of truth.
Moderator - maybe now is the time to close this thread. Loads of good things have been said by lots of people but since the OP is banned and the original subject has been left far behind maybe it’s time. Or maybe not - I for one have been learning through this thread from everyone’s words. Decisiveness was never a strong point.
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Jody60
Guest
Yeah, yeah… crossing the river Tiber to Rome.
As for me… I prefer crossing the river Jourdan… to “Glory”.
- Status