The Masturbation Journal. Continued.

[CentralFLJames]

You use the term “objective” several times, yet you don’t state how masturbation is “objectively” wrong or evil. Just because it’s the Church saying so isn’t an explanation. Nor is the implied logic that “because it feels good and isn’ harming anyone, it must be wrong”.

This is not a debate - this is Catholic teaching.

There is plenty of scriptural and historical support for this as always being the Christian teaching.

If you don’t like it take it up with Jesus on your day of judgement.

James

 

[TedDC]

l did not make the highlighted statement. As for the reasons why it’s wrong, you need to refer to a source other than yourself. Even secularists do not believe that we just invent our own ethics. Secular humanists – as maligned as they often are – actually do ground their ethics in community and tradition, not just their subjective psyches.

Catholic theology & philosophy provide the framework for why the activity is objectively wrong. Read up on it. It has to do with the purpose of sex, which is outward, not inward. It is a complete distortion of the relational purpose of sex. The fact that such a relational purpose is also pleasurable when shared, benefits the biology of the situation (ongoing reproduction of the species). It is a gift to be enjoyed in its legitimate powerful context, not out of context.

And when I’m in a state of sin, I can’t see my sin very objectively. Being in a state of grace illumines and focuses the lens of the soul.

I have read up on it, and all I see is assertions without foundation except for claims that they come from God; for example, as regards the purpose of sex. Obviously sex has a natural purpose of reproduction, but how does that exclude any other purpose? How does the solitary use of sex for pleasure diminish its reproductive role if it’s being used by a single person, since it’s not substituting for reproductive sex?

 

[TedDC]

This is not a debate - this is Catholic teaching.

There is plenty of scriptural and historical support for this as always being the Christian teaching.

If you don’t like it take it up with Jesus on your day of judgement.

James

I do understand that it is Catholic teaching. What I’m seeking is some justification for that teaching - some reasoning beyond “Because the Church told me to think this way”.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Posts 22 and 23:

There is not the time nor cyber-space to get you caught up in essential Catholic philosophy, which is the grounding for Catholic moral theology. And it would be boring for others on this thread, including probably the OP who did not start it as a debate. (I hope.)

And as for the OP, again I think it would be better not to keep a “journal” even online or imaginatively, let alone on paper. That’s just again what I’ve heard and read from professionals in the fields of both religion and psychology. This has also been brought up by posters formerly addicted to the habit. I wish there were a Stickie at the top of the Moral Theology forum which lists some of the non-controversial (non-debated) strategies people have used (and posted about) to liberate themselves from the habit, though it can take time. And then people can refer to such a list first, before starting yet another thread. This is not to knock the OP, but again to acknowledge that these threads are opportunities for others to come along and cast doubt on the immorality of it, and further confuse and/or confirm posters in need of assistance.

Best counterattacks:

Don’t be alone – be out with others and outside if possible.

Put a blocker on all porn sites on your computer.

Get an accountability partner IRL – not a cyber-partner.

Imagine Jesus in the room with you; you may change your attitude about how “harmless” and “not sinful” it is. If it’s so harmless and so not embarrasing (I’m speaking to other posters now), you should have no problem being semi-“public” about it.

Imagine a real-life girlfriend in the room with you. Would you do that in front of her? Would she be genuinely turned on? (Most would not.)

Go to confession once a week, even if you have not failed, just for the grace of the sacrament, to strengthen your resolve & keep you grounded.

Go to adoration/exposition. Jason Evert said that when he was trying to wean himself from his porn addiction, he would go to adoration, and the purity of the white host, contrasted with the impurity of his acts, was a startling & effective contrast.

Try to stop focusing on it, period. Get busy. Get prayerful. Get involved with friends. Have fewer occasions for it.

 

[Captain_America]

Firstly masturbation never delivers what it promises, in your mind it will always be so good but that actual thing isn’t as good as you imagined it to be. You need to realise that you don’t actually wnat to do it, it won’t be as good as you think it will be. Satan is full of empty promises this is a big one.

I have no doubt that it is a serious sin because of what it does to the way you view women and men. The effects of masturbation do not end when the masturbation ends, I’m certian masturbation changes your view of women and men, it degrades both sexes turning them into objects, instead of people made in the image of God. The effects can last for weeks after mastubation. There are very few sins that I think harm so many people.

A good bit of wisdom here. It never satisfies, but lessens you.

 

[OraLabora]

Posts 22 and 23:

Best counterattacks:

Don’t be alone – be out with others and outside if possible.

Put a blocker on all porn sites on your computer.

Get an accountability partner IRL – not a cyber-partner.

Imagine Jesus in the room with you; you may change your attitude about how “harmless” and “not sinful” it is. If it’s so harmless and so not embarrasing (I’m speaking to other posters now), you should have no problem being semi-“public” about it.

Imagine a real-life girlfriend in the room with you. Would you do that in front of her? Would she be genuinely turned on? (Most would not.)

Go to confession once a week, even if you have not failed, just for the grace of the sacrament, to strengthen your resolve & keep you grounded.

Go to adoration/exposition. Jason Evert said that when he was trying to wean himself from his porn addiction, he would go to adoration, and the purity of the white host, contrasted with the impurity of his acts, was a startling & effective contrast.

Try to stop focusing on it, period. Get busy. Get prayerful. Get involved with friends. Have fewer occasions for it.

All excellent points. I would add, from my experience and perspective: pray the Liturgy of the Hours if you can fit it around your work/study day. It adds structure to your day, and it breaks down the day into bite-sized chunks. You can set your goals to be much more manageable: “Lord, let me just make until Vespers… Lord, let me just make until Compline…”. Also, at Compline, there is a moment to examine the day and your conscience. Use it to maximum effect. Go through your day hour-by-hour. Don’t just focus on the M sin… I am often surprised at the other small ways I fall short: putting off an unpleasant task, laziness, a cross word with my spouse, etc. Make an honest assessment of your day and then use one of the penitential rites, as called for in the liturgy, to carry you over until you can make it to confession.

Another excellent suggestion is to find other ways to vent your physical frustration, healthy ways. By this I mean vigorous exercise. I took up road biking again after many years. I rode 3000 km last summer. Believe me after a 100 km ride (62 miles), you probably won’t have the energy left to masturbate! It’s also a great way to exteriorize anger in a healthy, safe manner.

 

[TedDC]

A good bit of wisdom here. It never satisfies, but lessens you.

How so?

 

[Elizabeth502]

^By transferring an expression of mature adult love into one of self-adulation. When we make ourselves artificially the center of the universe, we demean ourselves. When we appropriate to ourselves something meant for others, we lower ourselves.

,by getting into a habit of putting Me First

…by not practicing restraint, moderation, the other virtues

…by being a slave to our immediate physical gratifications. It’s like the person who goes to the buffet table at the beginning of a festive meal, finds first a dessert he likes, cuts off a huge chunk for himself, devours it ahead of even the main course, due to lack of discipline combined with impatience.

…or like the person who is given a gift certificate For Two, to some event or for some occasion, like a meal, to use when the occasion merits it, and instead he decides to redeem the certificate early, just on himself.

…And by transferring the object of affection to self, it has been reported by lots of men on CAF and off CAF, that it can make it more difficult to make love to one’s wife later in a true self-giving way. (You’re used to getting your way, impatiently.) There’s a fair amount of delayed gratification necessary in the marital bond.

 

[TedDC]

Your replies reflect judgments about the motivations of someone who masturbates - judgments which may or may not be true in each case. I think a lot of people have preconceived notions about why it’s done, and I can tell you they are not always correct.

^By transferring an expression of mature adult love into one of self-adulation. When we make ourselves artificially the center of the universe, we demean ourselves. When we appropriate to ourselves something meant for others, we lower ourselves.

How do you know that sexual pleasure is exclusively meant for others? That certainly is one purpose, but it doesn’t rule out others.

In some cases, people who masturbate do it out of intense loneliness, due to rejection by others. They would like nothing more than to have a relationship with another person.

,by getting into a habit of putting Me First

Again, you’re making assumptions without a basis for doing so. In the case of a single person, who is taking second place behind “me”?

…by not practicing restraint, moderation, the other virtues

It is possible to masturbate in moderation, just as it is possible to eat, drink or watch TV in moderation.

…by being a slave to our immediate physical gratifications. It’s like the person who goes to the buffet table at the beginning of a festive meal, finds first a dessert he likes, cuts off a huge chunk for himself, devours it ahead of even the main course, due to lack of discipline combined with impatience.

Again, you’re implying something about motivation that isn’t true in all cases. At least some people who masturbate have an strong desire for a conventional relationship, but are unable to have one. And in your buffet analogy, the behaviour is unlikely to be considered a mortal sin.

…or like the person who is given a gift certificate For Two, to some event or for some occasion, like a meal, to use when the occasion merits it, and instead he decides to redeem the certificate early, just on himself.

Hardly a mortal sin. And suppose the person wants to share the meal with someone else, but has no takers?

…And by transferring the object of affection to self, it has been reported by lots of men on CAF and off CAF, that it can make it more difficult to make love to one’s wife later in a true self-giving way. (You’re used to getting your way, impatiently.) There’s a fair amount of delayed gratification necessary in the marital bond.

Again, you’re misunderstanding motives. In some cases masturbation has nothing to do with transferring affection to oneself. I fully agree that it can be a serious problem (or a symptom of a problem) in a marriage, a single, unattached person is not depriving anyone else of anything; there’s quite simply no one to deprive.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

From the Catechism on the vatican website

By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

From Persona Humana

The traditional Catholic doctrine that masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder is often called into doubt or expressly denied today. It is said that psychology and sociology show that it is a normal phenomenon of sexual development, especially among the young. It is stated that there is real and serious fault only in the measure that the subject deliberately indulges in solitary pleasure closed in on self (“ipsation”), because in this case the act would indeed be radically opposed to the loving communion between persons of different sex which some hold is what is principally sought in the use of the sexual faculty.

This opinion is contradictory to the teaching and pastoral practice of the Catholic Church. Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Church - in the course of a constant tradition - and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act.[19] The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. For it lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes “the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love.”[20] All deliberate exercise of sexuality must be reserved to this regular relationship. Even if it cannot be proved that Scripture condemns this sin by name, the tradition of the Church has rightly understood it to be condemned in the New Testament when the latter speaks of “impurity,” “unchasteness” and other vices contrary to chastity and continence.

Bold is mine.

Okay everyone, it’s time to explain why you know more than the Lord’s church and why the Christians have been wrong for about 1970 years (Not including for how long the Jews condemmed it)

 

[TedDC]

From the Catechism on the vatican website

From Persona Humana

Bold is mine.

Okay everyone, it’s time to explain why you know more than the Lord’s church and why the Christians have been wrong for about 1970 years (Not including for how long the Jews condemmed it)

All of that merely says “It’s wrong because we, the Church, say that it’s wrong”.

What I’m asking is why it’s wrong. Sure, the Church says it’s against the “moral order” - but that’s a circular reference - the Church itself is defining what the “moral order” is, then saying what does or doesn’t violate it.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

The Church was founded by the apostles and has the Lord backing it up, so it’s authority is enough for me. As for why it’s wrong without referencing that, it’s wrong because it’s a gross misuse of what it was intended for. It is like turning eating in to gluttony.

 

[TedDC]

The Church was founded by the apostles and has the Lord backing it up, so it’s authority is enough for me.

That’s an honest answer - you have every right to your faith.

As for why it’s wrong without referencing that, it’s wrong because it’s a gross misuse of what it was intended for. It is like turning eating in to gluttony.

How to you know what sex was exclusively intended for? As I mentioned earlier, the same analogy could be used to condemn eating a snack just because it tastes good, if I define the “intended” purpose of eating as “obtaining required nutrition”.

 

[Timbothefiveth]

How to you know what sex was exclusively intended for? As I mentioned earlier, the same analogy could be used to condemn eating a snack just because it tastes good, if I define the “intended” purpose of eating as “obtaining required nutrition”.

It doesn’t take away a purpose to eat a snack for said reason. Taking away the purpose would be eating the snack after processing it to make sure it contains no nutrition.

 

[TedDC]

It doesn’t take away a purpose to eat a snack for said reason. Taking away the purpose would be eating the snack after processing it to make sure it contains no nutrition.

How about a zero-calorie soft drink or candy? Absolutely no vitamins, minerals, protein, carbs - nothing nutritious, just pure pleasure.

Or how about smoking a cigarette? Clearly a gross misuse of our lungs, and unlike masturbation, it causes demonstrable harm to the body. Why isn’t that a mortal sin?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Your replies reflect judgments about the motivations of someone who masturbates - judgments which may or may not be true in each case. I think a lot of people have preconceived notions about why it’s done, and I can tell you they are not always correct.

And the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. What a crock that is.

In some cases, people who masturbate do it out of intense loneliness, due to rejection by others. They would like nothing more than to have a relationship with another person.

I completely agree with that point, but that doesn’t excuse it; it explains it. It is like taking a drug for loneliness. It’s temporarily palliative; that’s all it is. And in taking such a “drug,” we demean ourselves.

Again, you’re making assumptions without a basis for doing so. In the case of a single person, who is taking second place behind “me”?

A potential wonderful spouse, who expects more from you than self-pleasuring.

It is possible to masturbate in moderation, just as it is possible to eat, drink or watch TV in moderation.

Another convenient excuse. (“I only robbed once, Your Honor. I was moderate in breaking the law.”)

 

[CentralFLJames]

I do understand that it is Catholic teaching. What I’m seeking is some justification for that teaching - some reasoning beyond “Because the Church told me to think this way”.

You are in the wrong thread and are doing everything in your power to carve out space for debate on matters that are already taught as well vetted Catholic morality that is consistent with everything that was handed down to us from the apostles and Christ’s teaching.

We are not here to debate or justify to you the underlying spiritual and moral reasons why these are the teachings. If you want that go start your own thread somewhere and see if you get anyone interested in a contest of debate with you or see if you get anyone to play in your sandbox with you. This is not a contest of wits. The Catechism is simply not open for debate and you can’t invent your own rules based on what YOU personally want them to be. While Catholics are permitted to vet the intellectual reasoning behind the doctrines and teachings we are called to trust the Church’s wisdom and guarantee of guidance by the Holy Spirit in these matters. You are trying to elevate yourself above the church with no obvious signs of any superior pedigree. You are also trying to claim special one-off exceptions or outlier condition(s) that give YOU a reason to have a special condition or exception for when its “OK”. But morality doesn’t work that way. You are not different than anyone else and there is no concept of a hiearchy of morality where one can use what ostensibly may seem through disordered reasoning to be a less-evil to get around a greater evil (e.g. “I masturbated so I would not fornicate with my neighbor’s wife or anyone else I lusted after”) or to “feel good” about being lonely etc. Get over it – the line of reasoning you put forth sounds like a teenager who is whining that he won’t live a single day more if he doesn’t get his pleasure fix.

Masturbation is often associated with hubris and a need to feel in control or self sufficient (and is often a mask for low self esteem too). That itself is reason to see that its disordered - it puts self needs and pleasure above all else to make the human body a biological hormone pump to “do it yourself” pleasure. Yes there are real chemical-hormonal addictions and only God’s grace can break them.

I’d recommend that instead of looking for wiggle room to debate Catholic teaching that you “be a man” and get control of your own passions and your own disordered thinking. Stop trying to be in control and stop looking for ways to game the catechism to bend it to your own desires. I note that “the liberal mind” always looks to the rare special and unique outlier cases that few fit into to chip away at orthodoxy. Once people buy into it they then shift to generalize to whole cloth rejection of orthodox teaching to use the outlier exceptions to reshape the norms. And this is YOUR pattern here my friend. Be honest with yourself at least and see it.

If you have a habit of masturbation you will find that it is impossible to get control of this disorder without God’s help. Even a sexually impotent person will find a way to simulate it in the mind or through fantasies. But when one comes to realize that it is also a spiritual disorder and then cooperates with God’s grace to beat it one then KNOWS that it was God who did it - and that it is He who is at work in you. This can be a very powerful realization and start of a whole new postive maturing in the faith. Challenges with masturbation and sexual urges are often a first test of a young Christians resolve to trust God and rely on His grace to overcome the disorders and to make the body a pure temple of the Lord where the whole person is in control of his facilities with God’s help. Thus the person who overcomes these urges can attain very high levels of happiness and confidence that God is listening and helping - a real physical example of God at work in a person.

Let me say that one of the very reasons that God often permits people to fall into this disordered conduct is because its a consequence to hubris and pride (also grave sins). **Can you think of anything more humiliating than to not have control over one’s own passions and bodily urges? ** That thought should really ring some bells. How much in control is a person who can’t control his own passions and urges? Many in contemporary times completely lack self-restraint and self-discipline - these seem to be forgotten things in these modern times of “if it feels good do it”. Think about it. Is it rational to want to debate The Church’s morality and teach us what “should be” permitted behavior at the same time YOU seem to lack even control of your OWN bodily urges? So why do you think that anyone should listen to a person who seems to imply or admit he can’t control his own disordered passions and judge what is right or wrong for the entire Church?

Clearly, you just seem to want to be your own magisterium and make up your own personal rules in a sort of Cafeteria-Catholicism.

For the record - masturbation can be stopped fast by finding self-denial, self-discipline, self-respect, self-dignity and with lots of prayer and even fasting. A person who really wants to stop can do so FAST. What keeps a person from going back is remembering how hard it was to break the habit and to recollect how “out of control” and “helpless” one felt in caving into in the first place. I know of habitual life long masturbators who stopped in a week after they: went to confession, prayed daily for 20-30 minutes of quality time and took some reasonable precautions (e.g. not overeating/drinking, not exposing themselves to their own naked image in the mirror, getting off the Internet sites that have explicit content and not being idle at work or at home alone and bored too often).

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

How about a zero-calorie soft drink or candy? Absolutely no vitamins, minerals, protein, carbs - nothing nutritious, just pure pleasure.

Or how about smoking a cigarette? Clearly a gross misuse of our lungs, and unlike masturbation, it causes demonstrable harm to the body. Why isn’t that a mortal sin?

How about taking in too much rhetoric and wasting time?
One of the seven Capital sins is Sloth.

James

 

[Pfeffer102]

Sorry I helped get us off track but this thread isn’t supposed to be about whether masturbation is sin. Dan started this thread as a continuation of his journal of attempts to quit doing it. There are plenty of other threads about how/why/if it’s a sin.

Aww, that means a lot to me! One, because you know my actual name and didn’t call me “Pfeffer” so it tells me you actually read my other thread, and two, because you’re trying to keep it on track. That’s swell.

There is not the time nor cyber-space to get you caught up in essential Catholic philosophy, which is the grounding for Catholic moral theology. And it would be boring for others on this thread, including probably the OP who did not start it as a debate. (I hope.)

Nope! But it’s sort of going that way, isn’t it? I am interested in that smoking thing though. Smoking should 100% sure be a mortal sin, too; it’s doing *deliberate *damage to your body, and there are no benefits from it. It’s…basically killing yourself. So why isn’t that a mortal sin? Because cigarettes weren’t in the Old Testament, so they couldn’t specifically say that smoking was wrong?
Actually…Yes! That’s probably right! And that’s just dumb. Smokers get away with it just because “everyone else is doing it,” why don’t other mortal sinners?

Put a blocker on all porn sites on your computer.

People just love to assume, don’t they?
I am not now, nor have I ever, been into porn. It’s sick.
(I know you were just suggesting, so thanks, but I’m just saying, for the record.)

Imagine a real-life girlfriend in the room with you.

Haha, you didn’t read my last thread, did you, Elizabeth?
I just thought that’d be a funny quote to bring up.

Okay everyone, it’s time to explain why you know more than the Lord’s church and why the Christians have been wrong for about 1970 years (Not including for how long the Jews condemmed it)

Haha, I’ve tried, but have gotten nowhere.

How about taking in too much rhetoric and wasting time?
One of the seven Capital sins is Sloth.

Jeeeeez, everything’s a mortal sin! I’d be surprised if Mother Theresa even got right into heaven! Bad joke? Probably…
Mortal sin? Possibly…

And as for the OP, again I think it would be better not to keep a “journal” even online or imaginatively, let alone on paper. That’s just again what I’ve heard and read from professionals in the fields of both religion and psychology.

Hah! Whatever you say, whatever you say…day 30!
So, hooray, this day marks a freaking (excuse my language, I’m a wild teenager) MONTH since I’ve last m-worded!
Anyway, today wasn’t too bad. It was Sunday, but it’s Monday now. I’m just tired. The urges to do it haven’t stopped. So I’m kind of disappointed in that. Some said it takes 21 days to break a habit, some said a month…And if I don’t stop wanting to soon, I’m gonna break. And I hope I don’t. I hate to say this, I really do…But…I’ll just be honest, because I have nothing to hide from you people…I hope I break. I really want to break. And that tells you how much I’m not over the addiction. I *did *stop cold turkey though, I’d say I’m doing pretty well myself. Yeah, the day I found out it was mortal…I just…stopped. Tearing me apart, but I stopped. Sort of like a SMOKER that doesn’t get his CIGARETTE. Tch. That’s such a dumb not-mortal-sin. But luckily, cigs weren’t around back then, so they get away with it.
Oh. Back on topic.
I do want to break, but I have to remember, I’m not doing it just for me. This is for God. This is for this community. This is to prove to myself that I *can *do it.
Even though, I’m never going to experience that feeling again in my life if I want to stay mortal sin-free, and I mean NEVER.
Gosh, gosh, gosh.
This was long.
Tune in next time for another exciting jumble of words.
And thanks for reading, for those of you who didn’t just skip down to these last few lines, just hoping to be able to catch the gist of what I was saying over those last two paragraphs, just from reading these last couple lines.
It means a lot.

-Dan

 

[Bbigam]

Aww, that means a lot to me! One, because you know my actual name and didn’t call me “Pfeffer” so it tells me you actually read my other thread, and two, because you’re trying to keep it on track. That’s swell.

Hey, no problem!

Hah! Whatever you say, whatever you say…day 30!
So, hooray, this day marks a freaking (excuse my language, I’m a wild teenager) MONTH since I’ve last m-worded!
Anyway, today wasn’t too bad. It was Sunday, but it’s Monday now. I’m just tired. The urges to do it haven’t stopped. So I’m kind of disappointed in that. Some said it takes 21 days to break a habit, some said a month…And if I don’t stop wanting to soon, I’m gonna break. And I hope I don’t. I hate to say this, I really do…But…I’ll just be honest, because I have nothing to hide from you people…I hope I break. I really want to break. And that tells you how much I’m not over the addiction. I *did *stop cold turkey though, I’d say I’m doing pretty well myself. Yeah, the day I found out it was mortal…I just…stopped. Tearing me apart, but I stopped. Sort of like a SMOKER that doesn’t get his CIGARETTE. Tch. That’s such a dumb not-mortal-sin. But luckily, cigs weren’t around back then, so they get away with it.
Oh. Back on topic.
I do want to break, but I have to remember, I’m not doing it just for me. This is for God. This is for this community. This is to prove to myself that I *can *do it.
Even though, I’m never going to experience that feeling again in my life if I want to stay mortal sin-free, and I mean NEVER.
Gosh, gosh, gosh.
This was long.
Tune in next time for another exciting jumble of words.
And thanks for reading, for those of you who didn’t just skip down to these last few lines, just hoping to be able to catch the gist of what I was saying over those last two paragraphs, just from reading these last couple lines.
It means a lot.

-Dan

Of course you want to break! Sometimes I do too. That’s the power of sin and addiction. Great job with the reminder that this is for God and for the community! It’s easy to slip into thinking it’s just for me.
By the way, I will be at 2 months on Friday! (Started on All Saints Day, seemed like a good time.)
Keep it up!