The Missing Passover

[qui_est_ce]

Regarding Jesus being touched by the woman at the Last Supper, yes, this is radical. Jesus touched untouchables-lepers, hemorrhaging women. He ate with tax-collectors. He took meals without Ritual washing.

 

[Reuben_J]

You are accusing Jesus with having broken the Law, when you say that he transgressed the Sabbath, which is the fourth commandment of the Law. Since sin is the transgression of the Law, you can no longer say that Jesus was without sin. That’s progress among Catholics. Congratulations!

Beside healing the sicks and feeding the hungry on the Sabbath he also blaspemied by indicating that he is God. That was why you crucified him.

I have given you Acts chapter 4. It is not so much what you say now but nothing you say can stop the truth and the wonders that people hear and see. And they believe and know that He is God.

 

[TracyJ]

TracyJ;5101097:

Ben Masada;5098609:

TracyJ;5098249:

There’s been so many horrible things done by Christians to Jewish people that I can
well understand your frustration. BUT…
I personally don’t understand why a person would bother with religion if it didn’t offer
some comfort in the form of a life after death.

That’s conditional faith. What kind of merit there is in serving God with an eye in comfortable life after death? We serve God without any preconditions. You remind me of Paul who would serve God only if the dead resurrected, as he said, that if the dead won’t resurrect, let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die. That’s typical conditional faith. (I Cor. 15:32) That’s Christian; not Jewish.

And why do Jewish people worry about
people praying for them after death if they don’t figure that they’re going to be somewhere
where they could use the prayers?

**We don’t worry about anything. Only to serve God through obedience to the Law. Prayers after death are a waste of time.

Ben**

I definitely need to get something out of it if I’m to practice my faith.
Maybe you’re right, maybe I’ve put a condition on things, that’s sounds like me so I’m
not uncomfortable with it.
As for the prayers after death, your interpretation is not what I’ve heard, I read Potok’s book
where a very devout Jewish father who referred to his son as “that who will pray for me when I’m dead”.
And isn’t there a prayer called The Kaddish" and don’t you need a minyan when a Jewish
person dies? Why all that if what you say is correct?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Missing Passover

We are starting Passover here in Israel. But since the wheels of the Truth cannot stop rolling, I want to bring to your attention the Passover of the year 30 CE. It was supposed to be the last one that Jesus would partake of, and he missed it.

According to John 19:31, that Sabbath was a solemn Sabbath, which is what we call in Hebrew a Shabbaton. That’s when a festival falls on the Sabbath. The KJV brings: “For that Sabbath day was a high day.”

That Sabbath was the 14th of the month of Nissan; the first day of Passover. The beginning of it is celebrated with the Passover Supper at the evening of the previous day, being that year on Friday. That’s what we call the Seder Meal.

In the year 30 CE, the Passover Supper was held on the evening of that Friday. No wonder, everyone somehow connected with the events taking place on the Calvary that day, had to leave it in a hurry to prepare themselves and their houses for the Passover Supper.

Jesus missed that Passover Supper because he was on the cross, and soon afterwards, in the tomb. But then again, how to understand that he celebrated his Passover Supper on the evening of Thursday, which was the 13th of Nissan? He didn’t. In Israel, no Jew would celebrate Passover in a different day alone or in a small group when everyone else would be doing it next day.

This discrepancy is perhaps due to the fact that the gospel writer, writing somehwere in the world, and realizing that the Jews in the Diaspora would celebrate every festival in two days, thought he could have Jesus celebrate the Passover Supper on the 13 of Nissan. It would have worked if Jesus was a Diaspora Jew; but in Israel there is no such a thing.

There is an option in Judaism to celebrate the Passover later, even a month later, if the person was not for some reason ready for it; but NEVER before. It means that, definitely, Jesus missed that Passover celebration, because his reported “Last Supper” did not have anything to do with the Passover Supper.

The gospel writer had either no idea what he was writing about or simply thought we would never find out about his blunder.

Ben

Of course, most know, the Seder meal was being celebrated during the days of our Lord coming to His hour. I wish to go a little more in-depth with the correlation, as I wish to demonstrate there were changes in the Seder meal and the Last Supper, instituted by our Lord.

The Passover meal was part of the covenant from God and men. It required an active participation. In reading Exodus 12:17, we see this was to be done perpetually, for ever. To reject the Last Supper as the adjustment to, or replacement of, or more specifically a fulfillment of, the covenant command of God, means we should still be celebrating the Passover meal as prescribed by God.

We know from Jeremiah 31:31, a new covenant was prophesied. This prophesy was brought to mind in the New Testament, in a letter from St. Paul to the Hebrews 8:7 – 12.

The prescription of the Passover meal was detailed and clear from the Lord, as written in Exodus 12.

A lamb without blemish was to be slaughtered at twilight, eaten with unleavened bread, the lamb’s blood was to be sprinkled on the doorposts with hyssop, none of the lamb’s bones were to be broken, and this ordinance was to be celebrated perpetually.

The Jewish Passover meal consisted of:

1. The Festival Blessing – Drink from the 1st cup of wine.
2. Passover Narrative and Little Hallel (Psalms 113) – Drink from 2nd cup of wine.
3. Main Meal: roasted lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs and spices – Drink from 3rd cup of wine.
4. Great Hallel (Psalms 114 – 118) and the drinking of the 4th cup of wine, and closed when presiding priest or host says the phrase, “TEL TELESTI” which is interpreted as “It is finished” or “It is consummated”.

Now let’s look at the Lord’s Supper that occurred during the celebration of the Passover, or Seder, meal.

3 of the Gospel authors told us about the Lord’s Supper, as Bro. Christopher pointed out. Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote about it. All 3 say He gave the cup, of the new covenant, to the Apostles and told them to drink, but it does not tell us that Christ, the High Priest, drank of the cup. Matthew 26:29, Mark 14:25 and Luke 22:18, tells us that, during the Passover meal, Christ announced He would not drink fruit of the vine again, until he drank it in the Kingdom of God. After making this announcement, Matthew 26:30 and Mark 14:26 tell us, “Then, after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.” After singing a hymn, the great Hallel, they went out to the garden, without the High Priest closing the celebration, not only not closing the celebration, but declaring He would not drink fruit of the vine again, until He drank it in the Kingdom of God. He did not say, “It is finished” or “It is consummated”.
In the garden, our Lord prayed to the father to let this cup be passed from Him, if it was the Father’s will. Matthew 22:44 tells us that Christ prayed this 3 times. What cup was Christ praying be passed from Him? I believe it was the 4th cup that closed the Passover meal, which was fulfilled with the Lord’s Supper.

When God made the covenant with Moses, Moses asked who to tell had told him of the covenant, Exodus 3:13 – 14. God told Moses, “I am, who I am.”

When Christ was arrested in the garden, He asked who they were looking for and they replied, “Jesus of Nazareth”. In John 18:5, Jesus told them, “I AM he”. When those arresting Him heard this, they went backward and fell to the ground (John 18:6).

Mark 15:22 – 24 told us that Christ was offered wine drugged with myrrh, but He did not drink it.

John 19:28 – 30 explains that Our Lord, aware that everything was now finished, in order that scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst”. Hearing this, they took a sponge and dipped it in common wine, sour wine, fruit of the vine, and held it up to His mouth with hyssop. After taking the wine, our Lord said, “It is finished”, bowed His head and gave up the spirit.

John 19:33 – 38 told us that our Lord’s legs were not broken, so that scripture might be fulfilled.

Mark 15:33 – 34 tells us the time the Lamb of God death, which was twilight, the same time Moses was instructed to slaughter the sacrificial lamb.

Christ came to fulfill the law, and it was fulfilled with the new covenant. A covenant of God and men, that requires participation of those being set free.

(I copied and pasted this from material I had prepared for a debate I participated in with a Protestant. Christ clearly did not miss the Passover, Christ fulfilled the passover.)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Jer 31:31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things. As it was answered to Moses, when he was to finish the tabernacle: See (saith he) that thou make all things according to the pattern which was shewn thee on the mount.
Heb 8:6 But now he hath obtained a better ministry, by how much also he is a mediator of a better testament which is established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that former had been faultless, there should not indeed a place have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 For, finding fault with them, he saith: Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord: and I will perfect, unto the house of Israel and unto the house of Juda, a new testament:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the testament which I made to their fathers, on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt: because they continued not in my testament: and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my laws into their mind: and in their heart will I write them. And I will be their God: and they shall be my people.
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord. For all shall know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
Heb 8:12 Because I will be merciful to their iniquities: and their sins I will remember no more.
Heb 8:13 Now in saying a new, he hath made the former old. And that which decayeth and groweth old is near its end.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Regarding Jesus being touched by the woman at the Last Supper, yes, this is radical. Jesus touched untouchables-lepers, hemorrhaging women. He ate with tax-collectors. He took meals without Ritual washing.

What is this supposed to mean, that he was not Jewish? I always thought we have been talking about two different people.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben Masada;5102191:

TracyJ;5101097:

Ben Masada;5098609:

I definitely need to get something out of it if I’m to practice my faith.
Maybe you’re right, maybe I’ve put a condition on things, that’s sounds like me so I’m
not uncomfortable with it.
As for the prayers after death, your interpretation is not what I’ve heard, I read Potok’s book
where a very devout Jewish father who referred to his son as “that who will pray for me when I’m dead”.
And isn’t there a prayer called The Kaddish" and don’t you need a minyan when a Jewish
person dies? Why all that if what you say is correct?

If you ever have a chance to meet a Rabbi, ask him if Kaddish is a prayer for the dead. Kaddish was never meant to be a prayer for the dead, but a confession of loyalty to God who is our Lord from birth till death. Jews don’t pray for the dead.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Beside healing the sicks and feeding the hungry on the Sabbath he also blaspemied by indicating that he is God. That was why you crucified him.

I have given you Acts chapter 4. It is not so much what you say now but nothing you say can stop the truth and the wonders that people hear and see. And they believe and know that He is God.

Take a look at Isaiah 8:20. That’s the test to prove any truth claimer. I have tested the truth you preach and there is no light in it. Greek Mythology cannot fit within Judaism. Jesus was Jewish and not a Greek demigod. I am sorry.

 

[wolfgang]

:coffeeread:

 

[Reuben_J]

Take a look at Isaiah 8:20. That’s the test to prove any truth claimer. I have tested the truth you preach and there is no light in it. Greek Mythology cannot fit within Judaism. Jesus was Jewish and not a Greek demigod. I am sorry.

I have given you Acts chapter 4. It is not so much what you say now but nothing you say can stop the truth and the wonders that people hear and see. And they believe and know that He is God.

And until you have something new, I am also going for my coffee now.

 

[BRIT72]

I didn’t find any credible sources. Just Rapture stuff. I did find this:

newadvent.org/fathers/1602278.htm

It’s still confusing. And I’ll have to study it more.

If by credible you mean, because they were prostestant sites you wont read it , I’m afraid you wont find the answer you are looking for.
The Bible teaches two sabbaths that week, so you don’t even need to look anywhere else anyway.

 

[BRIT72]

TracyJ;5103816:

Ben Masada;5102191:

TracyJ;5101097:

If you ever have a chance to meet a Rabbi, ask him if Kaddish is a prayer for the dead. Kaddish was never meant to be a prayer for the dead, but a confession of loyalty to God who is our Lord from birth till death. Jews don’t pray for the dead.

That’s because no-one is supposed to pray for the dead.

That should be a quote from Ben Masada, dont quite know what happened there.

 

[LilyM]

If by credible you mean, because they were prostestant sites you wont read it , I’m afraid you wont find the answer you are looking for.
The Bible teaches two sabbaths that week, so you don’t even need to look anywhere else anyway.

Uh no. There may have been a week with Passover and Sabbath occurring on different days (in fact most years would have been such years), but never a week with two sabbaths.

As for praying for the dead - even the Jewish writers of the books of Maccabees disagree with you and Ben. ‘It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins’. (2 Maccabees 12:46).

And every observant Jew honours the truth of Maccabees by celebrating the festival of Hanukkah for starters - based on events recounted in the particular book that I’ve quoted.

 

[BRIT72]

Uh no. There may have been a week with Passover and Sabbath occurring on different days (in fact most years would have been such years), but never a week with two sabbaths.

As for praying for the dead - even the Jewish writers of the books of Maccabees disagree with you and Ben. ‘It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins’. (2 Maccabees 12:46).

And every observant Jew honours the truth of Maccabees by celebrating the festival of Hanukkah - based on the events of those particular books of scripture.

The day before passover is a preparation day, just as Friday is to the sabbath.

The book of maccabees should not be read as Scripture, it isn’t Scripture.

I dont know if Hanukkah is mentioned in maccabees, but so what if it is, there are many writings that contain history, but that doesn’t make all writings Scripture.

 

[LilyM]

The day before passover is a preparation day, just as Friday is to the sabbath.

Still doesn’t mean that either Passover or its Day of Preparation IS a Sabbath - any more than a Friday IS a Sabbath. Each week, including the week of Passover, still has only ONE Sabbath and never, as you stated, TWO Sabbaths. Get your facts straight if you expect to be listened to.

I dont know if Hanukkah is mentioned in maccabees, but so what if it is, there are many writings that contain history, but that doesn’t make all writings Scripture.

It’s not scripture but its events nonetheless form the base of one of the biggest religious festivals in the Jewish calendar? That’s like a Jew saying ‘hey, I don’t believe the Gospels are scripture but I’m still going to celebrate Christmas anyways, since it’s a historical fact that Christ was born’.

Jews don’t celebrate Christmas in spite of its undoubted historical basis, and we don’t, by the same token, celebrate Hanukkah in spite of its undoubted historical basis, any more than either Jews or Christians celebrate Muhammad’s Hajj (journey to Mecca) although that undoubtedly happened as well.

The event has no significance except as a point of religious faith, and in accepting and celebrating the religious festival you’re acknowledging the religious authority of the texts that contain that truth.

 

[BRIT72]

Still doesn’t mean that either Passover or its Day of Preparation IS a Sabbath - any more than a Friday IS a Sabbath. Each week, including the week of Passover, still has only ONE Sabbath and never, as you stated, TWO Sabbaths. Get your facts straight if you expect to be listened to.

It’s not scripture but its events nonetheless form the base of one of the biggest religious festivals in the Jewish calendar? That’s like a Jew saying ‘hey, I don’t believe the Gospels are scripture but I’m still going to celebrate Christmas anyways, since it’s a historical fact that Christ was born’.

Jews don’t celebrate Christmas in spite of its undoubted historical basis, and we don’t, by the same token, celebrate Hanukkah in spite of its undoubted historical basis, any more than either Jews or Christians celebrate Muhammad’s Hajj (journey to Mecca) although that undoubtedly happened as well.

The event has no significance except as a point of religious faith, and in accepting and celebrating the religious festival you’re acknowledging the religious authority of the texts that contain that truth.

Firstly, calm down!
You have a point about the sabbath, but I was meaning the sabbath that week was not the only day of rest. I don’t celebrate the 25th of December, as Scripture does not tell us to and it was an already existing pagan festival. Plus Christ could not have been born in December.

Scripture contains the whole truth, but anything outside of Scripture is a mixture of truth’s and untruth’s.

 

[LilyM]

Firstly, calm down!
You have a point about the sabbath, but I was meaning the sabbath that week was not the only day of rest. I don’t celebrate the 25th of December, as Scripture does not tell us to and it was an already existing pagan festival. Plus Christ could not have been born in December.

Scripture contains the whole truth, but anything outside of Scripture is a mixture of truth’s and untruth’s.

You didn’t say ‘day of rest’, you said Sabbath. Again, you need to use correct terminology if you expect at all to be taken seriously in a debate, since failure to do so is indicative of sloppy thinking.

And I wasn’t referring to 25th of December, but to celebrating the fact of Christ’s birth which is what we do on that date, since we don’t know with any certainty what year, let alone what day, He was born. By the way, if you didn’t know YOUR birthdate - because your birth record was destroyed or what have you - wouldn’t you be honoured if people chose to celebrate your birth on a particular date each year, regardless? And wouldn’t you be upset if they celebrated their own birthdays but ignored yours (but possibly you’re one of those idiots who doesn’t believe in celebrating personal birthdays either)? The very angels celebrated His birth, so should we, even on an arbitrary date if needs be.

Again, Jews don’t, because the event of Christ’s birth has no significance absent a belief in the scriptural authority of the Gospels which give it its meaning. And again, neither Jews nor Christians celebrate the Muslim Hajj because the event has no significance absent a belief in the scriptural authority of the Quran which gives the event of the Hajj ITS meaning. Hannukah too, has no significance as a mere ‘truth’ or mere historical event, which is why we as Christians don’t continue to celebrate it.

 

[BRIT72]

You didn’t say ‘day of rest’, you said Sabbath. Again, you need to use correct terminology if you expect at all to be taken seriously in a debate, since failure to do so is indicative of sloppy thinking.

And I wasn’t referring to 25th of December, but to celebrating the fact of Christ’s birth which is what we do on that date, since we don’t know with any certainty what year, let alone what day, He was born. By the way, if you didn’t know YOUR birthdate - because your birth record was destroyed or what have you - wouldn’t you be honoured if people chose to celebrate your birth on a particular date each year, regardless? And wouldn’t you be upset if they celebrated their own birthdays but ignored yours (but possibly you’re one of those idiots who doesn’t believe in celebrating personal birthdays either)? The very angels celebrated His birth, so should we, even on an arbitrary date if needs be.

Again, Jews don’t, because the event of Christ’s birth has no significance absent a belief in the scriptural authority of the Gospels which give it its meaning. And again, neither Jews nor Christians celebrate the Muslim Hajj because the event has no significance absent a belief in the scriptural authority of the Quran which gives the event of the Hajj ITS meaning. Hannukah too, has no significance as a mere ‘truth’ or mere historical event, which is why we as Christians don’t continue to celebrate it.

All I can say is, I’m sorry if you find my thinking sloppy, if that hurts your feelings.
The angels celebrated the actual day of his birth, not every year, just once.
We are to celebrate the Lord Jesus Christ, every single day.
I don’t want anyone to honour me, I only want Christ my Saviour to be honoured, every day.
Why are you calling me an idiot, that’s not very nice now, is it.
I celebrate my Risen Saviour every day. Yes he was born in a body of flesh and blood, but he died, was buried and is now risen and is seated at the right hand of God the Father.
I thank my Lord every day, that he came down to this earth and died for me.

 

[LilyM]

All I can say is, I’m sorry if you find my thinking sloppy, if that hurts your feelings.
The angels celebrated the actual day of his birth, not every year, just once.
We are to celebrate the Lord Jesus Christ, every single day.
I don’t want anyone to honour me, I only want Christ my Saviour to be honoured, every day.
Why are you calling me an idiot, that’s not very nice now, is it.
I celebrate my Risen Saviour every day. Yes he was born in a body of flesh and blood, but he died, was buried and is now risen and is seated at the right hand of God the Father.
I thank my Lord every day, that he came down to this earth and died for me.

Do you celebrate Easter each year as a special day? Do you celebrate the Sabbath each week as a special day different from all the others? Why, if you remember His death and resurrection every day anyway?

You want God to honour you in heaven, no? You want the angels to rejoice over you because you’re repented your sins, as Jesus says they do? You’d better want it - or you might just get your wish and not even get to heaven let alone being honoured there!

You celebrate your risen and ascended saviour? Well, since it was His BODY - the very same body born on Christmas - that actually rose again in glorified form, that very same body that ascended into Heaven - then you’d better celebrate the birth of that body as well!

It wasn’t mere spirit that died and rose again for us, in fact spirit never dies, so never rises either! Or needs celebration, but flesh and blood and bone. And He expects the events of His life to be commemorated, not just in a general way every day but specially at specific times.

He expects us to remember His Last Supper specially on those occasions when we ‘do this’ (eat and drink in His memory, which isn’t every meal). He expects us to remember His death and resurrection at Easter each year. And He expects us to set aside a day to in a special way remember His birth as well, why not?

 

[BRIT72]

And? Do you celebrate Easter each year?

You want God to honour you in heaven, no? You want the angels to rejoice over you because you’re repented your sins, as Jesus says they do?

You’d better want it - or you might just get your wish and not even get to heaven let alone being honoured there!

You celebrate your risen and ascended saviour? Well, since it was His BODY - the very same body born on Christmas - that actually rose again in glorified form, that very same body that ascended into Heaven - then you’d better celebrate the birth of that body as well!

It wasn’t mere spirit that died and rose again for us, or needs celebration, but flesh and blood and bone.

No, I do not celebrate easter.
I will be in heaven, because the Lord Jesus Christ died to save me.
I would rather all yours and everyone elses praise and worship was directed to him.
We are nowhere told in Scripture to celebrate his birth every year and the only mention of easter is herod celebrated it.
He is Risen.