The Missing Passover

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The problem is that one can be so eager to answer what he thinks to be a “call from above” that he might not think to be prudent enough to see that it’s not a call from God’s adversary himself! Satan can disguise himself into an angel of light, you know…
I was joking when I called Ben “prophet” a few days ago.

Folks, leave this poor soul alone. He may be playing with us, in which case there’s no reason to continue. OTOH, he may be serious.

Mental illness is nothing to joke around with. Let it be. ❤️
 
I’m enjoyed this dialogue and I know little about the topics, but I’ve always been
confused about the prayer that says “he arose again on the THIRD day”
If Jesus died on Friday at three isn’t three days later Monday?
Fri to Sat at 3 = day one
Sat to Sun at 3 - day two
Sun to 3PM Monday- day three.

I have read Asimov’s guide to the NT and he makes some legitimate points.
I see no reason for any arguments, there are things that people accept on Faith.
To me, the NT is to introduce us to Jesus and to give us some guidelines about our
behavior.
But while everything is nice and straight forward suddenly we wind up with John’s acid
trip that makes no sense, or MAYBE the interpreters were tired and failed to do their
job properly.
**Welcome Tracy. The whole issue here is that, in my opinion, the gospel writers were Gentiles with very poor knowledge of Jewish culture and customs. They didn’t know that the Jewish Passover Feast is supposed to be celebrated on the 14th of Nisan, which fell on the evening of Friday that year that Jesus died, and in order not to let Jesus go without his last Passover Supper, they set him with his disciples celebrating it on the 13th of Nisan or Thursday evening, which is against Jewish festival laws. In Judaism one can celebrate the Passover Supper afterwards but never before. It means that it never happened. Jesus’ last supper was a fabrication of the gospel writers, which was written from 75 to 95 CE. Therefore, from 50 to 70 years after Jesus had been gone. The whole problem here is to try to save the NT from this contradiction and no one seems to get anywhere. I hope your contribution will be valuable.

Ben: :)**
 
I answered this for you. Jesus was instituting the new covenant; the real passover lamb, his body. Jesus is Lord and artificier of the Jewish rules. He demonstrated this when the Jews asked him why he breaks the laws of the sabbath, Jesus replies “So that you may know that the Son of Man is Lord over the Sabbath.” Jesus is not celebrating the old covenent passover that God established with Israel. He is celebrating the new covenant passover, the Lamb of God is being substituted for sinners. Jesus can celebrate the passover on whatever day he wishes. He is Lord.

Since Jewish days begin at 6pm, the last supper night is Nisan 14th. Some Jews celebrated on Nisan 15th. The next morning, still Nisan 14, Jesus is crucified at the same time the temple lambs are being slain.

Jesus observed the Passover prior to his crucifixion, at the very beginning of Nisan 14.
 
Since Jewish days begin at 6pm, thursday night is Nisan 14th. Some Jews celebrated on Nisan 15th. The next morning, still Nisan 14, Jesus is crucified at the same time the temple lambs are being slain.

Jesus observed the Passover prior to his crucifixion, at the very beginning of Nisan 14.
 
I was joking when I called Ben “prophet” a few days ago.

Folks, leave this poor soul alone. He may be playing with us, in which case there’s no reason to continue. OTOH, he may be serious.

Mental illness is nothing to joke around with. Let it be. ❤️
**Wow! Is that what you do to gain credibility from your peers? I am sorry for you because you are painting a ridiculous picture of yourself. Everyone can see that you are dying inside from envy to have met a Jew who can beat you in your own territory. If I were a Catholic leader in search of someone to defend my church, I would never employ your services because you just don’t have what it takes. Anyways, have a good day sir.

Ben: 😊**
 
We know for certain that our Lord died on Friday (cf. Matt. 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, and John 19:31). We know it occurred in the month of Nisan (April) because it was the time of Passover. But the question remains: Why in the synoptic Gospels does Jesus celebrate the Passover on Thursday night (and, of course, given the fact that Passover fell on Friday in that year, this would be expected), but in the Gospel of John, Friday is “the day of preparation”? According to John, Passover fell on Saturday, which is why he refers to it as a “great Sabbath day” (cf. John 19:31). It was not only the Sabbath, but it was Passover as well. We still have to deal with this apparent contradiction.

According to The Navarre Study Bible, in Mark’s Gospel the Pharisees and Sadducees had a different way of celebrating feast days (51-52). The Pharisees were strict in their observance. If the fifteenth of Nisan fell on Friday, then that would be the day they celebrated the Passover. The Sadducees, on the other hand, were more liberal and had no problem with moving a feast day in certain situations. This practice is analogous to our modern practice of moving some feast days to Sunday when they actually occur during the week (as is commonly practiced with the feast of the Epiphany). It could also be likened to the bishops declaring a holy day not obligatory because of the day upon which it happens to fall. For example, if a holy day falls on a Friday, the bishops will sometimes dispense Catholics from the obligation of attending Mass on that particular holy day for that year.

What does all of this mean? When Jesus actually celebrated the Passover, he did it in the traditional way of the Pharisees. That is what we see in the synoptic Gospels. With the Pharisees, Jesus kept the Passover strictly in accord with what Moses said in Ex. 12. However, when John wrote about Christ’s passion, he does not put the emphasis on the Lord’s Supper that the synoptic Gospel writers do. In fact, he does not mention the Lord’s Supper at all. He emphasizes the crucifixion. Only in passing, as he describes the activity of the day, does John mention that it was “the day of preparation.” John was not speaking of the practice of Jesus and the apostles; he was speaking of the practice of the Sadducees, who had a large number of priests in their camp and great influence in the culture at the time. This fact explains why John calls Friday the “day of preparation” instead of Thursday. The Sadducees, who moved the Passover to Saturday, celebrated the day of preparation on Friday, rather than on Thursday as Jesus and the apostles did.

So it should not surprise us that Jesus lived liturgically in accord with the Pharisees rather than the Sadducees when it came to the Passover. After all, Jesus himself acknowledged that the Pharisees and scribes who sit “in the chair of Moses” must be obeyed. It was not that Jesus tended to side with the “more conservative” Pharisees over the Sadducees. Jesus simply followed the legitimate authority that he, as God, had established in Israel. At the same time, Jesus was quick to correct the “traditions of men” of either the Pharisees or the Sadducees in the process of bringing to the entire world the fullness of God’s revelation.
 
I answered this for you. Jesus was instituting the new covenant; the real passover lamb, his body. Jesus is Lord and artificier of the Jewish rules. He demonstrated this when the Jews asked him why he breaks the laws of the sabbath, Jesus replies “So that you may know that the Son of Man is Lord over the Sabbath.” Jesus is not celebrating the old covenent passover that God established with Israel. He is celebrating the new covenant passover, the Lamb of God is being substituted for sinners. Jesus can celebrate the passover on whatever day he wishes. He is Lord.

Since Jewish days begin at 6pm, the last supper night is Nisan 14th. Some Jews celebrated on Nisan 15th. The next morning, still Nisan 14, Jesus is crucified at the same time the temple lambs are being slain.

Jesus observed the Passover prior to his crucifixion, at the very beginning of Nisan 14.
**Here we don’t have an argument, because we are not talking about the same person. While I am talking about Jesus of Nazareth, a religious Jew, you must be talking about some Hellenistic guy or entity conceived in the mind of a former Jew in the Greek world of his mythologies.

Ben: **
 
Jesus of Nazareth celebrated passover the evening of thursday, which is the very beginning of Nisan 14 (beginning at sunset). He did this in harmony with the Pharisees. The Sadducees celebrated passover on the 15th as John’s Gospel tells us.
 
**Here we don’t have an argument, because we are not talking about the same person. While I am talking about Jesus of Nazareth, a religious Jew, you must be talking about some Hellenistic guy or entity conceived in the mind of a former Jew in the Greek world of his mythologies.

Ben: **
This religious Jew was fulfilling the prophecies of the old Test. prophets.
 
But Ben, the notion that Jesus was at a Passover supper is one that I was never taught!
I’ve known that he was at the LAST supper and the Passover allusion doesn’t appear, to my knowledge, in the NT.
Who said it was a Passover dinner?
**Okay Tracy, read Luke 22:7-20. That’s when the Gentile Luke decided that Jesus should celebrate his Passover Supper. That was the 13th of Nisan. One day before the regular day according to the Law.

Ben: :)**
 
**Okay Tracy, read Luke 22:7-20. That’s when the Gentile Luke decided that Jesus should celebrate his Passover Supper. That was the 13th of Nisan. One day before the regular day according to the Law.

Ben: :)**
luke, mark, and matthew all say Jesus was celebrating passover in accord with the Pharisees on Nisan 14 (thurs night). John tells us the Sadducees moved passover to Nisan 15.

“Since Christ our passover has been sacrificed, let us keep the feast.”-St. Paul
 
Here we don’t have an argument, because we are not talking about the same person. While I am talking about Jesus of Nazareth, a religious Jew, you must be talking about some Hellenistic guy or entity conceived in the mind of a former Jew in the Greek world of his mythologies.

**Ben: **
:whackadoo::jrbirdman::takeoff:
 
According to Father Mitch Paqua, the Essenes started their year on Wednesday, making the Passover that year start on Wednesday for them. Now, I know that he is not Ben, but he is one of the most intellegent and well educated men around, so he may be close…

If Ben is right that you can celebrate it late but not early, then he is fine by the essenes…

OR, Jesus is who we claim he is and he can do as he wishes.
 
**Okay Tracy, read Luke 22:7-20. That’s when the Gentile Luke decided that Jesus should celebrate his Passover Supper. That was the 13th of Nisan. One day before the regular day according to the Law.

Ben: :)**
Well, you are correct- it’s certainly in there, but I wasn’t taught that the Last Supper
had anything to do with Passover.

How do you know that it was the 13th day of Nissan? Where is that written?
 
🙂
According to Father Mitch Paqua, the Essenes started their year on Wednesday, making the Passover that year start on Wednesday for them. Now, I know that he is not Ben, but he is one of the most intellegent and well educated men around, so he may be close…

If Ben is right that you can celebrate it late but not early, then he is fine by the essenes…

OR, Jesus is who we claim he is and he can do as he wishes.
**Never mind this Father Mitch Paqua. Stick to the NT. Go back to Luke 22:7-20. Jesus celebrated before or Luke is lying.

We, regular Jews, celebrate our festivals according to the Lunar calendar, which is shorter than the solar calendar. That’s why we have to add an extra month called Adar at the end of the year. There is no other kind of calendar. If the Essenes used the Solar calendar, it had to be always after and never before, due to the fact that the Solar calendar is longer.
So, the theory of your Father Mitch Paqua has gone to the birds.

Ben: **
 
luke, mark, and matthew all say jesus was celebrating passover in accord with the pharisees on nisan 14 (thurs night). John tells us the sadducees moved passover to nisan 15.

“since christ our passover has been sacrificed, let us keep the feast.”-st. Paul
poppycock!
 
poppycock!
I wonder why you are angry.

Jesus did as he like and what he wanted to do. He knew he was going to die and had the last supper with his disciples. He might be religious Jew but it was consistent with his action that he often did not observe the law. In any case we cannot know for sure that it was the night of 13th Nisan. The date is not important and would not invalid him being the Passover sacrifice. You are a Jew; we don’t expect you to believe in Christianity nor do we expect to convert you. For all your disagreement I can only say, “So what?” The truth of Christianity does not hang on a opinion of one Jew. There are Jews who believe and they become Christians. We lose some we win some. No big deal.
 
🙂

**Never mind this Father Mitch Paqua. Stick to the NT. Go back to Luke 22:7-20. Jesus celebrated before or Luke is lying.

We, regular Jews, celebrate our festivals according to the Lunar calendar, which is shorter than the solar calendar. That’s why we have to add an extra month called Adar at the end of the year. There is no other kind of calendar. If the Essenes used the Solar calendar, it had to be always after and never before, due to the fact that the Solar calendar is longer.
So, the theory of your Father Mitch Paqua has gone to the birds.

Ben: **
Actually, according to the research that I have done since you started this rant of a thread, their calendar was a hybrid. It had qualitites of both. I suggest that you look into it a little.

I know Father Paqua’s credentials. I do not know yours. For all I know, you are some dude sitting in Hoboken, N.J. who is on here because he hates Catholics. If your position was true, why have other observant Jews who have gone on to accept Jesus not seen it? Why is this claim not made against Christianity by Atheists and Agnostics who seek to rewrite historya nd destroy the faith?

In any event, if Jesus is who we claim him to be, your position is worse than wrong. God can do as he will with when things are celebrated.
 
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