The Missing Passover

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Prodigal_Son1 said:
Friday started at sunset Thursday according to Jewish interpretation. I realize this only brings us to the day of preparation, but it also brings us to the day the Lamb of God was “slaughtered”.

You have already started with Pauline rhetoric, as if Jesus was the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans. Read Josephus. Were not the others also lambs of God?

How could Christ have celebrated the Passover ahead of schedule?..

He didn’t. That’s what I mean. He missed that Passover.

With Christ knowing His hour was to come, He also knew the timeframe things would take place.

So, he did know that he would miss that Passover.

Knowing the timeframe, Christ still had a desire to eat the Pasch with them.

And the Gentiles who wrote the gospels arranged the 13th of Nisan or Thursday evening to do that. Jesus knew he couldn’t do it before the appointed time by the Jewish law of festivals.

Luk 22:15 And he said to them: With desire I have desired to eat this pasch with you, before I suffer.

Jesus was Jewish; he could not have said that. Not before the 14th of Nisan. Any time after yes, but not before.

So, things happened according to His desire, or “will”

It didn’t. It happened according to the desire of the writers of the gospels who were not Jewish..

Even though it was a new covenant, fulfilling the prophesy of Jeremiah 31:31, it was unlike the covenant with their fathers. Even though it was unlike, it was of the same typological sense.

You are mistaken also here. The New Covenant according to Jeremiah 31:31 is with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is no saying in there that it had anything to do with Gentiles.

The prophesy of Jeremiah 31:31 is quoted, word for word, in Hebrews 8:8 - 12, but I suggest reading the larger passage of Hebrews 8:6 - 13.

But of course! What did you expect? They plagiarized much
more than just from Jeremiah.

Personally, I believe we received a “better” passover, than with the old covenant, which decayeth…

The only Scriptures that Jesus knew did not decay. What you are promoting is the same Pauline policy of Replacement Theology of Galatians 4:21-31. Mind you that Replacement Theology has been classified as a kind of Antisemitism.
You are even going agaisnt Jesus’ word in Matthew 5:19, where he said that even if the Heavens and earth should pass, not even a letter or the dot of a letter would pass from the Law; or from the Scriptures that you claim has decayed. If you believe Jesus was Christ, and you are contradicting what he said, against is the same as the prefix “anti.” I think you know where I am arriving at.
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I am still waiting to see how Jesus could not have been following the Essene calendar, how he could not have been an Essene, and how the historical information that I posted about it all is incorrect.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Prodigal Son1;5108227:
Friday started at sunset Thursday according to Jewish interpretation. I realize this only brings us to the day of preparation, but it also brings us to the day the Lamb of God was “slaughtered”.

You have already started with Pauline rhetoric, as if Jesus was the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans. Read Josephus. Were not the others also lambs of God?
Click to expand...
How could Christ have celebrated the Passover ahead of schedule?..

He didn’t. That’s what I mean. He missed that Passover.

With Christ knowing His hour was to come, He also knew the timeframe things would take place.

So, he did know that he would miss that Passover.

Knowing the timeframe, Christ still had a desire to eat the Pasch with them.

And the Gentiles who wrote the gospels arranged the 13th of Nisan or Thursday evening to do that. Jesus knew he couldn’t do it before the appointed time by the Jewish law of festivals.

Luk 22:15 And he said to them: With desire I have desired to eat this pasch with you, before I suffer.

Jesus was Jewish; he could not have said that. Not before the 14th of Nisan. Any time after yes, but not before.

So, things happened according to His desire, or “will”

It didn’t. It happened according to the desire of the writers of the gospels who were not Jewish..

Even though it was a new covenant, fulfilling the prophesy of Jeremiah 31:31, it was unlike the covenant with their fathers. Even though it was unlike, it was of the same typological sense.

You are mistaken also here. The New Covenant according to Jeremiah 31:31 is with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is no saying in there that it had anything to do with Gentiles.

The prophesy of Jeremiah 31:31 is quoted, word for word, in Hebrews 8:8 - 12, but I suggest reading the larger passage of Hebrews 8:6 - 13.

But of course! What did you expect? They plagiarized much
more than just from Jeremiah.

Personally, I believe we received a “better” passover, than with the old covenant, which decayeth…

The only Scriptures that Jesus knew did not decay. What you are promoting is the same Pauline policy of Replacement Theology of Galatians 4:21-31. Mind you that Replacement Theology has been classified as a kind of Antisemitism.
You are even going agaisnt Jesus’ word in Matthew 5:19, where he said that even if the Heavens and earth should pass, not even a letter or the dot of a letter would pass from the Law; or from the Scriptures that you claim has decayed. If you believe Jesus was Christ, and you are contradicting what he said, against is the same as the prefix “anti.” I think you know where I am arriving at.
You don’t understand , the Lord Jesus Christ himself was the passover Lamb.
We have not replaced the Jews in any way. Believing Jews and Gentiles are all one in Christ Jesus.
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ralphinal said:
I am still waiting to see how Jesus could not have been following the Essene calendar, how he could not have been an Essene, and how the historical information that I posted about it all is incorrect.
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You are being too hypothetical. Even to speculate there is no room in here.
 
Ben_Masada said:
The Missing Passover

We are starting Passover here in Israel. But since the wheels of the Truth cannot stop rolling, I want to bring to your attention the Passover of the year 30 CE. It was supposed to be the last one that Jesus would partake of, and he missed it.

According to John 19:31, that Sabbath was a solemn Sabbath, which is what we call in Hebrew a Shabbaton. That’s when a festival falls on the Sabbath. The KJV brings: “For that Sabbath day was a high day.”

That Sabbath was the 14th of the month of Nissan; the first day of Passover. The beginning of it is celebrated with the Passover Supper at the evening of the previous day, being that year on Friday. That’s what we call the Seder Meal.

In the year 30 CE, the Passover Supper was held on the evening of that Friday. No wonder, everyone somehow connected with the events taking place on the Calvary that day, had to leave it in a hurry to prepare themselves and their houses for the Passover Supper.

Jesus missed that Passover Supper because he was on the cross, and soon afterwards, in the tomb. But then again, how to understand that he celebrated his Passover Supper on the evening of Thursday, which was the 13th of Nissan? He didn’t. In Israel, no Jew would celebrate Passover in a different day alone or in a small group when everyone else would be doing it next day.

This discrepancy is perhaps due to the fact that the gospel writer, writing somehwere in the world, and realizing that the Jews in the Diaspora would celebrate every festival in two days, thought he could have Jesus celebrate the Passover Supper on the 13 of Nissan. It would have worked if Jesus was a Diaspora Jew; but in Israel there is no such a thing.

There is an option in Judaism to celebrate the Passover later, even a month later, if the person was not for some reason ready for it; but NEVER before. It means that, definitely, Jesus missed that Passover celebration, because his reported “Last Supper” did not have anything to do with the Passover Supper.

The gospel writer had either no idea what he was writing about or simply thought we would never find out about his blunder.

Ben
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Is the resurection a blunder too?
 
BRIT72 said:
Ben Masada;5115502:
You don’t understand , the Lord Jesus Christ himself was the passover Lamb.
We have not replaced the Jews in any way. Believing Jews and Gentiles are all one in Christ Jesus.
Click to expand...
How about the other Jews crucified by the Romans? Were not they also passover lambs? I hope you don’t suppose that Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans. Read Josephus.
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Ben_Masada said:
You have already started with Pauline rhetoric, as if Jesus was the only Jew to be crucified by the Romans. Read Josephus. Were not the others also lambs of God?

He didn’t. That’s what I mean. He missed that Passover.

So, he did know that he would miss that Passover.

And the Gentiles who wrote the gospels arranged the 13th of Nisan or Thursday evening to do that. Jesus knew he couldn’t do it before the appointed time by the Jewish law of festivals.

Jesus was Jewish; he could not have said that. Not before the 14th of Nisan. Any time after yes, but not before.

It didn’t. It happened according to the desire of the writers of the gospels who were not Jewish..

You are mistaken also here. The New Covenant according to Jeremiah 31:31 is with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is no saying in there that it had anything to do with Gentiles.

But of course! What did you expect? They plagiarized much
more than just from Jeremiah.

The only Scriptures that Jesus knew did not decay. What you are promoting is the same Pauline policy of Replacement Theology of Galatians 4:21-31. Mind you that Replacement Theology has been classified as a kind of Antisemitism.
You are even going agaisnt Jesus’ word in Matthew 5:19, where he said that even if the Heavens and earth should pass, not even a letter or the dot of a letter would pass from the Law; or from the Scriptures that you claim has decayed. If you believe Jesus was Christ, and you are contradicting what he said, against is the same as the prefix “anti.” I think you know where I am arriving at.
Click to expand...
I read where you accept 20% of what is written in the New Testament, leaving you with a wide comfort zone of denial and a circular argument, and you accuse me of a Pauline rhetoric. There are many scrolls recovered, many written prior to Paul’s. How does one determine what is to be believed and what is not?

I also read where you stated, Mary was a Jew and Jesus was a Jew. It is noticable that you do not include Jesus’ father in this statement. Of course it’s apparent Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, according to scriptures, and it’s also apparent Jews still reject Christ as the Messiah, but I want to hear who you think Jesus’ father was.

I for one will say Mary was a Jew, and so was Jesus, as they were born under the old covenant. Jesus’ hour had not yet come and there was much to be taught about the new covenant, prior to it’s institution. With Jesus fulfilling the laws, prophesies, the new covenant came to pass and there were no longer Jews and Gentiles. There were only believers.

In reference to the Jeremiah interpretation you offer and the excuse of plagiarism from the authors of the New Testament, I offer another Old Testament explanation of the prophesy of Jeremiah coming closer to passing.

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

As for your claim of “Antisemitism”, it appears Jews use that alot, while not realizing the reverse descrimination of their argument, that being the exclusion of anyone not Jewish. Clearly Malachi tells us the Gentiles are to be included in God’s great economy.

As you offer up Jesus’ words, in your argument, in Matthew 5:19, I offer up the words of Christ in Matthew 26:26 - 28, Mark 14:22 - 24, and Luke 22:17 - 20, specifically, “this is my blood of the new testament.” I assume you will make the accusation of more plagiarism.

What did Christ tell the people, Jews?

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. And the same are they that give testimony of me.

More plagiarism?

As I said, accepting only 20% of what the New Testament states, leaves one with a great ability to side step a conversation between yourself and Christians. This begs the question of what you hope to accomplish from these discussions? Are we to open our eyes and convert to Judaism? I’d be very surprised to receive an honest response to that question.

One thing that might surprise you is, I am currently reading the writings of Flavius Josephus, the Jewish general from the wars of the Jews, allowed to live by the Romans that captured him during the wars. With an initial preview (scanning) of his writings, I notice he acknowledges Christ and the Christian followers of the first century.

The Roman, Julian the Apostate, looked to prove the prophesies of Christ wrong, even though he had misinterpreted Jesus’ prophesy referencing the destruction of the Temple. Julian had thought Jesus had said the Temple would never be rebuilt, and to prove Him wrong, Julian attempted to rebuild the Temple, which we all know has not been rebuilt even to this day.
 
Ben_Masada said:
And the Gentiles who wrote the gospels arranged the 13th of Nisan or Thursday evening to do that. Jesus knew he couldn’t do it before the appointed time by the Jewish law of festivals.

It didn’t. It happened according to the desire of the writers of the gospels who were not Jewish..

The only Scriptures that Jesus knew did not decay. What you are promoting is the same Pauline policy of Replacement Theology of Galatians 4:21-31. Mind you that Replacement Theology has been classified as a kind of Antisemitism.
You are even going agaisnt Jesus’ word in Matthew 5:19, where he said that even if the Heavens and earth should pass, not even a letter or the dot of a letter would pass from the Law; or from the Scriptures that you claim has decayed. If you believe Jesus was Christ, and you are contradicting what he said, against is the same as the prefix “anti.” I think you know where I am arriving at.
Click to expand...
I am only quoting part of your previous statement to point out where I see a contradiction. That is, you say Gentiles wrote the Gospels, even though the authors were Jews, chosen by Christ. Then when it becomes convenient for you, you suggest truth what is written in Matthew 5:19. How can we understand what 20% of the New Testament is to be believed, as you believe?
 
ralphinal said:
I am still waiting to see how Jesus could not have been following the Essene calendar, how he could not have been an Essene, and how the historical information that I posted about it all is incorrect.
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All this shouting. :tsktsk: I admire your perseverence, Brit72.

I’d still like to see a return to the original question of Passover/Feast of Unleavoned Bread.

Ben, you claim to be a Jew living in Israel. Can you explain how many days Passover is celebrated, how it is celebrated, why it is celebrated. When it is celebrated. Did the Pharisees and the Sadducees celebrate on different dates some years? According to my Bible footnotes, the Sadducees celebrated on a different date that year than the Pharisees due to the feast being too close to the Sabbath and causing undue burden of 2 in a row.

Can you comment Ben?

Thanks.
 
ralphinal said:
Slow your roll there, playa…all that you DO is speculate!
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There is a big difference between hypothesis and speculation. Hypothesis is an assumption. Speculation is a paraphrase on written evidences.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
I am only quoting part of your previous statement to point out where I see a contradiction. That is, you say Gentiles wrote the Gospels, even though the authors were Jews, chosen by Christ. Then when it becomes convenient for you, you suggest truth what is written in Matthew 5:19. How can we understand what 20% of the New Testament is to be believed, as you believe?
Click to expand...
Ben_Masada said:
The only Scriptures that Jesus knew did not decay. the same as the prefix “anti.” I think you know where I am arriving at.
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Jesus used the Septuagint. We know this because the early Christians did too.

While I think this is off topic, certain Hebrew Scriptures were lost (to the Jews) since approx 0 AD and recovered at Qumran in 1948. I talking about the Hebrew version of the Septuagint, which was apparently not available at the Council of Jamina cir 90 AD where they were rejected… It was the Catholic Church who safeguarded these texts.
 
This site, though from an evangelical, is very interesting–and I happened to catch the DVD presentation on TBN around Christmas.

bethlehemstar.net

Actually Mr. Larsen comes up with things that support Catholic teaching–such as the “Woman crowned with the sun” in Revelations primarily refers to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Mr Larsens investigations lead him to singling out 3 April 33 AD as Cruxifiction Friday–the only Passover during Pilate’s administration that expereinced a full lunar eclipse, a “blood moon”

bethlehemstar.net/day/day.htm
 
Lion_of_Narnia said:
This site, though from an evangelical, is very interesting–and I happened to catch the DVD presentation on TBN around Christmas.

bethlehemstar.net

Actually Mr. Larsen comes up with things that support Catholic teaching–such as the “Woman crowned with the sun” in Revelations primarily refers to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Mr Larsens investigations lead him to singling out 3 April 33 AD as Cruxifiction Friday–the only Passover during Pilate’s administration that expereinced a full lunar eclipse, a “blood moon”

bethlehemstar.net/day/day.htm
Click to expand...
That’s very interesting. So what meal did they eat on Thursday?
 
Well, clearly this Passover is still missing. I was hoping by now it would have been found.
 
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