The Mormon View of Jesus Christ

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In what way did President Hinckley lie about polygamy? It’s pretty difficult to lie about something that is completely in the public record and which has been exhaustively researched and reported upon.

President Hinckley doesn’t lie, nor has he ever. Has he ever deflected a question? Yes, because he like many others desire to discuss the real issues of substance and not rehash the same old nonsense that has been cherry picked for the last 175 years.
First, here’s the video for those who don’t know what we’re talking about: youtube.com/watch?v=9lsBFlcjE-8

Second, Hinckley says that it was a ‘limited practice.’ D&C 132 in no way, shape, or form, takes such a position. True, this was Smith’s justification to his wife about his dalliances with other women disguised as a ‘revelation,’ but there’s ample evidence that those who read it took it seriously: “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy…” (Brigham Young, 6 Aug, 1866, JOD 11:269)

To any Mormon male who heard this, it was most certainly appealing. After all, who wouldn’t want to be a god? D&C 132:4 clearly says that celestial marriage, which was then defined as both temple marriage and polygamy, two sides of the same coin, was a ‘new and everlasting covenant.’

Not only that, but my wife’s family tree has not one, not two, but three Mormon polygamists. Are you going to tell me that three backward migrant Irish miners in Wyoming are in any way, shape, or form special? No, they were simply following what the prophet of God, Brigham Young told them. In fact, two of their many children were named Brigham Young ______ and another David Nephi ______ so it’s pretty obvious that they took it seriously.

Hinckley seems to have forgotten to mention that Mormons were practicing polygamy long before they ‘came west.’ Smith’s first polygamous marriage was to Fanny Alger in 1833 and then another 27 wives before D&C 132 was even committed to paper in July of 1843 and then another 10 before he was murdered.

Third, Hinckley stated that the church ceased polygamy in 1890. What he didn’t bother to say was that the church continued to practice it anyway as proven by the fact that the prophet Joseph F. Smith plead guilty of violating his own state’s anti-polygamy laws, having fathered 11 children with his wives after the Manifesto of 1890.

And fourth, he said that the time came for the church to stop the practice but he neglected to mention the fact that the ‘revelation’ is still considered scripture, whether it’s practiced or not.

It’s odd to note that the church gave up the practice on the eve of the Federal Government seizing both temples. Why didn’t your god see this one coming? And why does he value man’s law more than his own?

Are you aware that the church was practicing polygamy while it denied it even before the Manifesto? That’s not exactly what I would call ‘exhaustively researched and reported upon’ because the only way Mormons learn this fact is from us critics.

I’m not talking about deflecting, I’m talking about the outright, blatant lying and omission of facts about polygamy. The ‘same old nonsense’ you cited won’t ever go away. Would you like to know why? Because the church does not, nor has it ever addressed these concerns. It just tells the congregation to not read anything that isn’t ‘faith building.’

Unfortunately, Hinckley was wholly deceptive and evasive in his answers, hoping that people who don’t know nearly as much as some of us would take him at his word.

I believe the term for a person like that is ‘liar.
 
why me, SirThomasMore and Returning Home:

In what way did President Hinckley lie about polygamy? It’s pretty difficult to lie about something that is completely in the public record and which has been exhaustively researched and reported upon.

President Hinckley doesn’t lie, nor has he ever. Has he ever deflected a question? Yes, because he like many others desire to discuss the real issues of substance and not rehash the same old nonsense that has been cherry picked for the last 175 years.

Lie? Please elaborate.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

PS: SirThomasMore – you seem to have a pretty major chip on your shoulder in how you refer to LDS Church leaders. It makes it pretty hard to take you seriously. You might want to tone down the rhetoric so we can have a decent conversation and learn from one another.
I do not have a “major chip”. It is a false Church led by false prophets. I treat it as Jesus would have me treat it. I have no ill will toward you, though your book was a bit odd. I have no “rhetoric”. I speak plainly and firmly. I do not molly coddle false prophets and/or their church.
 
I did not say Hinkley lied about polygamy…though he was not truly honest about it…I say he lied God being a man
 
or rather, he lied about the LDS teaching that God was once a man
 
Having read the various posts here on Mormonism by Mormons, they do have a different story, very different story.

And if God is God, then why did He not give us this message 2,000 years ago?
 
President Hinckley doesn’t lie, nor has he ever. Looking forward to your thoughts.

.
I would like to make a comment if I can.

Would you really stand by your comment above? I have been alive for many years and I have to admit I have lied. I really do not think that there is one human being who ever lived that has not told a lie. I will go out on a limb here and say to you that what you have written above is a lie and I do beleive you have to know this.

Of course Jesus and Mary never lied but Jesus was God and mary was preserved from original sin just as Adam and Eve were before the real Great Apostacy.

Could you elaborate on your quote above? I would like to know more about a man who never told a lie. Has he ever sinned in your own mind? Was he a sinner like the rest of us?
 
Would you really stand by your comment above? I have been alive for many years and I have to admit I have lied. I really do not think that there is one human being who ever lived that has not told a lie. I will go out on a limb here and say to you that what you have written above is a lie and I do beleive you have to know this.

Could you elaborate on your quote above? I would like to know more about a man who never told a lie. Has he ever sinned in your own mind? Was he a sinner like the rest of us?
This is the Mormon hokey pokey, the making of a statement and then not being able to back it up once it comes under scrutiny.

No LDS text I can find states that an LDS prophet can make an incorrect statement. In fact, the opposite is clearly implied but the church always stops just short of saying so because they know it’s not true and can be easily shown false.

Mormonism as fact exists nowhere outside of Mormonism.
 
I think it also explains why they are very sensitive to critical thinking and consider it uncharitable.
 
One of the fundamental differences between traditional Christianity and Mormonism is in our understandings of the pre-mortal existence of Jesus Christ. Catholics believe that, as God (but not God the Father), Jesus has eternally existed. Mormons on the other hand believe that Jesus was created/organized by the Father (and the Heavenly Mother), as we all were in our pre-mortal existence. Jesus was the first-born of these spirit children of the Father and Heavenly Mother. Now, Mormons may reply by saying that they also believe that Jesus has eternally existed, as we all have, as “intelligences”, but it is clear that they believe that Jesus is literally the first-born spirit child of the Father, and as such underwent some sort of “creation”/“organization” (“organize” is used since Mormons reject ex nihilo creation) process.

Mormons, how do you view the traditional Christian view of Jesus? Catholics, how do you view the Mormon view of Jesus? Which one is the most Biblical, and why?
Sort of similar to the JW’s view of Jesus: First created creature of God.(Arianism). Many will say Jesus is created because Jesus is God’s first-born. However,the profound misunderstanding lies with terminology,such as begotten and first-born.
 
I think it also explains why they are very sensitive to critical thinking and consider it uncharitable.
You’re very much on the right track, Kathleen and Nicea. Any faith that will not bear to be investigated has a very weak foundation. They simply want the congregation to take their word for it, not to think for themselves.

While there’s a language barrier between Christians and Mormons, there’s also a similar amount of deliberate misleading and outright lying on the church’s part in order to appear more mainstream.
 
You’re very much on the right track, Kathleen and Nicea. Any faith that will not bear to be investigated has a very weak foundation. They simply want the congregation to take their word for it, not to think for themselves.

While there’s a language barrier between Christians and Mormons, there’s also a similar amount of deliberate misleading and outright lying on the church’s part in order to appear more mainstream.
May you please elaborate on your last paragraph?
 
You’re very much on the right track, Kathleen and Nicea. Any faith that will not bear to be investigated has a very weak foundation. They simply want the congregation to take their word for it, not to think for themselves.

While there’s a language barrier between Christians and Mormons, there’s also a similar amount of deliberate misleading and outright lying on the church’s part in order to appear more mainstream.
“I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him." - Brigham Young

I guess even he understood the need for scrutiny.
 
May you please elaborate on your last paragraph?
Absolutely, anything I can do to clear up the misconceptions Mormons deceive people into believing about them and their postion about Jesus and the salvation he offers.
Returning Home:
“While there’s a language barrier between Christians and Mormons, there’s also a similar amount of deliberate misleading and outright lying on the church’s part in order to appear more mainstream.”
When Mormons say that they believe in the Godhead, they mean that they believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all separate and distinct entities, the first of which was once a man that through being a good Mormon, he became a god, too.

They say that they believe in Jesus, but because the Biblical Jesus wasn’t born of incest*, wasn’t once named Jehovah, and offers salvation through his grace alone, it’s clear that they believe in a Jesus, but not *our] Jesus.

And so it goes; they use Christian terminology but affix different meanings to those same words. This is the reason Mormon missionaries confuse Christians who aren’t familair with their teachings.

With the BOM having been discreditied as having been largely plagiarized from the KJV, it’s clear that the book isn’t of divine origin because Smith was fully capable of producing it. This doesn’t even include the fact that the Furst Vision is an evolved story with at least five different versions preceding it.

In regards to the church lying, you don’t have to look far; polygamy is an excellent example. The church was practicing it while denying it and at that time, the BOM and D&C (the old D&C 101) clearly condemned it. Then the D&C condoned and actually encouraged it in D&C 132 (at this point the old D&C 101 was dropped). The church then, under duress, renounced polygamy (the 1890 Manifesto) but continued to practice it anyway until the Second Manifesto.**

Does that help clear it up?

*Since the Mormon gd is the father of our spirits, has a body of flesh and bone, and has been taught to have had physical intercourse with Mary, this is the only realistic result.

*The Second Manifesto was issued by then-prophet Joseph F. Smith, Joseph Smith’s nephew, because he’d plead guilty to violating Utah’s anti-polygamy laws for having fathered 11 children after the first Manifesto. If the laws of God are eternal (Mormon 9:9, Alma 41:8), why did he drop polygamy when it was called a “new and everlasting covenant (D&C 132:4)” in favor of man’s laws? And if the church did renounce polygamy, why don’t the rules apply to their own prophets?
 
The Catholic Church is in continual self-reform and renewal. Part of it is the ongoing teaching in the times we are living in and the inculturation of more kinds of people…give and take…

Has anyone ever gone to a religious order priest chapter? They can be rough. I went to the SE Italian one. I was told this is where everybody unloads every 3 years. The sisters and brothers and lay were all invited. We were all family.

They really got down. I finally asked how they could all understand each other as they were all talking at the same time and letting out steam. One answered,’ oh, we understand each other.’

Priests go to the cafeteria and have disputes on theological issues in regards to pastoral guidance, and they tell each other off…driving their nice car or trying to play God leading a pilgrimage…and so on.

They are very faithful to each other. But they hold no barriers…so they have self-reforming relationships…atleast that is the ones I knew…one said the Jesuits were the Marines of the priesthood…another, a diocesan priest, told me when he was studying at the Vatican, they went over to the big Jesuit place, and threw things up at the window…calling them trolls…another priest from a different rite told me how some of the Latin priests were bragging and he was mad and hurt at them.

My former pastor was greatly loved by the children. He was the chaplain for the orphans when he was first ordained. He was very gruff but kind on the inside. He wore his chausable in hot July weather. He would whistle ‘Jingle Bells’. I told him my daughter called him grandpa…He was very upset…said, 'noooooo. When I first came here as pastor, coming up the aisle to say my first Mass, a kid cried out, ‘Daddy!’…and an old lady who knew him for 30 years said he would run into some bad people and tell them to go to hell. I was very shocked, and considering the grace and power of a priest, I thought he’d better not say that. I know that sounds terrible to some people.

But these priests I knew were real people and they wanted you to tell them what was really bothering you so they could help. And I always found their advice most solid.
 
the main problem is that the whole CoLDS concept is based on an angel of light allegedly appearing to Joe in a grove. He later calls the person God, but originally, he just said it was a being of light. Then we have another angel appearing to him in his room.

These angels tell Joe doctrine that is contrary to the bible.

According to God, that means the angels are of Satan.

I urge my LDS brothers and sisters to leave that church and come to the true Church.
 
My dear friends. Thank you for conversing with me in this forum. I had no intentions of being here as long as I did as I have never found such interactions to be productive. They serve mainly for people to prove they are right and to accuse others who do not share their belief to be wrong. It is the nature of forums and it is not likely to change into the foreseeable future. I can spend hours answering each of you, but I don’t believe it will make a bit of difference for me to do so. I find my time better spent in ministering to others one on one or writing more books to help others understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. No offense, your passion has you pretty much set and there is nothing I will write or say to change your minds. No worries, I am the same. Those of us in these forums are on the fringe and that is our nature.

Thanks to the many who sent me personal forum messages and sought me out on the web to send me email. Your inquiries are appreciated and hopefully we can continue our correspondence in a less distracting environment. I will try to answer you as I can – be patient. There is much to learn and we have time to do it.

If there was a bottom line to all of this it would be to ask yourself what is the real purpose of a church and what should be the result of following true doctrine in Jesus Christ? Christ said by their fruits ye shall know them (speaking of prophets), but we can assume such an admonition can extend to the people of a particular faith community as well.

Catholics claim faith in Jesus Christ, belief in their Church and its doctrine as being true, and faith in its leaders as being called of God.

Mormons claim faith in Jesus Christ, belief in their Church and its doctrine as being true, and faith in its leaders as being called of God.

How can we measure which one is really true? Of course this is difficult as faith is qualitative, interpretation of scripture and theology is subjective, and absolute confirmation is impossible.

However, we can look at quantitative data as being a leading indicator of how faithful a Church’s people are; how well the doctrines they believe are bearing fruit; and the effectiveness of the Church’s leaders in inspiring their people.

For this we turn to the National Survey of Youth and Religion (NSYR), 2002-2003 from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and a Barna Group study in 2000/2001 which probed theological beliefs among adults in the US.

The results of both of these studies can be found at studychristianity.com/fruits_of_faith.html. You may also seek out the native data as you wish. If we simply compare the results between LDS and Roman Catholic youth, and LDS and Roman Catholic adults, one can see absolutely astounding differences in spirituality, faithfulness, and devotion. If we add on top of this the national statistics of Utah as compared to the rest of the nation we gain even greater fruits to compare.

If we look beyond LDS vs. Catholic numbers, the fact is that every other major Christian religion shows far better results for its youth and adults than does Catholicism.

Why?

Why are Catholics showing such weak numbers in these studies?

Folks – these results are hard data. There is no interpretation of scriptures here, not arguing about which religion is true or not; this data is plain and simple and does not lie.
By their fruits ye will know them. This is walking the walk, not just talking the talk.
This is why I didn’t run from Catholicism, I ran to Mormonism. I ran to a denomination of Christianity that is bearing fruit like no other Christian Church is today. Please excuse this appearance of boasting, but I am trying to get a point across.

Look at the data and see for yourself. If Mormonism wasn’t true then we as a people would not be bearing this good fruit and would be doing evil in the world. That is the bottom line. If the LDS Church was of Satan, then these results would be different – why would Satan have his children do such wonderful things? A house divided cannot stand, and therefore it would make no sense.

We can go round and round and round about who is right in this and who is right in that. At the end of the day we will go nowhere; however, with this data we can end the discussion and see where the true results of faith in Christ can how that compares between our two beloved Christian Churches.

All the best to each of you in your faith journey. If you remain Catholic, then be the very best Catholic you can be. If you choose to follow a different path in Christ, then God bless you in that path.

Eric Shuster
www.ericshuster.com 🙂
 
My testimony as a parting thought:

I am a Christian.

I have been a Christian all of my life.

I believe in God the Father—omnipotent and omnipresent—who is pure love, mercy, charity, truth, faith, and judgment, having all power and knowledge and from whom all good things come.

I believe that His son Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary, was crucified on Calvary, was resurrected, and today sits at the right hand of God our Father. I know Jesus Christ is my Savior and my Redeemer and through the grace of His Atonement and resurrection I can be forgiven of my sins and given the opportunity to return to my Heavenly Father in the eternities as a joint heir with Christ—a resurrected and exalted being according to the scriptures.

I believe in worshipping and praying to God my Heavenly Father, just as Jesus Christ so aptly demonstrated throughout His ministry in setting the perfect example of prayer.

I believe in worshipping Jesus Christ as the only begotten son of God, ending all my prayers to the Father in His name, and taking upon me His name in truth and righteousness.

I believe in the gifts of, and in praying and worshipping under the inspiration and power of, the Holy Ghost, who together with God the Father and Jesus Christ form the Godhead—three distinct beings with a perfect oneness that defies all human comprehension.

I believe God is the great I Am and not the great I was, and as such He has blessed us with living oracles on the earth today in Apostles and Prophets, and in an open canon of the Holy Scriptures as the everlasting word of God.

I believe in community worship and have selected among the many thousands of Christian denominations in the world today the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as my own Christian faith community.

I believe that Jesus Christ leads His Church from His throne in the heavens and will come again to reign personally on earth where His kingdom will have no end.

I believe that both faith and works go hand in hand, with works being an accurate measure of one’s faith and love in the Lord Jesus Christ, and by which we will be judged as a testimony of our willingness to sacrifice and lose our lives in the service of God.

I believe family is the most important entity in the kingdom of God, and that through our love and faithfulness to the Lord Jesus Christ and His gospel we can return to our Father in Heaven and be together as families in the eternities.

I bear this solemn testimony in the holy name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Amen

Eric Shuster
 
This is the same kind of bull**** testimony a missionary once bore to me when I was an investigator. That missionary later married my little sister. Even on their honeymoon, he cheated on her. He cheated on her for the next 25 years, all the time rising in the LDS heirarchy, and all the time denying it with great sincerity, even “bearing testimony in the name of Jesus” of his innocence. Joseph Smith would have been proud. Eventually my sister caught him in in the act and divorced him.

So don’t think your testimony will impress me. It does not.
 
So don’t think your testimony will impress me. It does not.
I agree.

I have noticed when mormons start sharing/bearing their testimony, it is a last ditch effort at trying to get out of an uncomfortable situation.

I am even less impressed when the exact same thing is posted on at least 3 threads.
 
With apologies to Samuel Johnson, “testimony is the last refuge of a scoundrel”.
 
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