The Mormons are coming!

[Eucharisted]

So a couple of (very nice) mormon missionaries came to my door this morning. They asked me if I believed in Prophets and if I still believed in Prophets today. After a very brief discussion they asked to come in. Since my house is a disaster (just got back from a trip) I said that now was not a good time… Which of course was followed by “when is a good time?” :banghead:

So long story short, they are coming Thursday. I figure if they are able to put up with the crucifixes, rosaries and pictures of Mary and Christ all over my house, and be comfortable with it, more power to them.

How do these things usually work?

Any suggestions?

God bless

I usually tell missionairies I’m Catholic. And they never come back.

 

[Jerusha]

I, personally, could not interact with LDS people in missionary mode. I have had too many negative experiences with LDS people to deal rationally with it.

However, by all means, if you feel comfortable with it, and can do your homework first, take advantage of the opportunity.

If they bring up the subject of Moroni’s prayer in Moroni 10, counter with Moroni’s lament in Moroni 9, and begin discussing some of the social problems within LDS culture.

Another good strategy is to find King Benjamin’s sermon in Mosiah, and compare it to present-day LDS culture. There are many places in the BOM that are critical of Mormonism.

In my experience, they are so busy criticizing and manufacturing criticisms of other cultures, religions, races, and non-Mormons, that they don’t have enough energy left to take a look at themselves.

Make the first “interview” very gentle.

 

[Jerusha]

There are also some good books out there that do not seem to address Mormon issues.

*The Arabian Nights (1990). * (Haddawy, H. trans). NYC: W.W. Norton
Especially “Jullinar of the sea”
Beowulf (2000) (Heaney, S. trans.) NYC: Farrar, Straus, and Giroux.
Black E. (2003). *War Against the weak: eugenics and America’s campaign to create a master race. *New York: Four Walls Eight Windows.
Booth, L. (1992) *When God becomes a drug. *Tarcher.
Casas, B. de las. (1689) A brief account of the destruction of the Indies London: for R. Hewson at the Crown in Cornhill, near Stocksmarket. Available at http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=283563&pageno=2
Chapman, P. (1973) The man who led Columbus to America. Atlanta: Judson Press.
Chardin, P. T. de (1959) *The Phenomenon of Man *Harper Perennial 1976
Chardin, P. T. de (2002) *Christianity and Evolution *Harvest/HBJ
DeLoria, V. (1973). God is Red. NY: Grosset and Dunlap
Diamond, J. (1997). Guns, germs, and steel: The fates of human societies. NY: W. W. Norton & Co.
Diamond, J. (2005). *Collapse: How societies choose to fail or succeed. * NYC: Viking.
Eckert, A. (1992). *A sorrow in our hearts: The life of Tecumseh. *NYC: Bantam Book
Hanks, L.(1959). Aristotle and the American Natives; a study in race prejudice in the modern world. Indiana: Native Americana University Press.
MacManus, S. (1976). *The story of the Irish race: a popular history of Ireland. *NY: Devin-Adair.
Malcomson, S. (2000). *One drop of blood: The American misadventure of race. *NYC: Farrar, Straus, and Giroux.
Menzies, G. (2003). *1421: The year China discovered America. *NYC: Harper Collins.
Nag Hammadi Library. Available atgnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html **

Nadel, L., Haims, J. & Stempson (1990). Sixth sense: the whole-brain book of intuition, hunches, gut feelings, and their place in your everyday life. NY: Prentice Hall
Quaife, M.M. (Ed.) Black Hawk (1916 reprint). Life of Black Hawk (trans. Antoine LeClairoriginally published in 1834). * * Chicago: Lakeside Press. Available at archive.org/details/lifeofblackhawkm00blacuoft
Thwaite R.G. (Ed. & Trans.). (1896-1901). The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents: Travels and Explorations of the Jesuit Missionaries in North America 1620-1791. Cleveland, Burrows Bros. Available at puffin.creighton.edu/jesuit/relations/
Tolkien, J.R.R. (2001). *The Hobbit. Boston: Houghton Mifflin.
Tolkien, J.R.R. (1965). Lord of the rings. Boston: Houghton Mifflin.
Tolkien, J.R.R. (1981). The letters of JRR Tolkien. *Boston: Houghton Mifflin.

That should get them busy at mind-expansion!!!

Very cool books that, if they read the whole list, they will study themselves out of it, without excessive pain.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Well, there ARE other reasons to get ‘glazed eyes’ other than the ones you are assigning.

People who are terminally bored, or attempting to deal courteously with boors, tend to have their eyes glaze…

Or those with blind faith in an obvious parody religion. On this end–at school-- have glazed eyes with a toothy smile, when I sense a person deep down inside their souls crying to get out…

That’s a keeper; I should write that down.

Ironically Yours.

 

[dianaiad]

Why don’t Mormons revere and respect the virgin mother of Jesus?

When I was LDS, I often heard the most disrespectful things said about the Blessed Virgin. Mormons often said that “Mary was just God’s brood mare” and that “when Heavenly Father was through with her, Mary was just like any other woman”.

I do not believe that you have ever heard any Mormon say anything remotely like that. We do respect her; she was very special. She was/is His mother, for crying out loud!

But no, Paul, I do not believe that you ever heard any Mormon refer to Mary as a 'brood mare." That’s disgusting.

We do not, however, think that it is appropriate to pray to her, whether that prayer is direct, or to ask her to intercede with her Son.

That kind of talk about any woman is shameful to a Catholic, but to say those things about the Blessed Virgin is truly heinous. Is the Mormon “Heavenly Father” a user of virgins? Is he a 'love-em-and-leave-em" kind of guy?

It seems the Mormons have created their god in the image and likeness of Joseph Smith, or apostle Heber C. Kimball.

It would be shameful to anybody who referred to her in that way. Since no Mormon ever has, I think we can put that one to rest.

Paul, there is NO way any Mormon who still believed in our faith would refer to Mary as a ‘brood mare’ or anything remotely equivalent to that.

And you know it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I do not believe that you have ever heard any Mormon say anything remotely like that. We do respect her; she was very special. She was/is His mother, for crying out loud!

But no, Paul, I do not believe that you ever heard any Mormon refer to Mary as a 'brood mare." That’s disgusting.

We do not, however, think that it is appropriate to pray to her, whether that prayer is direct, or to ask her to intercede with her Son.

It would be shameful to anybody who referred to her in that way. Since no Mormon ever has, I think we can put that one to rest.

Paul, there is NO way any Mormon who still believed in our faith would refer to Mary as a ‘brood mare’ or anything remotely equivalent to that.

And you know it.

The common thing I hear and was taught is that Mary was an ordinary woman given an extraordinary task. Catholic and Orthodox recognize that Mary was an extraordinary woman, by the graces that God gave her. “Full of grace”, is not a metaphor.

 

[dianaiad]

No, i think we are crossing meaning. I thought you meant it was disrespectful to the missionaries. But now you are saying it is disrespectful to the Catholic. I don’t see that it is, either way.

No, Rebecca, I am not now saying that it would be disrespectful to the missionaries. I’ve never said anything else. How is it disrespectful to the missionaries for a man in his own home to practice his faith, or pray, in any way he wants to? How in the name of all that is wonderful did you get the idea that I thought that the disrespect was aimed AT the missionaries?

no kidding.

It is a scripture, which I don’t think any Mormon would not have a hard time saying. I think this is one thing Mormons don’t “get”, Catholics, and many other Christians, say and sing scriptures, as prayers.

But we do not…and the “Hail Mary” is not a direct quote from scripture. Nor is the apostle’s creed quoted from the scriptures.

Rebecca, the giving and taking of offense is a very squishy thing; it’s never really about the actual action or words said; it’s about motive. It’s always about motive and intent. If I were to say a rosary with a Catholic, actually recite the words, I believe it would be an insult to your faith, because for me, they would be not simply empty words, they would be mocking ones; I not only do not believe in them, I believe that reciting set prayers is the wrong way to pray, period.

I respect the faith and intent you put into reciting them too much to cheapen it, because it is the right way to pray, for YOU, and it will remain the right way to pray for you until you come to believe that it is not.

To put it as simply as possible…I believe that He listens to your heart as you pray the Rosary. He would just get mad at me for disrespecting you if I did it without the same level of faith, especially given my beliefs about set prayers. Someone else may have another view, and it is THEIR intent that would matter then.

Yes, in a way that is relativism, but judging the intent/motive of an action is always important when judging the good/evil of that action. It’s one of the most important things, actually–our justice and religious ideals are based on it.

It is based on the two scriptures, Luke 1:28, Luke 1:42, put together: “Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”

The last sentence, “Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us now, and at the hour of our death. Amen”, no, I can’t see that a Momon would be comfortable saying this. But that’s ok. Prayer can be awkward and uncomfortable, God still here’s them.

Prayer…can be awkward and uncomfortable if one is unsure of the reason for praying, but if it is awkward and uncomfortable because one is saying words that directly contradict one’s own beliefs? That’s more than awkward and uncomfortable.

Didn’t you just accuse non-Mormons of not praying with you, yet, you have a problem doing the same with non-Mormons?

Different situations. Different motives. And you know it.

Do you not believe that an angel said these words to Mary? I understand you don’t believe that the souls of the dead who are with God can pray with you.

You are talking to a person who prayed as an atheist. I tell you, from experience, God heard my prayers. Even the ones that felt highly ridiculous and felt like I was talking to the air.

I am sorry you don’t have respect for our beliefs.

This entire conversation about the fact that I do have respect for your beliefs; too much to mock them. I would not pray the rosary with you–not because I don’t believe that God doesn’t hear you when you recite it, but that He would, quite rightly because that’s how it would BE if I did it, nail me for mocking you.

Give me a break for once, Rebecca. The fact is, if I said the Rosary with a Catholic, it would be a mockery of your faith because I think it would be, and since I would be the one doing it, then it would be a mockery of your faith. I respect your faith and beliefs too much to do that.

Got it yet?

There might be a time when my reciting it would not be mocking you. I can even vaguely imagine one…but as a missionary standing in your home during an appointment to teach you my faith? That wouldn’t be it.

THAT would be the time to allow the person whose home I am in to set the pace and the prayer, and if I couldn’t recite the words for whatever reason, then to listen as he does, quietly, with an open heart and mind, respecting the faith that I find there.

Since it’s quite obvious that you are intentionally misinterpreting and presenting what I am writing and twisting it, quite literally, 180 degrees, I think I’m done here.

 

[dianaiad]

In my experience, they are so busy criticizing and manufacturing criticisms of other cultures, religions, races, and non-Mormons, that they don’t have enough energy left to take a look at themselves.

Make the first “interview” very gentle.

Oh, sure.

Let’s look at the many pamphlets, books, signs, protests and websites by Mormons that attack other religions, races and cultures, shall we?

let’s make this fair: you give me something that has been published within the last half century, and I’ll return with stuff that has been published in criticism of the Mormons within the last, oh, 24 hours.

And then we will see who has been the busiest.

Diana

 

[RebeccaJ]

Since it’s quite obvious that you are intentionally misinterpreting and presenting what I am writing and twisting it, quite literally, 180 degrees, I think I’m done here.

I was telling you what we believe compared to what you are saying.

Pretty much, all you are saying, is “I’m not going to pray a rosary and you can’t make me.”

No one is trying to make you do anything.

 

[datamonkey]

When the missionaries come over, please be polite and respectful. They will push you to keep an open mind while their minds are closed. They are coming over to convert you not the other way around.

I am a Catholic and my son is currently serving an LDS missionary in South Dakota. Although I am deeply sadden by his choice, I pray for him daily and hope another Catholic in his area will be the one that can help him realize the choice he made was the wrong one. Like most children his age, he thinks his dad doesn’t know quite as much as he does.

You may be the one person to help him realize his choice was wrong. Please pray for my son and his salvation.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Just wanted to update anyone who had gotten interested in knowing how this played out.

Long story short, the missionaries did not come back

Which means I did not get my desired free Book of Mormon. It just wasn’t met to be.

Is this common or was it me

God bless

 

[Jerusha]

Sounds like those guys are wiser than some.

If you really want one, you can go to any large used book store. They have them for cheap. I got mine for $5.

Otherwise, you can wade through it online, like here:

2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/bom_main.shtml

 

[zerinus]

Just wanted to update anyone who had gotten interested in knowing how this played out.

Long story short, the missionaries did not come back

Which means I did not get my desired free Book of Mormon. It just wasn’t met to be.

Is this common or was it me

It isn’t common! There could be all kinds of reasons.

If they left you a contact number, you can always call them back.

You can also request a free copy of the Book of Mormon here.

And if you wanted to read it online, you could do it here!

zerinus

 

[jw2lds2catholic]

I am quite suprised the missionaries didn’t show up. They usually jump at the chance to ‘teach’ a lesson and rarely stand peopel up without a call to reschedule. I would expect to hear from these guys soon. It might have been a split’s day ( where they switch partners for the day) or maybe interviews with the leadership or whatever let your appointment slip through the cracks. Don’t worry - you mentioning you are Catholic will did scare them away - they need the numbers so they’ll visit when they get the chance.

 

[dianaiad]

The common thing I hear and was taught is that Mary was an ordinary woman given an extraordinary task. Catholic and Orthodox recognize that Mary was an extraordinary woman, by the graces that God gave her. “Full of grace”, is not a metaphor.

No woman given that task could possibly be called ‘ordinary.’

…and I notice that even you are not claiming that the term ‘brood mare’ or anything even remotely that insulting was EVER used.

 

[GKC]

I have every intention in doing so zerinus. Which is why I hope to get a free copy of the BoM out of this. I was trying to be funny, not skeptical. I was also being very serious. The opposite of funny is not skeptical or serious; not funny is the opposit of funny.

God bless

G. K. Chesterton, HERETICS.

Sorry I’m late with the citation.

GKC

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Do they still give the slide show? I remember when I was about 16, some missionaries gave me a slide show. It was about the Jews coming to the New World, etc. I thought it was kind of strange, but they seemed like nice boys. I don’t remember them hounding me after that one visit, I probably told them I was Catholic and not really interested in becoming a Mormon.

But anyway, do they have a video these days to watch when they visit?

 

[cazayoux]

If/when they come back, invite them in and offer them some water.
These poor guys are doing what they think God is calling them to do and they are not treated very well by the general public.
Being kind to these basic needs will go a LONG way to having them open their hearts.
Tell them you admire the task they tackle and that you realize they must ‘put up with’ a lot.

When it gets to the discussion, try to be the one that determines the topic.
They believe that a complete apostasy happened some time after the last apostle died.
Find out when they think it is.
They do not actually have a known time.
They will say it was definitely by the time ‘Constantine hijacked Christianity’.

Wherever they draw the line, bring this to there attention:

• there are distinctly Catholic teachings before that line
• they still accept decisions from that no-longer-authoritative church after that line.

Ask them why they trust that the new testament in their King James Version bible is right.
While we agree that the new testament writings were inspired and written in the first century, these were not the only Christian writings in existence.
It came to a head in the 4th (not first) century.
The council met in 382 and discussed all of these Christian writings.
Books that did not make it into the canon were argued by some to be inspired (Gospel of Thomas, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Acts of Peter, …).
Books that did make it into the canon were argued by some to not be inspired (the Apocalypse of John, Hebrews, …).
The council wrestled with all of the arguments and evidence and authoritatively listed which writings were inspired.
Once this decision was made, the argument stopped.
It’s almost as if the council spoke authoritatively.
This is the same new testament that is used by all Christendom today.

So even if they draw the line at Constantine (325 A.D), later there is an authoritative council decision they trust completely to tell them what the Word of God written actually is.

If they say they don’t trust ‘the church’ after Constantine, then ask them how they know their new testament is accurate. It might be missing books. It might have too many. How do they know.

Just giving the discussion points here.
Know that you must, must, must be very gentle in all of your conversations with them.

michel

 

[Jerusha]

cazayoux, I beg to differ with you there. Arguing about what is included in the canon of the scripture is exactly the reason why they believe there was an apostasy. Remember they had limited or no access to New Testament apocryphica. Claiming an apostasy allows them to accept the book of mormon as scripture. Even though the discovery of the nag hammadi literature shows no similarity to that and the bom.



They claim that the NT is inaccurate because it went through the hands of the catholic church. That is the reason why there are discrepancies between the bom. In fact, JS started re-writing the NT to reconcile any discrepancies between it and the bom.

 

[cazayoux]

cazayoux, I beg to differ with you there. Arguing about what is included in the canon of the scripture is exactly the reason why they believe there was an apostasy. Remember they had limited or no access to New Testament apocryphica. Claiming an apostasy allows them to accept the book of mormon as scripture. Even though the discovery of the nag hammadi literature shows no similarity to that and the bom.



They claim that the NT is inaccurate because it went through the hands of the catholic church. That is the reason why there are discrepancies between the bom. In fact, JS started re-writing the NT to reconcile any discrepancies between it and the bom.

I definitely see your point.
The line of reasoning I used was effective with a pair of young men that came to the door one day.
I’ll definitely be more careful in the future.

michel