The Mormons are coming!

[PaulDupre]

Sounds like those guys are wiser than some.

If you really want one, you can go to any large used book store. They have them for cheap. I got mine for $5.

Otherwise, you can wade through it online, like here:

2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/bom_main.shtml

You can also use the more user-friendly searchable online BOM at the official LDS site:

The only drawback with the online version is that you don’t get the cool pictures of all those Nephites that look like Viking bodybuilders.

Paul

 

[Jerusha]

Now, don’t diss Arnie!!!

I know it. And that is just the problem. They are capable of morphing in either direction. :sad_yes:

That’s why it is best to confront them before they openly begin morphing.
The “logic” of the end of Alma 24 is scary.

 

[LittleSage]

So a couple of (very nice) mormon missionaries came to my door this morning. They asked me if I believed in Prophets and if I still believed in Prophets today. After a very brief discussion they asked to come in. Since my house is a disaster (just got back from a trip) I said that now was not a good time… Which of course was followed by “when is a good time?” :banghead:

So long story short, they are coming Thursday. I figure if they are able to put up with the crucifixes, rosaries and pictures of Mary and Christ all over my house, and be comfortable with it, more power to them.

How do these things usually work?

Any suggestions?

God bless

I always consider these guys to be great opportunities for a fun religious debate.

 

[dianaiad]

cazayoux, I beg to differ with you there. Arguing about what is included in the canon of the scripture is exactly the reason why they believe there was an apostasy. Remember they had limited or no access to New Testament apocryphica. Claiming an apostasy allows them to accept the book of mormon as scripture. Even though the discovery of the nag hammadi literature shows no similarity to that and the bom.



They claim that the NT is inaccurate because it went through the hands of the catholic church. That is the reason why there are discrepancies between the bom. In fact, JS started re-writing the NT to reconcile any discrepancies between it and the bom.

Well, except for poetic forms (which is VERY similar to the BoM) why on earth should the ‘nag hammadi literature’ show any similarity to the Book of Mormon?

 

[dianaiad]

I was telling you what we believe compared to what you are saying.

Pretty much, all you are saying, is “I’m not going to pray a rosary and you can’t make me.”

No one is trying to make you do anything.

No, I am saying that if I did pray a rosary with you, it would be mocking your beliefs. Since that is how I feel about it, then if I did it, it WOULD be mocking your beliefs…because that is what I would intend to do.

So I don’t.

Get it now?

If the time ever came when*** I*** came to believe that my saying the rosary with you would not be mocking your beliefs, then I would not be mocking your beliefs.

It’s all about the intent of the person doing the thing, not about what the observer thinks.

An example: a man walks up to a counter, picks up a candy bar, and walks out of the store.

An observer probably would think that he stole the candy.

He could be right…but…

The man could be the store owner.
He could have paid for the candy earlier and simply left it there while he went to the restroom…
He could have put it on his credit card earlier when he paid for his gasoline.

The observer does not know, but the man taking the candy does.

I know that Catholicism has something about 'baptism of desire, ’ right? That is, if you would if you could, so it “counts” if it turns out that you physically can’t?"

Isn’t the obverse of that idea that if you go through the steps, but don’t ‘mean’ it, it’s a Very Bad Thing? Isn’t hypocrisy one of the bigger no-no’s?

 

[Donna_Mc]

I haven’t had any Mormons here for quite some time. The last time they were here I spoke to them and answered questions about the area. They are usually very nice kids who think they are doing the right thing which I respect although totally disagree with what they teach and believe. If I had the chance again I would print out some tracks from this website for them and hope that they would read them and come into the one church that Jesus did start.

 

[dianaiad]

I haven’t had any Mormons here for quite some time. The last time they were here I spoke to them and answered questions about the area. They are usually very nice kids who think they are doing the right thing which I respect although totally disagree with what they teach and believe. If I had the chance again I would print out some tracks from this website for them and hope that they would read them and come into the one church that Jesus did start.

If you have some ‘tracts’ that do not reference Mormonism in any way, they would be very interested in them. I would have been…still am.

However, as far as I’ve seen (and I’ve seen a boat load of 'em) there aren’t any tracts out there that reference Mormonism (that is, do any sort of comparison of beliefs between Mormonism and anything else) that is at all accurate. If it’s not accurate, it’s not useful.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, I am saying that if I did pray a rosary with you, it would be mocking your beliefs. Since that is how I feel about it, then if I did it, it WOULD be mocking your beliefs…because that is what I would intend to do.

So I don’t.

Get it now?

sure thing

 

[Jerusha]

However, as far as I’ve seen (and I’ve seen a boat load of 'em) there aren’t any tracts out there that reference Mormonism (that is, do any sort of comparison of beliefs between Mormonism and anything else) that is at all accurate. If it’s not accurate, it’s not useful.

It would take an entire book to compare and contrast Catholicism to Mormonism. And the first thing would be to point out the “good stuff” in the Book of Mormon, and how LDS people have difficulty in finding those parts and following them because the text is so badly written.

for example, the Jaredites exterminated each other because of a blood feud, and revenge. And some LDS carry on blood-feud principles, putting themselves at risk for serious consequences.

 

[mfbukowski]

Thought I would offer my 8 cents

I am 41 years old and have never seen a " live " missionary.

I wonder if it is location based or what ??? ( I live in Michigan )

I must say, being Catholic, I respect the dedication and work that these young men commit to. I wish Catholics did more of this.

At any rate, if missionaries knocked on my door I would warmly welcome them in my home and would love to share perspectives and a smile with them.

Peace,
CJ

If you PM me your address, I will be glad to set up a meeting – better yet go to mormon.org and request one. You will be the happy recipient of a visit from the real live Mormon missionaries! I have lots of Mormon relatives in Michigan.

 

[majick275]

If you PM me your address, I will be glad to set up a meeting – better yet go to mormon.org and request one. You will be the happy recipient of a visit from the real live Mormon missionaries! I have lots of Mormon relatives in Michigan.

and in case any one was deceived…here is the ONLY reason that mormons come trolling on these boards…

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

If you have some ‘tracts’ that do not reference Mormonism in any way, they would be very interested in them. I would have been…still am.

However, as far as I’ve seen (and I’ve seen a boat load of 'em) there aren’t any tracts out there that reference Mormonism (that is, do any sort of comparison of beliefs between Mormonism and anything else) that is at all accurate. If it’s not accurate, it’s not useful.

That’s the fundamental perceptual handicap that Mormons suffer from: their religion is sui generis, ex nihilo: out of nothing.

No Christian organization is publishing the BOM and other tomes from SLC. It is a religion of ONE (though those offshoots really do embarrass mormon historians with their reliance on J Smith’s ‘eternal ordinances’ and self-styled ‘direct link from God.’)

Dianaiad: you can never know Christianity by looking at the world through mormon glasses. It distorts your view. It gives you a smugness, a pride, that others are in ‘apostasy’ and that your religion is the TRUE one.

Of course, for you there are no ‘accurate’ tracts. You don’t desire instruction or a testing of your tenets: you crave being in the know and having secret, esoteric passwords about ‘celestial marriage’ [contrary to Jesus’ teaching there is NO marriage in Heaven] and many gods.

Give it a break. Go troll among the Islamists; at least there you will find kindred spirits who are patriarchal, nationalistic, redactive, secretive and ignorant of textual and historical proofs.

Go in peace.

Robert

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Of course, for you there are no ‘accurate’ tracts. You don’t desire instruction or a testing of your tenets: you crave being in the know and having secret, esoteric passwords about ‘celestial marriage’ [contrary to Jesus’ teaching there is NO marriage in Heaven] and many gods.

I am aware of Matthew 22:29-30 where Jesus tells the Sadducees that in the resurrection we don’t marry and no one is given in marriage, but is there another verse that you are thinking of?

I am not sure what the Mormon answer to this verse would be, but just looking at it I could see them potentially saying that no one will be getting married or will be given in marriage because those in heaven will already be married to their spouse.But I am not Mormon and there is the whole problem with the verse about “being like angels” in heaven, who I believe are not married.

Is there another verse dealing with this?

EDIT I just re-read this verse and read it in context (regarding the widowed and seven brothers and who’s she will be in heaven) and it appears to be a very damaging verse to the Mormon belief in eternal marriage.

LDS members:

What say you?

God bless

 

[mfbukowski]

Even though the discovery of the nag hammadi literature shows no similarity to that and the bom.

Very very wrong. You should get up to speed on contemporary Mormon scholarship on that one. In fact, to me the dead sea scrolls and nag hammadi show that there were documents supressed by the Catholic church which should have been canonical. The idea that the catholic church was the repository for christian texts is… arguable. Unless of course we define christianity as catholicism, which of course begs the question. They were the repository of the texts that made christianity look “Catholic” to the catholics only. Look at the Hymn of the Soul in the Acts of Judas Thomas found here and you will see something which parallels the Book of Mormon plan of salvation to a T. Read the notes and the page before and after while you are at it. And there are many many other references.

 

[zerinus]

I am aware of Matthew 22:29-30 where Jesus tells the Sadducees that in the resurrection we don’t marry and no one is given in marriage, but is there another verse that you are thinking of?

I am not sure what the Mormon answer to this verse would be, but just looking at it I could see them potentially saying that no one will be getting married or will be given in marriage because those in heaven will already be married to their spouse.But I am not Mormon and there is the whole problem with the verse about “being like angels” in heaven, who I believe are not married.

Is there another verse dealing with this?

EDIT I just re-read this verse and read it in context (regarding the widowed and seven brothers and who’s she will be in heaven) and it appears to be a very damaging verse to the Mormon belief in eternal marriage.

LDS members:

What say you?

God bless

We don’t say that marriages are automatically eternal. If that is what we said, you would be right; but we don’t. Our doctrine teaches that marriage becomes eternal only when it is solemnized by the authority of the priesthood for time and all eternity, that nobody else has except us. The greatest majority of marriages that are or have been performed in the world are not performed by that means, and therefore they are not eternal. What Jesus was referring to in Matthew 22:29-30 was not eternal marriage. He was referring to the kind of marriage that Jews and the rest of the world were accustomed to—which was not eternal. This is made clear in modern LDS scripture:

D&C 132:

15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

zerinus

 

[mfbukowski]

I haven’t had any Mormons here for quite some time. The last time they were here I spoke to them and answered questions about the area. They are usually very nice kids who think they are doing the right thing which I respect although totally disagree with what they teach and believe. If I had the chance again I would print out some tracks from this website for them and hope that they would read them and come into the one church that Jesus did start.

With all due respect, the tracts on this website are not well written and don’t even show what we believe and are totally useless with any one who understand what we DO believe.

 

[mfbukowski]

It would take an entire book to compare and contrast Catholicism to Mormonism. And the first thing would be to point out the “good stuff” in the Book of Mormon, and how LDS people have difficulty in finding those parts and following them because the text is so badly written.

for example, the Jaredites exterminated each other because of a blood feud, and revenge. And some LDS carry on blood-feud principles, putting themselves at risk for serious consequences.

wow. dude, you are getting scary again.

 

[mfbukowski]

and in case any one was deceived…here is the ONLY reason that mormons come trolling on these boards…

CJ and I are buddies and he knew I was joking. He is a true Catholic and informed about Mormonism.

 

[chromatica]

and you will see something which parallels the Book of Mormon plan of salvation to a T. Read the notes and the page before and after while you are at it. And there are many many other references.

Ff you mean a gnostic leaning error…yeah, they are comparable.

 

[PaulDupre]

Very very wrong. You should get up to speed on contemporary Mormon scholarship on that one. In fact, to me the dead sea scrolls and nag hammadi show that there were documents supressed by the Catholic church which should have been canonical. The idea that the catholic church was the repository for christian texts is… arguable. Unless of course we define christianity as catholicism, which of course begs the question. They were the repository of the texts that made christianity look “Catholic” to the catholics only. Look at the Hymn of the Soul in the Acts of Judas Thomas found here and you will see something which parallels the Book of Mormon plan of salvation to a T. Read the notes and the page before and after while you are at it. And there are many many other references.

So you think the Acts of Thomas should have been included in the New Testament? Man, I’m glad you were not sitting on any of the ancient Church Councils. The Acts of Thomas was not even written until the 3rd century AD, so how could it have been an apostolic work worthy of inclusion in the NT?

It was written by a gnostic named Bardaisan in Syria. If you want to identify yourself with the gnostics and other heretics of old, go ahead. Gnostic doctrines were about as Christian as Mormon doctrines, so I think it’s a good match.