The most intense debate between Catholic and Protestant:Mary the Mother of God

[tqualey]

Hi, Sandalwood,

Not knowing the goals you had when you joined CAF, it is difficult to provide an objective measurement to see how things are going. But, I do have a few comments that may be helpful in the long-run.

1.) You have just joined - I am responding to your 15th post, which, in reality indicates you have not posted that much - so your chance to interact with others (as opposed to lurking) has been limited. With little time invested, it is difficult to forumlate an accurate picture of CAF based on this single thread. But, it should not end here…

2.) Your statement about being ‘…disheartened since joining CAF…’ does not show much emotional maturity. I don’t kow what was said that has actually ‘disheartened’ you, but, if your central focus is regret for joining the Catholic Faith - and now you are having regrets… and somehow this post is a fault, well… you have more issues here than any list can deal with. I suggest that you take stock of your view of religion and where is you think you are going with it. I realize this is not a ‘warm-fuzzy’ type statement, but, if you are thinking you made a mistake by joining the Church founded by Christ on Peter because some responses have not met your expectations, let’s put this in perspective: you are talking about the salvation of your eternal soul. Any other consideration is boardering on the superficial. And, finally…

3.) Instead of spending time on CAF, spend time with the RCIA, a Catholic Faith Formation group and/or your parish priest and tell him what you told us. I think you need some serious help and if you don’t get it here, don’t give up on the Catholic Faith - get help from a solid source.

Be at peace and God love you.

I have been so disheartened since joining CAF because of threads like this. I was seriously questioning whether I wanted to remain a Catholic. I am so sad to see Catholics behave like this. I took some time away and realized, that it’s people acting like this, not the “Catholic faith”. I am going to embrace my faith, but definitely avoid these threads. This is not helping to bring people to the Church. This is why people DON’T join the church, or like me, think they’ve made a mistake by joining.

this is very sad to see.

 

[KShaft]

I have to say, except for a handful of harsh posts, I don’t understand why some of you are so upset. Are some being a bit too sensitive? I really have to ask this. One should not allow one less than perfect thread on one Catholic website to determine one’s decision to become or not become Catholic. Just sift out and ignore the few who seem a bit too zealous and see the good that is being presented by many, many others. It is human nature that some become over protective of their faith to the point that sensitivity becomes compromised. Believe me, if any of us posted on an all Protestant forum the treatment would not be all that different unfortunately.

These guys whine too much. Why did he join the Catholic faith? For a social gathering? Does he like the incense and candles?!
You join the faith because it is what you believe. Any other reason and you’re deceiving yourself. How much must we compromise before we watered down the faith so completely that it is just another ‘way of life’ or new age feel good feel the energy nonsense, because we don’t want to hurt someones feelings.
Charity isn’t letting someone lie and defame the church. When they are in the wrong and making heretical statements, and then saying YOU are the heretic for believing what the Catechism says and not their perverted interpretation of scripture (whatever one of the 40,000 different interpretations it might be…) you have to call em on it. Christ never let someone getaway with a lie or blasphemy. An insult that didn’t have to do with his Divine nature or a physical assault was put up with out of love. If someone was wrong about scripture or doctrine he would flat out tell them they were wrong and correct them.
Firmness is not a lack of Charity. Snideness, rudeness and belittling are lacks of Charity.
Because of a few guys on an internet forum dont act the way he/she wants them to, it makes him/her maybe to think about switching faiths? So its just a fashion fit now? Try it on for size? I dont think this person truly believes in the first place. We need more people who are zealous for their faith. Not less. Im pretty sure somewhere in scripture it says something about being either hot or cold and not lukewarm about the faith. People arent perfect. Thats why we go to mass and pray to the Lord in the first place.

 

[FNDRB58]

These guys whine too much. Why did he join the Catholic faith? For a social gathering? Does he like the incense and candles?!
You join the faith because it is what you believe. Any other reason and you’re deceiving yourself. How much must we compromise before we watered down the faith so completely that it is just another ‘way of life’ or new age feel good feel the energy nonsense, because we don’t want to hurt someones feelings.
Charity isn’t letting someone lie and defame the church. When they are in the wrong and making heretical statements, and then saying YOU are the heretic for believing what the Catechism says and not their perverted interpretation of scripture (whatever one of the 40,000 different interpretations it might be…) you have to call em on it. Christ never let someone getaway with a lie or blasphemy. An insult that didn’t have to do with his Divine nature or a physical assault was put up with out of love. If someone was wrong about scripture or doctrine he would flat out tell them they were wrong and correct them.
Firmness is not a lack of Charity. Snideness, rudeness and belittling are lacks of Charity.
Because of a few guys on an internet forum dont act the way he/she wants them to, it makes him/her maybe to think about switching faiths? So its just a fashion fit now? Try it on for size? I dont think this person truly believes in the first place. We need more people who are zealous for their faith. Not less. Im pretty sure somewhere in scripture it says something about being either hot or cold and not lukewarm about the faith. People arent perfect. Thats why we go to mass and pray to the Lord in the first place.

But I don’t think what you described has happened in this thread. I didn’t see the responding Protestants attack the faith…disagreeing with or not understanding the faith is not an attack. No one defamed the church, they disagreed with the Church’s teachings. The only one calling the other a heretic was a Catholic calling a Protestant one. Where you saw lies, I saw misconceptions and/or the expression of other beliefs. There were several Catholic posts that were indeed harsh and only turned people off. As a result we are no longer talking about Mary and those who may have been pursuaded to believe may now be discouraged. Some may have felt they defended the faith but they also didn’t pursuade anyone and only turned them away. There were periods of dialogue that were civil and productive, then a few started throwing wrenches in and disturbed the process. One can inform without compromising. I can stand firm in my faith and explain it to others with love and charity. One can as easily respond to someone who they may feel is attacking by explaining their error using solid reason and biblical references, etc. I did not read any insulting remarks from Protestants that warranted a toungue lashing. I read disagreements and yes some misconceptions…It is then that we have the opportunity to teach.

 

[jmcdzzz]

Ewtn’s own Fr. Mitch Pacwa, and Dr. Walter Martin go head to head in this old classic christian debate.

Topic: Mary

I think one needs to watch from beginning to end to understand the whole thing
Episode 1
Part one: youtube.com/watch?v=tClS31hNmII&feature=related
Part two: youtube.com/watch?v=K5ZpHODuMNY&feature=related
Part three: youtube.com/watch?v=hga2z0MfLMY&feature=related

But seriously, the host 70% of the time really didn’t take Fr. Pacwa seriously, but in the end in my opinion as we teenagers say that Fr. Pacwa ‘ownd’ that host

I don’t agree. I remember when this show aired in about 1983. This only the first of 4 or 5 episodes. I was a Baptist at the time, as is the host, John Ankerberg. I videotaped it and it used it a lot to show people the errors of the Church. Fr. Pacwa seems reactionary, not ready for the likes of Dr. Martin, and Martin wipes the floor with him. John Ankerberg does as many TV hosts do, edits the tape to his own end. He never had any intention of showing true Catholic faith or doctrine. His purpose was to tear it down. Martin knew Boetnner and they were cut from the same cloth.

Thankfully, I eventually became Catholic myself in spite of Martin and Boetnner.

 

[FNDRB58]

I don’t agree. I remember when this show aired in about 1983. This only the first of 4 or 5 episodes. I was a Baptist at the time, as is the host, John Ankerberg. I videotaped it and it used it a lot to show people the errors of the Church. Fr. Pacwa seems reactionary, not ready for the likes of Dr. Martin, and Martin wipes the floor with him. John Ankerberg does as many TV hosts do, edits the tape to his own end. He never had any intention of showing true Catholic faith or doctrine. His purpose was to tear it down. Martin knew Boetnner and they were cut from the same cloth.

Thankfully, I eventually became Catholic myself in spite of Martin and Boetnner.

It only “appeared” that Martin wiped the floor with Father Pacwa because as you said Akenberg editted it for the show. Could some of that editted tape of Father Pacwa still be on his cutting room floor? I am sure you haven’t read all the posts so I will reiterate that it was two against one in that “debate”. It wasn’t even a debate, it was a farce. Father Pacwa had two people coming at him, often one right after the other with little time to respond. And Akenberg put up visual aids for Martin, one after the other and on and on with dialogue that seemingly was too reverential of our Blessed Mother. Father Pacwa hardly had time to answer one of the quotes much less the dozen that was shown on the screen. What a farce that was. Father Pacwa is so knowledgable that if he only had time to refute everything Martin and Akenberg were throwing at him he would have certainly faired better. Alas, so it went.

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

I listened to the MP3s of the 5 discussions between Fr.Mich Pacwa and Dr.Walter Martin it was ok but personally I think Pacwa deserved more time. Pacwa was interupted alot and it wasnt fair.

Dr.Walter Martin was very passionate about the whole Marian issue and stated quite emphatically:

I want to make it clear at the beginning that I put much emphasis upon knowing the doctrine of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology because if any one doctrine in the Roman Catholic formula of theology would cause us, on Biblical grounds, to withdraw from fellowship with them, this would be the doctrine. Walter Martin, The Roman Catholic Church in History (Livingston, NJ: Christian Research Institute, Inc., 1960), pp. 45-46.

Consider once again the following comments by Pius XII and the remarks of Dr. Walter Martin both before and after:

This is the Mary of Scripture: “The handmaiden of the Lord.” This is the Mary of Scripture: “I have rejoiced in God, my Saviour.” But here is the Mary of Roman Catholic theology, from the prayer recited by Pope Pius XII at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiori in Rome on the opening of the Marian Year:

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus, and our Mother Mary… We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

"O, crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O, conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell.

"O, well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church…

“Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications and, above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne, that hymn which is sung today around your altars, You are all beautiful, O Mary. You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people.”

I want to point out that in the opening verses of the Biblical record concerning Mary, and in every verse of Scripture which is applied to her, never once is she ever removed from the category of the “handmaiden of the Lord” who rejoiced in the God of her salvation.

Yet today, after nineteen centuries, I make bold to say that the Roman Catholic Church and its theologians have unhesitatingly applied to her sacred titles alone given in the Bible to God the Father Himself and to Jesus Christ, Our Lord.11

cont.

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

cont. Dr. Walter Martin stated:

*To the contrary, Christ is the author and finisher of faith. Mary is not the “glory and joy and honor of Christians”—Jesus Christ is our glory. In Him is the hope of glory. He is our joy. Christ is the One we honor. Yet it is clear, just from reading this prayer, that titles are conferred upon Mary which belong to God. To “convert the wicked” is the job of the Holy Spirit, who “convicts the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.” Mary does not give comfort to all Christians. That is the very reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit—to be our “Comforter.”

In the Catholic Church the faithful say, “Our life, our sweetness and our hope, to thee we cry, poor banished children of Eve.” Even giving Mary her due right, she is not our life—Jesus Christ is our life. She is not the sweetness of our life—Jesus Christ is the sweetness of our life. Mary is not our hope because “Christ in you is the hope of glory.” From a biblical perspective, it is more than clear that the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholic theology.*

 

[Randy_Carson]

cont. Dr. Walter Martin stated:

To the contrary, Christ is the author and finisher of faith. Mary is not the “glory and joy and honor of Christians”—Jesus Christ is our glory. In Him is the hope of glory. He is our joy. Christ is the One we honor. Yet it is clear, just from reading this prayer, that titles are conferred upon Mary which belong to God. To “convert the wicked” is the job of the Holy Spirit, who “convicts the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.” Mary does not give comfort to all Christians. That is the very reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit—to be our “Comforter.”

In the Catholic Church the faithful say, “Our life, our sweetness and our hope, to thee we cry, poor banished children of Eve.” Even giving Mary her due right, she is not our life—Jesus Christ is our life. She is not the sweetness of our life—Jesus Christ is the sweetness of our life. Mary is not our hope because “Christ in you is the hope of glory.” From a biblical perspective, it is more than clear that the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholic theology.

The passages you quote concerning Mary as the handmaiden of the Lord, etc. reveal Mary’s own humility.

However, in light of what we know to be true about Mary as the Queen Mother of the King, it is right for us to venerate her for Sacred Scripture tells us that “all generations will call [her] blessed.”

The Catholic Church was not the first to honor and glorify Mary - Jesus was. We simply obey the word of God which calls us to “be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly beloved children.” (Ephesians 5:1)

 

[PAboy57]

I find it amazing that one cannot realize the role of the Blessed Mother.

She is the first of all saints and has a special honor and place in the church, is also our spiritual mother. How fitting it is to go to the mother of God, the mother of the Church, for she is the closest to her Son. Saint Louis de Montfort said beautifully, “To Jesus through Mary.” Mary doesn’t replace Jesus, she augments His importance by uniting us to Him in prayer.

You will ask friends, relatives and your pastor to pray for you but you refuse to ask the mother of Jesus, the Son of God the Father, for assistance. Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. How much closer can you get to the Holy Trinity???

My friends you are missing an opportunity to establish a relationship with one so close to God, who loves you and wants to assist you to walk with Jesus. All you have to do is ask and the Blessed Mother will lead you directly to her Son.

I wouldn’t want to have to answer to Jesus why I failed to recognize the signifigance of His mother nor paid her the proper respect she deserves. It is never to late to ask for Mary’s help as she loves you and wants to help you. This is how you can start.

MEMORARE,
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen

 

[Pitcharan]

…MEMORARE,
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen

…MEMORARE,
… despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer them. Amen. (answer “my petitions” not “me”)

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

I find it amazing that one cannot realize the role of the Blessed Mother.

She is the first of all saints and has a special honor and place in the church, is also our spiritual mother. How fitting it is to go to the mother of God, the mother of the Church, for she is the closest to her Son. Saint Louis de Montfort said beautifully, “To Jesus through Mary.” Mary doesn’t replace Jesus, she augments His importance by uniting us to Him in prayer.

You will ask friends, relatives and your pastor to pray for you but you refuse to ask the mother of Jesus, the Son of God the Father, for assistance. Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. How much closer can you get to the Holy Trinity???

My friends you are missing an opportunity to establish a relationship with one so close to God, who loves you and wants to assist you to walk with Jesus. All you have to do is ask and the Blessed Mother will lead you directly to her Son.

I wouldn’t want to have to answer to Jesus why I failed to recognize the signifigance of His mother nor paid her the proper respect she deserves. It is never to late to ask for Mary’s help as she loves you and wants to help you. This is how you can start.

MEMORARE,
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen

Mary is a saint…She faithfully followed the Lord until her death she is with God now and yes she should recieve high honor in the Church for what God did through her. However the Catholic position of Mary goes far beyond honor…you give Mary hyperdulia…which is above the other saints of God. Catholics use titles of Mary that parallel titles given to Christ. Remember the example Dr.Martin gave from Pope Pius in the Marian year?

Anyways why didn’t Jesus mention these of his mother as Catholic theology states? Never do you read “Come to my Mother and I will give you rest”…he said come to ME…and scripture states that Jesus understands our weaknesses…we have access behind the veil. Lastly how many go betweens do we need?
*
We cannot attain to the understanding of Scripture either by study or by the intellect. Your first duty is to begin by prayer. Entreat the Lord to grant you, of His great mercy, the true understanding of His Word. There is no other interpreter of the Word of God than the Author of this Word, as He Himself has said, “They shall be all taught of God” (John 6:45). Hope for nothing from your own labors, from your own understanding: trust solely in God, and in the influence of His Spirit. Believe this on the word of a man who has experience. * Martin Luther

 

[Randy_Carson]

Mary is a saint…She faithfully followed the Lord until her death she is with God now and yes she should recieve high honor in the Church for what God did through her. However the Catholic position of Mary goes far beyond honor…you give Mary hyperdulia…which is above the other saints of God. Catholics use titles of Mary that parallel titles given to Christ. Remember the example Dr.Martin gave from Pope Pius in the Marian year?

Anyways why didn’t Jesus mention these of his mother as Catholic theology states? Never do you read “Come to my Mother and I will give you rest”…he said come to ME…and scripture states that Jesus understands our weaknesses…we have access behind the veil.

Jesus never declared himself to be the second person of the Trinity, either. Not formally, mind you. So what?

Lastly how many go betweens do we need?

As many as Jesus desires to give us. I would encourage you to review the role of the Queen Mother in the royal court of ancient Israel.

We cannot attain to the understanding of Scripture either by study or by the intellect. Your first duty is to begin by prayer. Entreat the Lord to grant you, of His great mercy, the true understanding of His Word. There is no other interpreter of the Word of God than the Author of this Word, as He Himself has said, “They shall be all taught of God” (John 6:45). Hope for nothing from your own labors, from your own understanding: trust solely in God, and in the influence of His Spirit. Believe this on the word of a man who has experience. Martin Luther

More Luther for you:

On Honoring Mary

“[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.” (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)

“No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.” (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537)

On Praying to Mary

“Our prayer should include the Mother of God . . . What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!” You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor . . . We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her . . . He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary.” (Personal Prayer Book, 1522)

“Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation.” (Sermon, March 11, 1523)

On the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb…This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

“Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him…I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”

“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…”

“Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity…When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her…This babble…is without justification…he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

On the Assumption of Mary

In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time he preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:

“There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.”

 

[FNDRB58]

“Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications and, above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne, that hymn which is sung today around your altars, You are all beautiful, O Mary. You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people.”

I want to point out that in the opening verses of the Biblical record concerning Mary, and in every verse of Scripture which is applied to her, never once is she ever removed from the category of the “handmaiden of the Lord” who rejoiced in the God of her salvation.

Yet today, after nineteen centuries, I make bold to say that the Roman Catholic Church and its theologians have unhesitatingly applied to her sacred titles alone given in the Bible to God the Father Himself and to Jesus Christ, Our Lord.11

cont.

In “olden” days the quotes he cited were considered hyperbole. That is often how they spoke. And if you understood the Catholic context of such statements you would understand. Everything we say about Mary is because of God and Jesus. If it seems we give excessive honor to Mary it is only because of her Son. I will search for a more detailed and informed answer to your question about those statements because I can understand your concern about them. You did notice that the Akenberg/Martin team gave him little time to answer. If memory serves he started to and they kept interrupting him and he never was able to finish his original thought. Father Pacwa doesn’t seem to have that “killer” type of personality required in a debate. He has a very nice, respectful demeanor. Believe me, he is a very, very smart, well-read individual and would have aptly answered every one of the charges against Mary but just didn’t get equal time to do so.

Another thing came to mind. The bible doesn’t have everything that ever happened regarding Jesus and his and the apostles teachings. Remember the bible stating that not all the books in the world could contain everything Jesus said. I am paraphrasing here. Also, you as a Protestant are at a disadvantage as you believe in the bible only. Jesus established one true apostolic Church and it was a developing church from its infancy to today and much has been revealed and the Church has grown in its understanding of many aspects of the faith. So just to say something is not explicitly or even implicitly stated in a few hundred some odd pages does not mean it does not exist.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PAboy57,

This was a truly inspirational post - and one we all can take to heart.

God bless

I find it amazing that one cannot realize the role of the Blessed Mother.

She is the first of all saints and has a special honor and place in the church, is also our spiritual mother. How fitting it is to go to the mother of God, the mother of the Church, for she is the closest to her Son. Saint Louis de Montfort said beautifully, “To Jesus through Mary.” Mary doesn’t replace Jesus, she augments His importance by uniting us to Him in prayer.

You will ask friends, relatives and your pastor to pray for you but you refuse to ask the mother of Jesus, the Son of God the Father, for assistance. Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. How much closer can you get to the Holy Trinity???

My friends you are missing an opportunity to establish a relationship with one so close to God, who loves you and wants to assist you to walk with Jesus. All you have to do is ask and the Blessed Mother will lead you directly to her Son.

I wouldn’t want to have to answer to Jesus why I failed to recognize the signifigance of His mother nor paid her the proper respect she deserves. It is never to late to ask for Mary’s help as she loves you and wants to help you. This is how you can start.

MEMORARE,
Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thy intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To thee do I come; before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me. Amen

 

[inkaneer]

Mary is a saint…She faithfully followed the Lord until her death she is with God now and yes she should recieve high honor in the Church for what God did through her. However the Catholic position of Mary goes far beyond honor…you give Mary hyperdulia…which is above the other saints of God. Catholics use titles of Mary that parallel titles given to Christ. Remember the example Dr.Martin gave from Pope Pius in the Marian year?

Mary is more than just a saint. She is the mother of God. No other saint has that honor bestowed on them by God except Mary. Does that make her special? YOU BET IT DOES. Our salvation is through Mary because she was part and parcel of the plan of God that we call the Incarnation. Could God have effected man’s salvation without her? SURE HE COULD. HE IS GOD ISN"T HE! BUT He didn’t. So what could have been is a moot question. You protestants have an abridged idea of the Incarnation as simply “the word made flesh” Rarely do I find any protestant who has a larger concept of the Incarnation. As for the titles that Pope Pius XII used, let’s look at them. The pope said:

“We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.”

Who does the Pope say gave Mary these gifts? [by the way the gifts that he speaks of is God’s grace] And is Mary the object of this praise and adoration or is it God who gave the gifts? Again the Popee says:

''O, crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O, conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell."

"Conqueress of evil and death’ harkens back to Genesis 3:15:

“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

Enmity is hatred. Why does Satan hate the woman? Because he sees in her the source of his eventually being conquered. Mary conquered evil and death by bringing forth Christ. Let’s go on. The pope also said:

“O, well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church…”

"Well beloved of God needs no explanation. She was the one choosen of God from all of the billions of women. 'nough said. Let’s go on. The pope said:

“Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications and, above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne, that hymn which is sung today around your altars, You are all beautiful, O Mary. You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people.”

Jesus, while on the cross gave his mother to the youngest Apostle, John. telling him “Behold your mother.” If we are, as we all claim to be, brothers of Jesus and brothers in faith with the Apostles then is not their mother our mother also? I find nothing in the pope’s remarks that in anyway makes Mary into a goddess. Dr. Martin in his anti Catholic zeal slandered Pope Pius XII when Martin said:

“Yet today, after nineteen centuries, I make bold to say that the Roman Catholic Church and its theologians have unhesitatingly applied to her sacred titles alone given in the Bible to God the Father Himself and to Jesus Christ, Our Lord.”

To which I say what sacred titles? When did you or any protestant refer to God as the “Queen of the Universe"or “crystal fountain of faith” or “fragrant lily of all holiness” or “conqueress of evil and death” or [God forbid] ''Mother”? Martin was a lying bigot. I hope he changed his tune before his death. I hear those Jewish boys don’t like people saying nasty things about their mama

CONTINUED>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[inkaneer]

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Anyways why didn’t Jesus mention these of his mother as Catholic theology states? Never do you read “Come to my Mother and I will give you rest”…he said come to ME…and scripture states that Jesus understands our weaknesses…we have access behind the veil. Lastly how many go betweens do we need

*We cannot attain to the understanding of Scripture either by study or by the intellect. Your first duty is to begin by prayer. Entreat the Lord to grant you, of His great mercy, the true understanding of His Word. There is no other interpreter of the Word of God than the Author of this Word, as He Himself has said, “They shall be all taught of God” (John 6:45). Hope for nothing from your own labors, from your own understanding: trust solely in God, and in the influence of His Spirit. Believe this on the word of a man who has experience. * Martin Luther

Well I don’t know how many go betweens we need. Seems to me you have a lot of them in protestantism. You guys are always praying for this person or that person. HEY, here’s an idea why not just let that person pray to God himself. Why does that person need you or anyone else to be a “go between” him and God? I mean look at all the time that you would save. Time that you could then use to pray to God for yourself. Forget the “we” stuff it is everyone for himself. I know, I know, we are supposed to pray for others in the church. Unfortunately your idea of church is really small. Our idea of church includes those in heaven. After all isn’t the Church the Body of Christ and aren’t the souls in heaven also in the Body of Christ? Yeah, I think so.

Since you included a quote from Martin Luther so will I. But you may not like it:

Luther on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity:

“Christ, …was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him… “brothers” really means “cousins” here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.” (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4.1537-39).

*“He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb… .This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.” *(Ibid.)

*“God says… “Mary’s Son is My only Son.” Thus Mary is the Mother of God.” *(Ibid.).

Luther on the Immaculate Conception:

*“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” *(Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).

“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.” (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).

Luther on honoring Mary:

“She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures”. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

“No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.” (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation. 1537).

*“One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace… .Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ…Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.” *(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

Luther on Mary as our Mother:

“It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother. God is his father.” (Sermon. Christmas, 1522)

“Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees…If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.” (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

Luther on Marian devotions:

“Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation.” (Sermon, March 11, 1523).

*“Our prayer should include the Mother of God… .What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!” You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor… .We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her…He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary.” *(Personal Prayer Book, 1522).

Seems to me that Pope Pius XII didn’t say anything about Mary that Martin Luther didn’t say 500 years before. So was Luther wrong? That is a loaded question. If you say yes then what about sola scriptura was he wrong there too? If you say, no, then you got some explaining to do as to why you have deviated from youre protestant roots. I’m sure Dr. Walter Martin, being now in eternity knows the answer but unfortunately he can’t help you. You got to answer yourself.

 

[PAboy57]

Mary is a saint…She faithfully followed the Lord until her death she is with God now and yes she should recieve high honor in the Church for what God did through her. However the Catholic position of Mary goes far beyond honor…you give Mary hyperdulia…which is above the other saints of God. Catholics use titles of Mary that parallel titles given to Christ. Remember the example Dr.Martin gave from Pope Pius in the Marian year?

Anyways why didn’t Jesus mention these of his mother as Catholic theology states? Never do you read “Come to my Mother and I will give you rest”…he said come to ME…and scripture states that Jesus understands our weaknesses…we have access behind the veil. Lastly how many go betweens do we need?
*
We cannot attain to the understanding of Scripture either by study or by the intellect. Your first duty is to begin by prayer. Entreat the Lord to grant you, of His great mercy, the true understanding of His Word. There is no other interpreter of the Word of God than the Author of this Word, as He Himself has said, “They shall be all taught of God” (John 6:45). Hope for nothing from your own labors, from your own understanding: trust solely in God, and in the influence of His Spirit. Believe this on the word of a man who has experience. * Martin Luther

Jesus was preaching for 3 years. Read John where he says Christ did so many other things they could not be contained in all the books in the world – or close to that.

There was so much going on that no way could it all get captured. God gave us enough info to make an informed decision.

You can explain to him someday. As for me I will treat His Mother with respect and devotion.

May Jesus share with you the secret of His Mother some day so you can enjoy all the graces available. Take care my fellow Christian.

 

[PAboy57]

this is what ewtn has on their website. i’ll take their word for it. please check yourself.

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thine intercession was left unaided.
Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.

Amen.

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

FNDRB58: You responded to my post…and you stated:

*In “olden” days the quotes he *[the Pope?—The prayer of Pope Pius I posted…Andrew] cited were considered hyperbole. That is often how they spoke. And if you understood the Catholic context of such statements you would understand.

So the Pope’s prayer used hyperbole concerning Mary? So calling Mary “Queen of the Universe”, saying that Mary is the joy and honour of Christians, hymns that are sung around altars to Mary? Mary converts the wicked? etc. I am glad to know that all those things are exaggeration to make a point. btw “hyperbole” means:

“A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.”

Another example of hyperbole definition: an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “She’s as big as a house.”

For some added info…exaggerate means: . To represent as greater than is actually the case; overstate

These verbs mean to represent something as being larger or greater than it actually is: exaggerated the size of the fish I caught; inflated his own importance; magnifying her part in their success; overstated his income on the loan application.

Here is the prayer again…Catholics on the forum: remember this prayer uses “hyperbole” You don’t have to take it seriously…LOL

But here is the Mary of Roman Catholic theology, from the prayer recited by Pope Pius XII at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiori in Rome on the opening of the Marian Year:

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus, and our Mother Mary… We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

"O, crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O, conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell.

"O, well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church…

“Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications and, above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne, that hymn which is sung today around your altars, You are all beautiful, O Mary. You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people.”

Perhaps the Catholic Marian doctrines are hyperbole:thumbsup:

 

[PRmerger]

Perhaps the Catholic Marian doctrines are hyperbole:thumbsup:

Not at all, Andrew.

By “hyperbole” I think what was meant was more “archaic language”. That is, if you read some midieval spiritual writers, such as Thomas a Kempis, you will see language that sounds to our modern ears to be a bit hyperbolic. That is, it is an archaic use of language.

For example, he says, “Truly to know and despise self is the best and most perfect counsel”

To our modern ears to “despise self” sounds a bit harsh. Clearly, he does not mean “despise” as it is understood today.