The most intense debate between Catholic and Protestant:Mary the Mother of God

[PLeeD]

Yet you ask others to pray for you in your prayer chain and also intercede for others by praying for their intentions?

Why can’t you do that with Mary as well?

To be honest, I lack any good reason to assume she would hear me. Likewise, I have no reason to assume that any other dead people would hear prayers of the living. Maybe I just haven’t been taught why they would, but that is the primary reason why I wouldn’t.

 

[PRmerger]

To be honest, I lack any good reason to assume she would hear me. Likewise, I have no reason to assume that any other dead people would hear prayers of the living. Maybe I just haven’t been taught why they would, but that is the primary reason why I wouldn’t.

Do you believe in Eternal Life? Or is it Eternal Death?

(I’m not sure if the AOG believe in “soul sleep” or not)

So if it’s Eternal Life you believe in, then are those in heave ALIVE or dead?

 

[1holycatholic]

To be honest, I lack any good reason to assume she would hear me. Likewise, I have no reason to assume that any other dead people would hear prayers of the living. Maybe I just haven’t been taught why they would, but that is the primary reason why I wouldn’t.

The fact that the Saints in Heaven can hear your prayers is in the Bible, in Tradition and in the historical record. What is the basis for your objection?

 

[inkaneer]

To be honest, I lack any good reason to assume she would hear me. Likewise, I have no reason to assume that any other dead people would hear prayers of the living. Maybe I just haven’t been taught why they would, but that is the primary reason why I wouldn’t.

This is protestantism at its worst. Placing physical limitations on spiritual beings. In protestantism the church exists here and now. Once you die you are out of the church. You spend a lifetime in the church and when you die they kick you out. There is no concept of the Body of Christ existing in heaven in protestantism. So physical death places a barrier on them which they cannot find a way around. Compare that idea to the early christians who on their way to martyrdom walked into the Circus Maximus sinking hymns of praise and joyful in the knowledge that they will conquer both the first death as well as the second. Yet protestants are what come to mind when I read what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28L

“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

The saints live and as living spiritual beings they do not have the limitations of a physical body. They hear very well, thank you, and do it without the limitation of needing ears.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PLeeD,

Thanks for your thoughts… The whole idea of having a forum is so that different ideas can be discussed from different points of view.

I don’t think anyone is counseling others to be, “…abjectly insincere…”. Following one’s enlightened conscience is what we are all to do. After reading Luke (chapters 1 & 2) and John 2, if you still maintain this view of yours…I’ve done all I can do…except keep you in my prayers.

God bless

Tqualey, I’ll throw in my two cents

I don’t disagree with anything you posted about Mary. She is truly blessed above all other women. Problem is, I don’t see the point of fixating on her as an object of overt affection. The other problem for me is, I don’t feel a bit drawn toward praying to her, or singing songs about her. If I were to do so it would be abjectly insincere. I don’t think that’s what she or Jesus would want.

So again, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote in that post. At the same time I don’t see any need to go any further in esteeming Mary. If you think that equals disrespect, then I’m sorry. But I can live with it, and I think Jesus and Mary are OK with it too.

Honestly, I find reading Paul’s writings to be far more inspiring than reflection on Mary. I’d feel more comfortable praying to him, but I don’t and won’t short of being drawn to by the Holy Spirit. I worship God, and Jesus is my savior. I don’t need to pray to any others.

As for PAboy’s concern for his brothers in Christ, I haven’t seen anything that dictates we will be judged based on our esteem for Mary. I have a long list of concerns about standing before Jesus on judgement day, but this issue is not on that list

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Inkaneer,

How about just “protestantism” … as opposed to “…protestantism at its worst…”. This sounds insulting.

I agree with everything else you said.

God bless

This is protestantism at its worst. Placing physical limitations on spiritual beings. In protestantism the church exists here and now. Once you die you are out of the church. You spend a lifetime in the church and when you die they kick you out. There is no concept of the Body of Christ existing in heaven in protestantism. So physical death places a barrier on them which they cannot find a way around. Compare that idea to the early christians who on their way to martyrdom walked into the Circus Maximus sinking hymns of praise and joyful in the knowledge that they will conquer both the first death as well as the second. Yet protestants are what come to mind when I read what Jesus said in Matthew 10:28L

“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

The saints live and as living spiritual beings they do not have the limitations of a physical body. They hear very well, thank you, and do it without the limitation of needing ears.

 

[PLeeD]

I appreciate your prayers!

How about just “protestantism” … as opposed to “…protestantism at its worst…”. This sounds insulting.

Correction; it is insulting. I’m utilizing the ignore list, so I don’t see some posts unless others quote it.

I have no doubt that those souls are alive and well. I just imagine they are busy basking in the Glory of God, and giving Him the praise He is due.

I’ll take a look at the chapters you recommended looking for information showing the Saints are indeed listening to us. If scriptural details regarding the nature of the pre-rapture afterlife are available, I’m all ears.

 

[PLeeD]

After reading Luke (chapters 1 & 2) and John 2, if you still maintain this view of yours…I’ve done all I can do…except keep you in my prayers.

Those chapters describe Jesus birth and early life. I’ve read them dozens of times. Luke 2 contains one of my favorite passages. The description of the angel appearing to Mary, which is quoted by Linus in “A Charlie Brown Christmas”. Beautiful!

There is nothing there that tells me Mary will hear and assist with my prayers to God.

My question is, where does the bible talk about the dead Saints hearing our prayers?

 

[inkaneer]

Hi, Inkaneer,

How about just “protestantism” … as opposed to “…protestantism at its worst…”. This sounds insulting.

I agree with everything else you said.

God bless

Well, okay, I was trying to show the logical end of the protestant idea of church that it contradicted Jesus’ words about death of the body [physical death] and death of the soul [spiritual death]. We Catholics, like the early christians, do not believe we die at physical death. Instead we believe we are freed from the limitations of physical existence and experience God in the Church glorious where the lame walk, the blind see and everyone can hear.

 

[PRmerger]

My question is, where does the bible talk about the dead Saints hearing our prayers?

Firstly, remember if you believe in Eternal Life then they are ALIVE saints.

And, as the Bible is essentially SILENT on whether these saints can hear us (it’s arguable, but there are verses which imply that they can hear our prayers, but let’s just agree for now that the Bible doesn’t say that those in heaven can hear our prayers…) to say that they CAN"T hear our prayers is also not Biblical.

Clearly, the Bible is not the pillar and foundation of truth, for* it speaks not* on this matter.

To say that they cannot hear our prayers, when it says nothing of the sort in Scripture, is a man-made tradition.

 

[1holycatholic]

Firstly, remember if you believe in Eternal Life then they are ALIVE saints.

And, as the Bible is essentially SILENT on whether these saints can hear us (it’s arguable, but there are verses which imply that they can hear our prayers, but let’s just agree for now that the Bible doesn’t say that those in heaven can hear our prayers…) to say that they CAN"T hear our prayers is also not Biblical.

Clearly, the Bible is not the pillar and foundation of truth, for* it speaks not* on this matter.

To say that they cannot hear our prayers, when it says nothing of the sort in Scripture, is a man-made tradition.

catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
[bibledrb]Revelation 5:8[/bibledrb]

 

[inkaneer]

Those chapters describe Jesus birth and early life. I’ve read them dozens of times. Luke 2 contains one of my favorite passages. The description of the angel appearing to Mary, which is quoted by Linus in “A Charlie Brown Christmas”. Beautiful!

There is nothing there that tells me Mary will hear and assist with my prayers to God.

My question is, where does the bible talk about the dead Saints hearing our prayers?

Where does the biblke speak of the saints being dead??? My Bible says that God is the God of the living not the dead. Once again the protestant hang up with physical death shows itself. And if I have to quote myself from just a few posts back:

"We Catholics, like the early christians, do not believe we die at physical death. Instead we believe we are freed from the limitations of physical existence and experience God in the Church glorious where the lame walk, the blind see and everyone can hear.

 

[PLeeD]

Firstly, remember if you believe in Eternal Life then they are ALIVE saints.

Their souls are alive, but their bodies have died. They are no longer physically present on the earth. That is what I mean.

To say that they cannot hear our prayers, when it says nothing of the sort in Scripture, is a man-made tradition.

Or possibly vice versa. I’m unconvinced.

I keep hearing about early church fathers that wrote about the early church. Are there web sources for translations of the original writings that describe this?

 

[PRmerger]

Their souls are alive, but their bodies have died. They are no longer physically present on the earth. That is what I mean.

Fair enough.

So what Scripture tells you that a soul that’s alive in heaven cannot hear prayers of the Body of Christ on earth?

Or vice versa. I’m unconvinced.

Again. Fair enough. But you have an un-biblical man-made tradition when you say that the souls in heaven cannot hear our prayers.

I keep hearing about early church fathers that wrote about the early church. Are there web sources for translations of the original writings?

Try this: newadvent.org/fathers/

 

[Axion]

There is nothing there that tells me Mary will hear and assist with my prayers to God.

My question is, where does the bible talk about the dead Saints hearing our prayers?

Fiirstly The Saints departed are still living-

Matt: 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

All Christians are asked to share in intercessionary Prayer.

“I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy 2:1-5

From this passage we can see two important things

1. Paul is asking fellow Christians to pray and intercede with God for those in authority and for other third parties.
2. These prayers and intercessions are being made on behalf of other people, and to God.

Why is intercessionary prayer important?

James 5: 16-18 " …The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."

Job 42: 7-10 After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eli’phaz the Te’manite: “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.** Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly**; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. So Eli’phaz the Te’manite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Na’amathite went and did what the LORD had told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer. And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends; and the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.”

Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better. Most of us don’t know an Elijah. That is why we ask the Heavenly Saints to share in our prayers. And as we can see from Revelation 5, they do.

Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: …and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The Saints departed know about our condition on earth-

At the Transfiguration both Moses and Elijah where there speaking to Jesus about His Passion. (Lk 9:28ff)

Lk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
(See also Lk 16:25, Jn 8:56)

All Christians wherever they may be, form one undivided body in Christ. All members of that body, rejoice or suffer together

1 Corinthians:12.12 For just as the body is one and has many members, **and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many…
25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. **27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PLeeD,

You’re welcome. Now, don’t go and get all mushy on me… We have some serious differences that need to be addressed. Let’s get started…

I appreciate your prayers!

Correction; it is insulting. I’m utilizing the ignore list, so I don’t see some posts unless others quote it.

I have no doubt that those souls are alive and well. I just imagine they are busy basking in the Glory of God, and giving Him the praise He is due.

I’ll take a look at the chapters you recommended looking for information showing the Saints are indeed listening to us. If scriptural details regarding the nature of the pre-rapture afterlife are available, I’m all ears.

Now, this is not meant to sound mathematical … but, if were were to use a stop watch from the creation of the universe (Gen 1:1) and time it against Eternity … which time do you think would be longer? Honest…which one. Well, eternity isn’t just a L-O-N-G time - but no time at all… so, when looking at how long things will be from when we are joined to our bodies at conception until separated from our bodies at death - to reunited to our bodies at the Resurrection… well, blink of an eye comes to mind when measuring speed. It only seems long to us because we are totally in time and this is all we know. So, don’t think of the Saints being reunited with their bodies a long time from now - it is within that blink of an eye!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PLeeD,

I don’t want to be critical - but if this was your idea of a ‘Cliff’s Notes’ summary of the two Chapters of Luke … you would have crashed and burned! Now, this is embarrassing…correcting a Protestant about the Bible… But here goes:

Luke 1 consists of 80 verses. There is the:

Introduction 01-04
Zechariah’s experience in believing God 05-26
Mary’s experience in believing God 27-38
Mary visits Elizabeth 39-58
Naming of John the Baptist 59-80

Luke 2 consists of 52 verses. There is the:

Birth of Christ 01-21
Simeon and Anna 22-40
Finding of Child Jesus in Temple 41-52

Now, this is NOT going to requrie a leap of faith - merely reading what is there. Look at the amount of space devoted to Mary and actions taken by Mary in thesse 132 verses. Yes, the Birth of Christ is there Lk 2:2-21 but look what attention is given to Mary. Now, this is not an idel exercise in counting verses - but a demonstration that Scripture spends a lot of time and detail describing what the Mother of God did. And, when you consider that this is the Inspired Word of God … well… to my way of thinking, dismissing this as unimportant is a rash indeed.

Christ died for our sins and opend the Gates of Heaven - Mary didn’t. But, May’s “Yes” acting through the Grace of God made it all possible. Her words to the servants at the Marriage Feast of Cana resound to this day, “Do whatever He tells you.” Yes, I think she is truly worthy of special honor - and, if you don’t … well… you may want to reconsider your position while you have the time…

God bless

Those chapters describe Jesus birth and early life. I’ve read them dozens of times. Luke 2 contains one of my favorite passages. The description of the angel appearing to Mary, which is quoted by Linus in “A Charlie Brown Christmas”. Beautiful!

There is nothing there that tells me Mary will hear and assist with my prayers to God.

My question is, where does the bible talk about the dead Saints hearing our prayers?

 

[PAboy57]

This is just one statement made by St. Louis de Montfort regarding our Blessed Mother from his True Devotion to Mary (I thought I read that St. Louis is possibly being considered as a new Doctor of the Church).

“The whole world is filled with her glory, and this is especially true of Christian peoples, who have chosen her as guardian and protector of kingdoms, provinces, dioceses, and towns. Many cathedrals are consecrated to God in her name. There is no church without an altar dedicated to her, no country or region without at least one of her miraculous images where all kinds of afflictions are cured and all sorts of benefits received. Many are the confraternities and associations honoring her as patron; many are the orders under her name and protection; many are the members of sodalities and religious of all congregations who voice her praises and make known her compassion. There is not a child who does not praise her by lisping a Hail Mary. There is scarcely a sinner, however hardened, who does not possess some spark of confidence in her. The very devils in hell, while fearing her, show her respect.”

I think St. Louis loved and respected our Blessed Mother with his whole heart. He has written so much about her. I encourage anyone to read his work and learn more about Mary.

Take care and God Bless.

 

[Chris258]

Fiirstly The Saints departed are still living-

Matt: 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

All Christians are asked to share in intercessionary Prayer.

“I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus.” 1Timothy 2:1-5

From this passage we can see two important things

1. Paul is asking fellow Christians to pray and intercede with God for those in authority and for other third parties.
2. These prayers and intercessions are being made on behalf of other people, and to God.

Why is intercessionary prayer important?

James 5: 16-18 " …The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."

Job 42: 7-10 After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Eli’phaz the Te’manite: “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.** Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly**; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. So Eli’phaz the Te’manite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Na’amathite went and did what the LORD had told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer. And the LORD restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends; and the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.”

Holiness strengthens prayer, so the holier and more righteous the person who prays for us, the better. Most of us don’t know an Elijah. That is why we ask the Heavenly Saints to share in our prayers. And as we can see from Revelation 5, they do.

Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: …and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The Saints departed know about our condition on earth-

At the Transfiguration both Moses and Elijah where there speaking to Jesus about His Passion. (Lk 9:28ff)

Lk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
(See also Lk 16:25, Jn 8:56)

All Christians wherever they may be, form one undivided body in Christ. All members of that body, rejoice or suffer together

1 Corinthians:12.12 For just as the body is one and has many members, **and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many…
25 that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. **27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

A well-presented Scriptural case for the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. Hits every major objection. I especially liked the support from Luke concerning the rejoicing in Heaven over the sinner’s repentance.

This is part of what it means for death to lose its sting. Death is no barrier to Christ’s Body; the Church is One.

 

[1holycatholic]

A well-presented Scriptural case for the doctrine of the Communion of Saints. Hits every major objection. I especially liked the support from Luke concerning the rejoicing in Heaven over the sinner’s repentance.

This is part of what it means for death to lose its sting. Death is no barrier to Christ’s Body; the Church is One.

It should be painfully obvious that what is written in the Bible simply doesn’t matter to Sola Scriptura adherents, it is their interpretation that matters. No matter how good your case is their personal interpretation trumps you every time. It’s not just a rail against the Church, they do it to other Protestants too. That’s why there are tens of thousands of Sola Scrioptura Protestant denominations all teaching different “truths” from the same Catholic book - the Bible.:bible1: