The most intense debate between Catholic and Protestant:Mary the Mother of God

[Axion]

Just me Andrew:

I want to point out that in the opening verses of the Biblical record concerning Mary, and in every verse of Scripture which is applied to her, never once is she ever removed from the category of the “handmaiden of the Lord” who rejoiced in the God of her salvation.

Not true.

“Handmaiden of the Lord” is used by Mary of herself. When she is spoken of with the inspiration of the divine, FAR higher praise is used.

1. Mary is the ONLY person in the Bible to be entitled “Full of Grace” (Kecharitomene).
2. See LUKE: 1:41
   And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
   1:42
   And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, **Blessed **art thou among women, and **blessed **is the fruit of thy womb

The word for **blessed ** used in these verses is Eulogio, which is used twice of Mary in Luke, in the repeated phrase Blessed are you among women. Once by the Angel Gabriel, and again by Elizabeth inspired by the Holy Spirit.

You may not realise that there are TWO words used for “Blessed” in the New Testament. The more common is **Makarizo ** (Strong 3106), sometimes translated as “happy”. By far the rarer is **Eulogio ** (Strong 2127), meaning to “praise, celebrate with praises, bless, or consecrate,”. The word “Eulogise” comes from this word. A rare distinction.

In the four Gospels **Eulogio ** is only used a total of 26 times:

2 times of Mary
12 times of God/Jesus
3 times at the consecration of the bread and wine of the Last Supper
4 times at the transformation of the loaves and fishes
2 times of the Apostles after the resurrection
2 times allegorically (Bless those who curse you)
1 time of the children barred from Jesus

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

PRmerger

I have heard the hyperbole defense before. I have no doubt that there was hyperbole used back then…In fact even Martin Luther used hyperbole, sometimes he used extreeme hyperbole to make a point e.g. when he wrote that letter to Melancthon “Let your sins be strong”.

Many Catholics take Luther out of context in that letter and try to make it look like Luther is teaching antinomianism (hard to believe since in his Catechism the 10 commandments are listed first).

My question would be…since I gave the definitions to the word “hyperbole” and “exaggerate”, would you say that prayer of Pope Pius fits such definitions? Lastly do you have any more examples of Marian hyperbole used by anybody?

– Andrew

**I do not think I should care to go on worshipping a Madonna even if she did wink. One cannot make much out of a wink. We want something more than that from the object of our adoration.
Charles Spurgeon **

 

[PRmerger]

My question would be…since I gave the definitions to the word “hyperbole” and “exaggerate”, would you say that prayer of Pope Pius fits such definitions? Lastly do you have any more examples of Marian hyperbole used by anybody?

– Andrew

If by “hyperbole” you mean archaic language, then yes, I think Pope Pius’ language fits the example.

Another example of the use of archaic language with regard to Mary would be from Pope Pius X: (AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM–encyclical on the Immaculate Conception):

*For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them. Now these latter can only have one object, which is that we should fully carry out what the divine Son of Mary commands.
*

Clearly, “worship” here is not the adoration due to God alone. It is an example of an archaic us of the word “worship”, which has evolved to mean, today, adoration of God alone.

 

[inkaneer]

FNDRB58: You responded to my post…and you stated:

*In “olden” days the quotes he *[the Pope?—The prayer of Pope Pius I posted…Andrew] cited were considered hyperbole. That is often how they spoke. And if you understood the Catholic context of such statements you would understand.

So the Pope’s prayer used hyperbole concerning Mary? So calling Mary “Queen of the Universe”, saying that Mary is the joy and honour of Christians, hymns that are sung around altars to Mary? Mary converts the wicked? etc. I am glad to know that all those things are exaggeration to make a point. btw “hyperbole” means:

“A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This book weighs a ton.”

Another example of hyperbole definition: an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “She’s as big as a house.”

For some added info…exaggerate means: . To represent as greater than is actually the case; overstate

These verbs mean to represent something as being larger or greater than it actually is: exaggerated the size of the fish I caught; inflated his own importance; magnifying her part in their success; overstated his income on the loan application.

Here is the prayer again…Catholics on the forum: remember this prayer uses “hyperbole” You don’t have to take it seriously…LOL

But here is the Mary of Roman Catholic theology, from the prayer recited by Pope Pius XII at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiori in Rome on the opening of the Marian Year:

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus, and our Mother Mary… We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

"O, crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O, conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell.

"O, well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church…

“Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications and, above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne, that hymn which is sung today around your altars, You are all beautiful, O Mary. You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people.”

Perhaps the Catholic Marian doctrines are hyperbole:thumbsup:

(Edited)

Now, what Just Me Andrew posted [see above] alleging it to be the prayer of Pope Pius XII is a fake. It is a fraud. Oh some parts are genuine for sure but the prayer has been picked apart and sections added such as in the first paragraph the bit about “…We adore and praise the peerless richness **of the sublime gifts **with which God has filled you …” Pope Pius XII didn’t write that at all. What he wrote was, “…We admire and praise the peerless richness with which God has filled you…”. Notice how the word ADORE was substituted for ADMIRE. Nice huh? Real sly and if one was not careful easy to not notice. Notice also the part about “…of the sublime gifts…” was added. Pope Pius didn’t write that either.

I am posting the complete prayer of Pope Pius XII for the Marian year of 1954 for all to see. But I have to ask the question why someone who claims to be a christian has to resort to falsehoods to advance his belief system over Catholicism.(Edited) And we didn’t get the truth from him as far as Pope Pius XII prayer for the Marian year of 1954.

Here is a note to other Catholics on this forum. Never, never, never, take the word of a protestant, (Edited: or anyone else for that matter?) especially when they quote something Catholic. Always check it out yourself. Always require that they provide the proper reference notation. If from a website demand they give the URL. The reason is simple. They use protestant sources which are of dubious credibility. They do not use prime source material for anything Catholic, which, of course, would be an orthodox Catholic source. These protestant sources may not be interested in truth and in my experience some of them do contain material that can only be described as pure unadulterated hatred and/or bigotry. In short there are alot of Jack Chick and Lorraine Boettner wannabes out there in protestant land. So as scripture says in 1 Thessalonians 5:21:

“but test everything; hold fast what is good,”

Continued next post…

 

[inkaneer]

Continuing…

Here then is the complete prayer of Pope Pius XII for the Marian year of 1954 as copied from the website: catholicdoors.com/index.htm It is a beautiful prayer from a man who had a deep devotion to the Mother of God and for the Marian apparitions at Fatima. On May 13, 1917 Pope Bennedict XV consecrated Eugenio Pacelli a bishop . Does that date mean anything???

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty,
and impelled by the anxieties of the world,
we cast ourselves into your arms,
O immaculate mother of Jesus and our mother,
Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart
appeasement of our ardent desires
and a safe harbor from the tempests
which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults
and overwhelmed by infinite misery,
we admire and praise the peerless richness
with which God has filled you
above every other mere creature,
from the first moment of your conception
until the day on which He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O Crystal Fountain of Faith,
bathe our minds with the eternal truths.
O Fragrant Lily of all holiness,
captivate our heart with your heavenly perfume.
O conqueress of evil and death,
inspire in us a deep horror of sin
which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave to hell.
O well beloved of God,
hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart
in this year dedicated to you (1954).
Bend tenderly over our aching wounds,
convert the wicked,
dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed,
comfort the poor and humble,
quench hatreds,
sweeten harshesss,
safeguard the flower of purity in you,
protect the Holy Church,
make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness.
In your name,
resounding harmoniously in Heaven
may they recognize that they are brothers
and that the nations are one family
upon which there may shine forth
the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive O most sweet mother our humble supplications
and obtain for us that one day,
happy with you,
we may repeat before your throne
that hymn which is sung today around your altars…

“You are all beautiful O Mary,
you are the glory,
you are the joy,
you are the honor of our people.”

Amen."

To ‘Just Me Andrew’, I say you have some answering to do and you can start by providing us with the URL of the website from which you copied Pope Pius XII’ prayer because right now your credibility on this site is hovering at or below zero.

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

I got the Marian prayer from the transcripts of Dr.Walter Martin and Mich Pacwa debate on Mary and requoted on the John Ankerberg site articles concerning Mary. I apollogize if the quotes were wrong. Thank you for giving me the full prayer I have saved it. Any mistakes concerning the prayer I apollogize. I retract the bad quote.

Concerning the prayer you have given me…most of the same titles are used of Mary and my basic obejections remain.I can go through the whole prayer and show the problems.

Thank you for pointing out what you did. Theological issues remain…My premise stands that there are titles given to Mary that parallel Christ…to an extent. Mary is exalted with titles that are extra biblical and extreemly excessive. --Andrew

 

[PRmerger]

…My premise stands that there are titles given to Mary that parallel Christ…to an extent. Mary is exalted with titles that are extra biblical and extreemly excessive. --Andrew

Andrew, Christianity teaches that all of us can parallel Christ. We are by grace what he is by nature.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Inkaneer,

I want to thank you for the research you did … and, to tell you I am feeling a bit foolish for not having verified this material first … instead of thinking it was a style of writing. Live and learn - and thanks for the lesson.

Oh, and thanks for the copy of the actual prayer - it is quite good and I had never read it before.

Concerning your actions with JMA, I will leave that to you. The posts from JMA have been antagonist, demeaning toward the Catholic Faith and quite slanted - and, until your post, Inkaneer, I thought they hovered just this side of reportable. There is no open spirit of dialogue with JMA - just one of attack. Truly, there are several Protestant sites that thrive off of the venom of such posters…maybe he would be happier there…

God bless

Well I know forum rules prevent us from calling other people liars or other ad hominem attacks. And for the record I am not doing it now because I’ll let Just Me Andrew the opportunity to offer a defense. If he does not I will report him to the forum moderator to determine if he should be banned from this forum.

Now, what Just Me Andrew posted [see above] alleging it to be the prayer of Pope Pius XII is a fake. It is a fraud. Oh some parts are genuine for sure but the prayer has been picked apart and sections added such as in the first paragraph the bit about “…We adore and praise the peerless richness **of the sublime gifts **with which God has filled you …” Pope Pius XII didn’t write that at all. What he wrote was, “…We admire and praise the peerless richness with which God has filled you…”. Notice how the word ADORE was substituted for ADMIRE. Nice huh? Real sly and if one was not careful easy to not notice. Notice also the part about “…of the sublime gifts…” was added. Pope Pius didn’t write that either.

I am posting the complete prayer of Pope Pius XII for the Marian year of 1954 for all to see. But I have to ask the question why someone who claims to be a christian has to resort to falsehoods to advance his belief system over Catholicism. I don’t know the answer to that maybe Just Me Andrew can tell us. Maybe his Bible says a lie will make you free but in my bible it is the truth that makes one free. And we didn’t get the truth from him as far as Pope Pius XII prayer for the Marian year of 1954.

Here is a note to other Catholics on this forum. Never, never, never, take the word of a protestant, especially when they quote something Catholic. Always check it out yourself. Always require that they provide the proper reference notation. If from a website demand they give the URL. The reason is simple. They use protestant sources which are of dubious credibility. They do not use prime source material for anything Catholic, which, of course, would be an orthodox Catholic source. These protestant sources may not be interested in truth and in my experience some of them do contain material that can only be described as pure unadulterated hatred and/or bigotry. In short there are alot of Jack Chick and Lorraine Boettner wannabes out there in protestant land. So as scripture says in 1 Thessalonians 5:21:

“but test everything; hold fast what is good,”

Continued next post…

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

tqualey

In my defence I did apologize and retract my inaccurate quote. I am a very honest person. I percieve that any critical evaluation of another’s beliefs is considered an attack by some. I don’t thrive on confrontation, I do challenge peoples beliefs like I did on the sola scriptura discussion on the forum.

I have never acted rudely and I have never resorted to adhoms. For my part I am glad that any errors I have made I have the guts to admit them and retracted them. --Andrew

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

tqualey

I reread your post. I don’t remember anything I have posted that was demeaning of your religion. Honestly I thought I brought some very interesting thoughts to the table. You said my views are slanted? Whatever that means I leave it to you…however all of us come to the table with certain biases…I assume you do as well.

I am not antagonistic…if you can show me some of my anagonistic posts I will apollogize…but in context none of my posts are antagonistic.–Andrew

 

[panevino]

…"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus, and our Mother Mary… We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

Bolder words above highlight catholic theology
That Mary is a mere creature and that gifts attributed her (ie powerful intercession) are only possible because of God.

 

[Axion]

Thanks Inkaneer. I didn’t catch that.

A reminder always to check stuff. There is so much dodgy stuff about on the net.

I remember being faced with a picture of a bishop wearing a swastika on one board, and being told it was a Catholic Bishop. On checking I found it was the Bishop of he Protestant “German Christian” movement.

Motto: If it looks surprising. Check it out!

 

[inkaneer]

I got the Marian prayer from the transcripts of Dr.Walter Martin and Mich Pacwa debate on Mary and requoted on the John Ankerberg site articles concerning Mary. I apollogize if the quotes were wrong. Thank you for giving me the full prayer I have saved it. Any mistakes concerning the prayer I apollogize. I retract the bad quote.

Concerning the prayer you have given me…most of the same titles are used of Mary and my basic obejections remain.I can go through the whole prayer and show the problems.

Thank you for pointing out what you did. Theological issues remain…My premise stands that there are titles given to Mary that parallel Christ…to an extent. Mary is exalted with titles that are extra biblical and extreemly excessive. --Andrew

This then shows you the treachery of Dr. Walter Martin and John Ankerberg. By altering the words of Pope Pius XII they in fact bore false witness against Catholicism. First, please tell me why they need to violate a commandment of the God they claim to worship in order to advance their beliefs and if they resort to falsehoods to advance their beliefs then what witness is that of their beliefs. Can they then be true? Is truth supported by lies? Then tell me what the scriptures say of those who prosletize and lead others away from the truth. You’ll find it in Matthew 23:15:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.” [Mt 23:15]

As for your claim that Pope Pius XII used "…titles given to Mary that parallel Christ…to an extent.’’ What does that mean? What do you mean “…that parallel Christ” and what does “…to an extent” mean? I think you need to explain what exactly you mean. Once you do that then I would be willing to go line by line of Pope Pius XII’s prayer and show you that theologically Pope Pius XII did not take away from the glory that is God’s but rather he glorified God in his prayer. In addition Pope Pius XII did not attribute to Mary any title that is God’s alone. I will provide one example.

In the prayer Pope Pius XII called Mary, “Queen of the Universe” Now in scripture Christ is never called this but the woman in Revelation 12 is crowned with stars and has the moon under her feet. A queen wears a crown but a ‘‘mere creature’’ as protestants portray Mary does not. But that is not all. In the Davidic kingdom who was the queen of the kingdom? Was it the king’s wife? Or was it his mother? Refer to 1Ki 15:13; 2Ch 15:16; Jer 29:2 and a couple of other places all refer to a ‘queen mother’ not the wife. Then we have 1Ki 2:19 which states:

“Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.” [1Ki 2:19 ]

Solomon was the son of David and Bathshe’ba [2Sa 12:24]. Now recall the request of the mother of James and John and Jesus’ response in Mt 20:20-23? Here it is:

“20 Then the mother of the sons of Zeb’edee came up to him, with her sons, and kneeling before him she asked him for something. 21 And he said to her, “What do you want?” She said to him, “Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 But Jesus answered, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” They said to him, “We are able.” 23 He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” [Mt 20:20-23] RSV

In the Davidic kingdom the queen mother sat on a throne at the right hand of the king. Jesus is a Davidic king over all creation (the universe) and His mother is the queen.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JustMeAndrew,

OK. Let’s start anew!

Now, as I appreciate your concerns, you think Catholics adore Mary as a god or goddess and you see this as wrong. Is this your concern?

If the answer is a simple and straight-forward “yes” - then rest assured Catholics do not do this… or anything even close to this. There is only One God in Three Persons. Period.

Catholics believe that Mary is a creature - created by God from nothing. From that standpoint, Mary is no different than anyone else. EVERYTHING divides up into one of two categories: Created and Creator.

Catholics believe that Mary was given a Special Grace by God (Luke 1 & 2). Mary did NOT EARN this grace (of course, no grace can be ‘earned’) - it was freely given by God - and this Grace was to be the Mother of Jesus Christ.

Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Jesus Christ is True God and true man - having Divine and Human Nature - perfectly formed around the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. We do not know how this happened except that God will this so.

Because of the previously stated beliefs, Catholics believe that Mary is the Mother of God. While Mary is a creature, she is the most favored creature God created. Jesus Christ nursed at her breast, learned human love and emotion from His Mother and grew up in “wisdom, age and grace” from His Mother’s knee. He was like us in all things - except sin - and He had a truly loving Mother whose focus is to have us follow her Son - and this focus is captured quite well in one of her few recorded statements, “Do whatever He tells you” (John 2:5)

Now, just to be straight-forward, please state any objections you have to anything I have written. Thanks.

God bless

tqualey

In my defence I did apologize and retract my inaccurate quote. I am a very honest person. I percieve that any critical evaluation of another’s beliefs is considered an attack by some. I don’t thrive on confrontation, I do challenge peoples beliefs like I did on the sola scriptura discussion on the forum.

I have never acted rudely and I have never resorted to adhoms. For my part I am glad that any errors I have made I have the guts to admit them and retracted them. --Andrew

 

[inkaneer]

Thanks Inkaneer. I didn’t catch that.

A reminder always to check stuff. There is so much dodgy stuff about on the net.

I remember being faced with a picture of a bishop wearing a swastika on one board, and being told it was a Catholic Bishop. On checking I found it was the Bishop of he Protestant “German Christian” movement.

Motto: If it looks surprising. Check it out!

1Timothy 3:15 tells us that it is the church that is the pillar and bulwark of truth. That church is the Catholic Church. It will prevail over the forces of hell so do not fall for any accusations made against it. Do the research and check things out and never take anyone making an accusation at their word. Conducting research is so easy today with the internet and all the search engines available. In a lot of discussions, but not all, where accusations have been made I have been able to find the exact website where the accuser obtained his false information and provide the correct information. The important thing for Catholics to remember is that in Catholicism you hold the absolute truth, the entire deposit of the faith given to the Apostles. So if some allegation is made that differs from that you can be sure it is false and with that you can seek and obtain the evidence to refute it. Let me add that a side benefit of this is that you will grow tremendously in the knowledge of your faith and scripture. My faith has become more alive than ever as a result of researching false allegations made against the Catholic Church.

 

[PAboy57]

I feel sorry for those who will stand before Jesus and have to explain why they did not give His mother the respect she deserves.

Not respecting Mary is one step away from not respecting Jesus. Their hearts are tied together so closely and Mary really gets whatever she asks for. She is at the top of the Saint List and I hope you all realize how she can and will help those who ask.

I encourage you to have much devotion to our Blessed Mother and Queen of Heaven and Earth.

Take care.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PAboy57.

Let me join you in encouraging everyone to have a devotion to Our Blessed Mother.

God bless

I feel sorry for those who will stand before Jesus and have to explain why they did not give His mother the respect she deserves.

Not respecting Mary is one step away from not respecting Jesus. Their hearts are tied together so closely and Mary really gets whatever she asks for. She is at the top of the Saint List and I hope you all realize how she can and will help those who ask.

I encourage you to have much devotion to our Blessed Mother and Queen of Heaven and Earth.

Take care.

 

[PLeeD]

Tqualey, I’ll throw in my two cents

I don’t disagree with anything you posted about Mary. She is truly blessed above all other women. Problem is, I don’t see the point of fixating on her as an object of overt affection. The other problem for me is, I don’t feel a bit drawn toward praying to her, or singing songs about her. If I were to do so it would be abjectly insincere. I don’t think that’s what she or Jesus would want.

So again, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote in that post. At the same time I don’t see any need to go any further in esteeming Mary. If you think that equals disrespect, then I’m sorry. But I can live with it, and I think Jesus and Mary are OK with it too.

Honestly, I find reading Paul’s writings to be far more inspiring than reflection on Mary. I’d feel more comfortable praying to him, but I don’t and won’t short of being drawn to by the Holy Spirit. I worship God, and Jesus is my savior. I don’t need to pray to any others.

As for PAboy’s concern for his brothers in Christ, I haven’t seen anything that dictates we will be judged based on our esteem for Mary. I have a long list of concerns about standing before Jesus on judgement day, but this issue is not on that list

 

[PRmerger]

Honestly, I find reading Paul’s writings to be far more inspiring than reflection on Mary.

Like most Catholic things, it’s not either/or but both/and.

Christians are indeed capable of doing both–reading Paul’s writings *and *reflecting on the Blessed Mother.

I’d feel more comfortable praying to him, but I don’t and won’t short of being drawn to by the Holy Spirit. I worship God, and Jesus is my savior.

That’s very Catholic of you to say that, PLee!

I don’t need to pray to any others.

Yet you ask others to pray for you in your prayer chain and also intercede for others by praying for their intentions?

Why can’t you do that with Mary as well?

 

[inkaneer]

Tqualey, I’ll throw in my two cents

I don’t disagree with anything you posted about Mary. She is truly blessed above all other women. Problem is, I don’t see the point of fixating on her as an object of overt affection. The other problem for me is, I don’t feel a bit drawn toward praying to her, or singing songs about her. If I were to do so it would be abjectly insincere. I don’t think that’s what she or Jesus would want.

So again, I don’t disagree with anything you wrote in that post. At the same time I don’t see any need to go any further in esteeming Mary. If you think that equals disrespect, then I’m sorry. But I can live with it, and I think Jesus and Mary are OK with it too.

Honestly, I find reading Paul’s writings to be far more inspiring than reflection on Mary. I’d feel more comfortable praying to him, but I don’t and won’t short of being drawn to by the Holy Spirit. I worship God, and Jesus is my savior. I don’t need to pray to any others.

As for PAboy’s concern for his brothers in Christ, I haven’t seen anything that dictates we will be judged based on our esteem for Mary. I have a long list of concerns about standing before Jesus on judgement day, but this issue is not on that list

I guess that is to be expected when one considers that your tradition [The Assembly of God] is not even a hundred years old and grew out of the so called ‘Second Great Awakening’ of the 1800’s and the ‘Azuza Street revival’. They in turn grew out of other forms of protestantism such as Methodism, the Baptists and the 'First Great Awakening of the 1700’s who in turn grew out of the original protestants, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Anglicans. They of course came out of the Catholic Church in the 1500’s. The Catholic Church came from the Apostles and Christ. Now I know protestants don’t like to admit that and depending on which protestant group one is speaking to, try to attach a date anywhere from 312 AD to 1100 AD for the Catholic Church. It would be nice if they would agree on one date but then protestants don’t ageee on too many thing anyway. That’s why there exists the myriad of protestant denominations in just a 500 year history.

In any event, the doctrine of sola scriptura, unbiblical as it is, has blinded the protestant movement to the fullness of faith that was given to the Apostles and preserved in the Catholic Church. Protestants do not like to read the early church fathers. Supposedly because, as they claim they are not inspired. But the real reason is that the early church has nothing in common with protestantism and everything to do with Catholocism. As for not being inspired that is a red herring raised to deflect attention away from the fact that no one ever claimed that the early church writers were inspired. Rather the early church writers importance is in the historical witness they provide as to what were the teachings of the church in their time period. You know Jesus did state that He would remain with His church till the end of the Age. He also stated that the Holy Spirit would lead it into all truth and that the forces of hell would not prevail over it. Since the mission of the church was to teach the nations the good news of salvation the only way that hell could prevail overthe church was to cause it to teach error. But how could that happen when Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead the church into all truth? That is a question for all non-Catholics to answer. I would like your answer.

So given the scriptural assurance of being led into all truth and the church being the popillar and foundation of truth how could the church teach error about Mary or the saints, purgatory, or any other subject that protestants claim where the Catholic Church taught error? Again I would like your answer.

There is a lot more that I can list but I’ll leave you with one more. Try to trace the history of the belief in sola scriptura back to the Apostles. You can’t do it. The reason is that sola scriptura is a man made tradition concocted in the 16th century. And that is another reason why protestants downgrade the early church writers. They were not sola scripturists but rather were firmly entrenched in Apostolic Tradition. In short, they were very, very Catholic. Read them and then compare what they have to say with what your Assembly of God denomination says.