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oldcatholicguy
Guest
The photo in question shows BJPtG kissing a Quran. You can try to rationalize your position on the photo all you want, but BJPtG kissed a Quran.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Islam is not a false faith in that it is centered on God. Islam is a false faith in that it’s understanding of/teachings of God are in error. Depending on how one defines “false faith” it can be either/both. I think a better way to state what the CCC states about Islam is “that while Islam does correctly identify and worship God, it’s understanding and teachings of God are in error.”
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
No, I’m putting secular society in it’s proper place, namely behind religion and God (and yes, even religions such as Islam that get most of it wrong should be placed ahead of a Godless “it’s all about me” secular society).
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Thank you for your post.
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Mickey_Finn
Guest
Unless I’m mistaken. He’s saying that we should not force evangilization on people. Because they have a God given gift of free will. So, you would have to properly introduce them to the Gospel. Allowing them to absorb, and understand in their own time. It’s quite a challenge, and I understand why our predicessors took the odd short cut.
ATB
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Are Muslims not speaking out against Muslim extremists, or are we not hearing them. If this forum is any indicator for society as a whole, than I would say we are not hearing them. In a prior thread concerning an extremist attack one poster made a similar claim about Muslims not speaking out against extremism. The very next post in that thread was someone linking a statement by Muslim leaders in that country speaking out against that attack. No follow up comments or “oh, I was wrong, they are speaking out” type comments. Another example- the thread concerning the recent bombing in Pakistan has eight pages of comments and counting (it’s one of the top threads in the World News sub-forum); the thread concerning Muslim leaders in Pakistan speaking out against the bombing has 2 comments (one being the OP) and is on page 2 of the World News sub-forum.
Once again, if this forum is any indicator for society as a whole, why would Muslims speak out against Muslim extremists. When they do they are either ignored or, more often the case, are labeled as “not serious Muslims,” “Westernized Muslims,” “secular Muslims,” or “they don’t know what their faith really teaches.”
How long would you try to hold a conversation with someone who’s default stance was that you really don’t know what your faith teaches anytime you stated something that ran counter to their biased opinion of the Catholic faith? Example- “Of course the Catholic faith oppresses women, you just don’t know what your faith really teaches.” I know I wouldn’t waste much time on talking with someone like that.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Your job may be to evangelize, and that’s great, but my calling is to LOVE God and promote religious unity and coexistence.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
Closed pending review by moderator Robert Bay
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Robert_Sock
Guest
LOVE, the focus on similarity (unity), coexistence and mutual understanding! This is where I’m coming from!
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livnlern
Guest
Do you really think that if there was a concerted effort by Muslims to speak out against the terrorists of their faith, it wouldn’t be all over the media? The media loves them. They bend over backwards to put them in a good light. So I can’t help but think that there hasn’t been much effort on the part of moderate Muslims, especially in the US, to condemn acts of terrorism by their brethren or it would have been all over the news.
It’s the Christians that are hated by the mainstream media, not the Muslims. And we Catholic Christians in particular that are always misrepresented and put in a bad light.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Thank you for proving my point.
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
I pointed out earlier that the media has a particular bias against reporting on the atrocities committed by Christians around the world, but it also has a bias against reporting Muslim opposition to extremism. There were marches all over the place organized by Muslims protesting extremism and expressing solidarity with the US after 9/11. The response in Cincinnati was someone lobbing pipe bombs at a mosque and Muslim elementary school. Neither were covered extensively in the media, but you can bet it would have been had a Muslim thrown pipe bombs at a Christian school.
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froster2
Guest
India has centuries of Hindu-Moslem conflict. 3 Indo-Pakistani wars in religion name-Hindu vs. Moslem. India and Pakistan both have nuclear weapons which can destroy world.
Phillipines-Abu Sayaff and Moslem Brotherhood who want Moslem nation.
Russia-Problems in Chechnya where Chechen Moslems want own nation.
No, most Moslems are not fanatics and most are not committing terrorism and wars. But when a place gets a Moslem majority, you have Moslems who want a theocracy based on Quran. If you’re not Moslem, you can still stay but you must obey Moslem laws and treated like 2nd Class citizens.
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
India also has a history, some recent, of Christian vs Hindu and Christian vs Buddhist violence.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
There is such a thing as democracy, and Muslims are free to proliferate and seek Muslim rule in these areas if they wish. I see nothing wrong with that, if they have the power to do so and do not use force.
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froster2
Guest
Yes and India also has conflcit with China-1962 India-China war where both nations still have dispute over territory.India also has a history, some recent, of Christian vs Hindu and Christian vs Buddhist violence.
Yes, India has had Hindu-Christian problems over the centuries be it Goa Inquisition. You have extreme eg. of Hindu-Christian conflict where killings have happened. However, for the most part, Hindus and Christians get along fine. There are Hindus who sent their kids to Catholic schools because they believe Catholic schools will give them better education. And Christian charities have done work in India.
But the Hindu-Moslem conflict has happened for centuries and is far bloodier. There are far more Hindu-Moslem riots compared to Hindu-Christian riots.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Today we are living in completely different world in which the battle lines are drawn differently. In this world radical secularism stands on one side, and the question of God. in its various forms, stands on the other.
Of course the respective identity of the various religions must continue to exist. We cannot dissolve ourselves into one another. We must try to understand one another.
The important thing here is to remain in close contact with all the currents of Islam that are open to, and capable of, dialogue, so as to give a change of mentality a chance to happen even where Islam still couples a claim to truth with violence.
Pope Benedict Light of the World pg 101
The words of Pope Francis state similar thoughts, not to beat them over the head with past phrase’s of the apostolic Church. such as St Thomas Aquinas in Summa Contra Gentiles, this does not help the dialogue calling them barbaric heretics. I’m familiar with the past degrading comments also I have them here also.
So instead of everyone insisting they know what the CCC states claiming they have the correct understanding, how about we actually listen to what the elect of the Church are saying. And of recent. All the understanding of Spencer and others which gives perspective to understanding is fine. How to proceed forward though we hear in the words of Benedict and Pope Francis.
This is also why I posted the article from the Copt which he states clearly this is not an easy path for Christians to travel on in missionary work. You need to know and be rooted in your own faith clearly.
Of course the respective identity of the various religions must continue to exist. We cannot dissolve ourselves into one another. We must try to understand one another.
The important thing here is to remain in close contact with all the currents of Islam that are open to, and capable of, dialogue, so as to give a change of mentality a chance to happen even where Islam still couples a claim to truth with violence.
Pope Benedict Light of the World pg 101
The words of Pope Francis state similar thoughts, not to beat them over the head with past phrase’s of the apostolic Church. such as St Thomas Aquinas in Summa Contra Gentiles, this does not help the dialogue calling them barbaric heretics. I’m familiar with the past degrading comments also I have them here also.
So instead of everyone insisting they know what the CCC states claiming they have the correct understanding, how about we actually listen to what the elect of the Church are saying. And of recent. All the understanding of Spencer and others which gives perspective to understanding is fine. How to proceed forward though we hear in the words of Benedict and Pope Francis.
This is also why I posted the article from the Copt which he states clearly this is not an easy path for Christians to travel on in missionary work. You need to know and be rooted in your own faith clearly.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
BTW here is St Thomas Aquinas as stated above…
“On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.”
Follow? That doesn’t help. it helps you not wind up playing muslim for a day, however, as stated by Benedict/Francis that’s not the path for dialogue or the opening conversation.
Now as to NY or Boston, you forgive, not for Islam, but for yourself, so you don’t remain imprisoned by them . And as to forgetting those who perished, well I wasn’t in the City that day. But I can assure you that doesn’t happen in this life, and that’s a statement I would sign in my blood. I remember every day, those long ago battles that no-one ever heard about or cares about. You see you get the opportunity to put your A-game on now and live for them. And that is to respect them.
“On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.”
Follow? That doesn’t help. it helps you not wind up playing muslim for a day, however, as stated by Benedict/Francis that’s not the path for dialogue or the opening conversation.
Now as to NY or Boston, you forgive, not for Islam, but for yourself, so you don’t remain imprisoned by them . And as to forgetting those who perished, well I wasn’t in the City that day. But I can assure you that doesn’t happen in this life, and that’s a statement I would sign in my blood. I remember every day, those long ago battles that no-one ever heard about or cares about. You see you get the opportunity to put your A-game on now and live for them. And that is to respect them.
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Mickey_Finn
Guest
I think you’re referring to violence perpetrated against Christian by Hindu’s. It is on the increase in recent years. As for Christian minorities attacking other faiths I’m sure you know this is a rare thing.India also has a history, some recent, of Christian vs Hindu and Christian vs Buddhist violence.
ATB
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TEPO
Guest
There’s going to have to be violence in this world. There always has been and violence is committed by all people from any religion or ideology -and that’s human nature, not Gods.
I’m not convinced by any argument that because this or that person, or those people are bad in general means that all people like them are equally violent. Nobody should believe that, but most importantly -nobody is saying that. There is no good reason to defend such a position.
Islamism itself, as opposed to Muslims, is the problem… Just as Thomas Aquinas has stated, it was Mohammed who was and is the problem. Once human beings are able to make that distinction, then they have taken one step closer to wisdom.
We should interact with Muslims and care for them but we should never hold an undue respect for the prophet of carnal seduction… We cannot lie.
…but Muslims dialoging through a comedy skit is just social interaction. Maybe we could take it a step further and offer Muslims the kindest of words every chance we get. Wouldn’t Jesus do exactly that?
I’m not convinced by any argument that because this or that person, or those people are bad in general means that all people like them are equally violent. Nobody should believe that, but most importantly -nobody is saying that. There is no good reason to defend such a position.
Islamism itself, as opposed to Muslims, is the problem… Just as Thomas Aquinas has stated, it was Mohammed who was and is the problem. Once human beings are able to make that distinction, then they have taken one step closer to wisdom.
We should interact with Muslims and care for them but we should never hold an undue respect for the prophet of carnal seduction… We cannot lie.
…but Muslims dialoging through a comedy skit is just social interaction. Maybe we could take it a step further and offer Muslims the kindest of words every chance we get. Wouldn’t Jesus do exactly that?
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