The 'New Evangelization' for Catholics ... why not join with the Protestant Evangelicals ?

[guanophore]

So from my experience, I would never leave the Catholic Church, I would never use Protestant theology to try to convert anyone. I’m happy to remain Catholic - I don’t think you are.

Would you ever use a small tract to evangelize? Or what method do you think would be better?

 

[Bonnie]

Would you ever use a small tract to evangelize? Or what method do you think would be better?

My way is simply talking with people. I tried to use Catholic tracts a few times, but it just didn’t feel right for me. I’m not a real outgoing person, so simple conversations work best.

I’m a Franciscan, so sometimes people ask me about my Tau. People just talk with me - I really don’t know why!

 

[guanophore]

What have I said that makes you think I wish to return to Baptist roots ?

Actually, it is what you are saying on this thread that makes it clear you have never left your Baptist roots.

You clearly believe that using an evangelistic tract that is based upon, and leads into heresies is perfectly fine for a Catholic. You have not been swayed in your Baptist opinion, despite many people in this thread telling you why this is not a good idea.

  I went from Baptist .. to Non-denom ... to Prodigal [for many years] ... to recovery from satan by Catholic Church !!    Don't you, I, G-4, and zillions of others realize life is a Drama being lived out.  Sometimes we are advancing cause of Christ ... often we fall back into errant living as Seculars.  But, we have 'beginnings', 'present tense'  & our 'futures'.

So part of the “drama” is to participate in heresies?

Life is not over til we see Peter @ the Gate, or perhaps Mary … and for sure Christ, who will burn off all the dross, purging us of it and making us fit for the Kingdom.

I don’t see how this relates to the topic…

Its not what we call ourselves [this denom or that one] … but, that we cooperate with the grace Christ sends us … and live as his Disciples, fully confessed, and filled with his spirit.

So basically it seems like you are saying that, like the Cru, it does not matter where you go to Church.

Our priests and Popes understand this, they know many Protestants are God’s children, and will see the Kingdom.

Yes, but to accuse the Holy Father of promoting a mortal sin is over the top, brb3.

Ask them yourself ---- I've had Bishops ask me why I converted !!  They know God saves us 'where we are', even if outside the CC ...

No, brb3, you are in error. There is no salvation outside of the CC.

provided we are steadfast followers of Christ --- til our last day.   We know JP2 believed Billy Graham was Christ's steadfast disciple and evangelist .. and instead of telling Billy "there is no salvation outside the Church", as some here are want to do, he told Billy "Mr. Graham, we are Brothers [in Christ]" !!!

You are accusing JP2 of heresy, brb3.

Yes, we are brethren with those of ecclesial communities that have been validly baptized, but that does not mean that we an set aside the infallible teachings of the Church.

 Now, I'm a strong proponent of the CC .... it's amazing.  So, I have no plans to return to Protestant beginnings.

It is clear you have never left them.

But, I wish all God’s children to join together as ONE Church.

There is ONLY ONE CHURCH, brb3. Jesus only founded one. All other ecclesial communities lack the four marks of the true church. The reason no one is saved outside the CC is because all who are saved are saved by Jesus, and He is the Head of the One Church of which they become a part to be saved.

Ecumenism is our desire for all.  And, if it is not realized by some of God's children in this Kingdom come World, it surely will happen for them in the Kingdom come in Heaven.

No, brb3. Everyone in heaven is Catholic. Didn’t you know? There is no need for ecumenism anymore at that point.

nope …

the 4 Laws and Sinner’s Prayer are c/w Catholic theology. They are scripturally based and formulated on firm theologic grounds.

But, the basic 4 Laws and Sinner’s Prayer is ‘rock-solid’ Apostolic understanding of the 11 and Paul … given them by Tradition, and later expressed in scripture when it was inspired of God and penned by the Christian writers of 1st century.

It is ok for you to keep your Baptist theology, brb3. We all are made free to choose, and if you choose anti-Catholic theology, you have exercised the free gift of choice given to you by God.

The 4 laws are formulated on firm Protestant theological grounds. You like them because your theology is Protestant. You claim you are a “firm proponent” of the CC, which is certainly kind of you, but when you place Protestant ecclesial communities, founded by men, on par with the Church founded by Christ, you demonstrate that you lack Catholicity.

Maybe, to avoid confusing readers, you could consider changing your affiliation to “firm Catholic Proponent”?

… I’m saying my Bishop, upon hearing my conversion to Catholic Church … was surprised I felt so compelled to leave my Protestant brethren, saying that the Protestants were saved just like the Catholics, and didn’t need to convert to Catholic Church.

If indeed he said this, he is in grave error.

… He said the CC’s understanding on this changed with Vatican 2. Before, it was believed an imperative— but after Vat. 2, no longer essential or taught as so by the Pope and Magi.

Was he wrong ?

Yes. It is an infallible teaching of the Church that there is no salvation outside of her.

But that was not what we were talking about. We were saying that it is wrong to recommend or encourage anyone to stay outside the Catholic faith. If JP2 did this, he committed a grave sin. You are accusing him of heresy.

 

[guanophore]

Rather, I think they’d say that it’s their regeneration that enables them to pray the prayer, etc.

You mean, regeneration does not result in a state of justification before God??

 

[brb3]

I came across this interesting article …from 1995, on Catholic and Evangelical cooperation. This clearly establishes that Campus Crusade for Christ founder, Bill Bright, had strong Catholic inclinations / affections !

www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0025.htm

also … a few years back, 2000 CRU staff/leaders formed EOC [Evangelical Orthodox Church] … and later made full conversion to the Orthodox Church in Serbia. What do Catholics make of this phenom ?

 

[april32010]

I came across this interesting article …from 1995, on Catholic and Evangelical cooperation. This clearly establishes that Campus Crusade for Christ founder, Bill Bright, had strong Catholic inclinations / affections !

heres a quote from this article

Other endorsers have emphasized the opportunity ECT provides for presenting the Gospel to Catholics. Commenting on his meeting with his evangelical detractors, Bill Bright wrote to his supporters that ECT “facilitated our evangelism in Catholic countries.” He argued that removing his name from the document could result in the loss of salvation for many Catholic souls: “Since the ECT Statement had already helped us reach more Catholics in other countries, the Holy Spirit brought tears to my eyes before these men [McArthur and Sproul] as I explained that repudiating the agreement would probably cause tens of millions of Catholics to not hear the gospel and to be eternally lost.”

HEAR THE GOSPEL,WE WROTE THE GOSPEL. DO YOU THINK THIS HELPS YOUR CASE !!!

 

[guanophore]

 I came across this interesting article ...from 1995, on Catholic and Evangelical cooperation.  This clearly establishes that Campus Crusade for Christ founder, Bill Bright, had strong Catholic inclinations / affections !

www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0025.htm

No, it does nothing of the kind. It was founded to keep the Evangelicals and Catholics from fighting with each other in the process of Evangelicals “sheep stealing” in South America. Agreeing not to fight so your evangelistic witness is more effective is not the same as having “affection” for one another. Nor does it mean that any evangelicals are “inclined” toward Catholicism.

I think it is your own inclination and affection for your Baptist roots that are blinding you to the truth.

also … a few years back, 2000 CRU staff/leaders formed EOC [Evangelical Orthodox Church] … and later made full conversion to the Orthodox Church in Serbia. What do Catholics make of this phenom ?

I have always wondered about this phenom. They were not received by the mother Church in Constantinople, which is why they went to Serbia looking for a place to attach. I was not sure whey they were not accepted.

 

[brb3]

heres a quote from this article HEAR THE GOSPEL,WE WROTE THE GOSPEL. DO YOU THINK THIS HELPS YOUR CASE !!!

It might seem like CRU wishes to hurt the CC … but, such is not the case. There are some Protestants who hate the CC … but, it wasn’t Billy Graham, Bill Bright, Pat Robertson, Rev. Shuller,or Chuck Colson.

They always spoke favorably of Catholic and CC … and those others, who did fear the Catholic Church were constantly speaking out against the above 5, calling them Catholic sympathizers.

Understand that our Popes knew who admired and favored the CC … and those others who didn’t. As a general rule, the Evangelicals [esp Baptists and Pentecostals], have strong admiration for the CC … and don’t hate or fear Catholics.

But, there are other Protestant denominations that do dislike/fear the CC. So, Catholics can easily get confused/mistaken about which groups & leaders support the CC, or work against us. Also, alot of Lutherans now favor the Church, and we know the Anglicans that have rejoined us already. We are making Ecumenical progress … JP2 was a big help. And Benedict gets alot of credit too. And, hopefully Pope Francis will continue to keep Ecumenism alive.

 

[brb3]

I have always wondered about this phenom. They were not received by the mother Church in Constantinople, which is why they went to Serbia looking for a place to attach. I was not sure whey they were not accepted.

They were on missions in Serbia … and decided to research the early christian roots … starting with apostles. And, after much historical research … they all decided it wasn’t the Protestant churches. So, they formed their own church … the Evangelical Orthodox Church … and then realized the existing Orthodox Church in Asia Minor … was the survivor Church from the Apostles … so, they wished to join them, and eventually did !!

Google EOC / Evangelical Orthodox Church … and u will find several links with full story.

 

[Koineman]

Calvanists will say that this “confirmation” in the heart cannot happen unless God has justified them, and in fact, it is having been justified that enables them to pray the prayer and make the confession of faith.

No, that’s not what I said. In the Reformed view, they pray, repent, believe, etc., ***because ***they are regenerated. The faith results in justification. For the Calvinist, the ordo salutis is:

regeneration → faith/repentance → justification.

Your original quote (above) states the reverse–that Calvinists think being justified is what enables (thus precedes) prayer and confession of faith.

 

[brb3]

Nor does it mean that any evangelicals are “inclined” toward Catholicism.

I think it is your own inclination and affection for your Baptist roots that are blinding you to the truth.

Actually, the Southern Baptists love Catholics and the CC … and as Billy Graham has said ‘his beliefs are c/w CC … but for a few of modern traditions’ !!

The very first time I entered the CC, and heard Mass, ---- I felt perfectly at home, and perceived no error in the Mass. I knew instantly the CC was the house of the Lord. I’ve taken other Baptists to the Mass … and all feel at home and the presence of the Lord there. I give them the CCC to read … and they love it … and order more for their kinships !!

All, Pope Francis needs to do … is to openly welcome the Southern Baptists to experience Eumenical services with Catholics … and the Lord will take care of the rest.

 

[brb3]

G-4 …

Here’s your link … last half of article.

theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/ocrc/2010/04/evangelicals-turn-toward-the-orthodox-church/

 

[april32010]

Actually, the Southern Baptists love Catholics and the CC
.

not true

 

[april32010]

Billy Graham has said ‘his beliefs are c/w CC … but for a few of modern traditions’ !!

then he should have converted

 

[brb3]

Church Militant & Guanophore —

Here is an interesting 20 minute video on Evangelicals discovering the Universal Apostolic Church in recent years ! Many came from Campus Crusade for Christ backgrounds.

See what the Lord can do, with/thru the Evangelicals !!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_2gl17e7A8

for some reason … this link not connecting. if you experience technical difficulties with it … google : Evangelical Orthodox Church … and second item there is this video. It is amazing info … a must see for all Evangelicals and Catholics with Ecumenism interests.

 

[Bonnie]

All, Pope Francis needs to do … is to openly welcome the Southern Baptists to experience Eumenical services with Catholics … and the Lord will take care of the rest.

Why ecumenical services? Why not invite them to experience the Mass? That’s what we do - and some have taken us up on it - even some Calvinists! I was really shocked when I saw the very anti-Catholic SDA minister at the Easter vigil. We suspect he came because our son was dating a member of his church & she came to Mass for the first time with him. Her request.

We even knew a Protestant family that came every Ash Wednesday for their ashes.

 

[brb3]

Why ecumenical services? Why not invite them to experience the Mass? That’s what we do - and some have taken us up on it - even some Calvinists! I was really shocked when I saw the very anti-Catholic SDA minister at the Easter vigil. We suspect he came because our son was dating a member of his church & she came to Mass for the first time with him. Her request.

We even knew a Protestant family that came every Ash Wednesday for their ashes.

Yes … that’s what I’m doing too. Taking the Protestants to Mass & giving them the CCC !!

Bless u Bonnie ! You are taking our Popes seriously, and the Great Commission of Christ to the Apostles / and laity Disciples.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Church Militant & Guanophore —

Here is an interesting 20 minute video on Evangelicals discovering the Universal Apostolic Church in recent years ! Many came from Campus Crusade for Christ backgrounds.

See what the Lord can do, with/thru the Evangelicals !!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_2gl17e7A8

for some reason … this link not connecting. if you experience technical difficulties with it … google : Evangelical Orthodox Church … and second item there is this video. It is amazing info … a must see for all Evangelicals and Catholics with Ecumenism interests.

No one is denying that evangelicals may be attracted to the Catholic faith if exposed. The point here is about evangelizing with non-Catholics. That is a problem because they have not yet become Catholic and do hold on to errors.

 

[guanophore]

It might seem like CRU wishes to hurt the CC … but, such is not the case.

No one has claimed they are. They espouse anti-Catholic theology. They use materials based on anti-Catholic premises.

There are some Protestants who hate the CC … but, it wasn’t Billy Graham, Bill Bright, Pat Robertson, Rev. Shuller,or Chuck Colson.

There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see. Go back and look at the article that you linked in your post # 144. In that article you will find:

"Other endorsers have emphasized the opportunity ECT provides for presenting the Gospel to Catholics. Commenting on his meeting with his evangelical detractors, Bill Bright wrote to his supporters that ECT “facilitated our evangelism in Catholic countries.” He argued that removing his name from the document could result in the loss of salvation for many Catholic souls: “Since the ECT Statement had already helped us reach more Catholics in other countries, the Holy Spirit brought tears to my eyes before these men [McArthur and Sproul] as I explained that repudiating the agreement would probably cause tens of millions of Catholics to not hear the gospel and to be eternally lost.”

What you don’t want to see is that these folks believe Catholics have not heard the Gospel and are eternally lost. They need to find a way to “agree” with Catholic doctrine sufficiently to be able to pluck Catholics out of the Church.

They always spoke favorably of Catholic and CC … and those others, who did fear the Catholic Church were constantly speaking out against the above 5, calling them Catholic sympathizers.

They are just as wise as serpents. They know that open hostility against Catholics will only engender more defensiveness and make it harder to “reach more Catholics”. If there is an appearance of agreement and cooperation, it is much easier to pull Catholics away from their faith and into a “bible believing church”.

Understand that our Popes knew who admired and favored the CC ... and those others who didn't.  As a general rule, the Evangelicals [esp Baptists and Pentecostals], have strong admiration for the CC ... and don't hate or fear Catholics.

I guess the Baptists and Pentecostals I was with were different than the ones you know.

But, there are other Protestant denominations that do dislike/fear the CC. So, Catholics can easily get confused/mistaken about which groups & leaders support the CC, or work against us.

Kinda like you seem to be, I guess?

Also, alot of Lutherans now favor the Church, and we know the Anglicans that have rejoined us already. We are making Ecumenical progress … JP2 was a big help. And Benedict gets alot of credit too. And, hopefully Pope Francis will continue to keep Ecumenism alive.

Yes, we need to work and pray for unity, and take opportunity for ecumenism.

Actually, the Southern Baptists love Catholics and the CC …

brb3, you are either in deep denial, or you are seriously misled.

and as Billy Graham has said ‘his beliefs are c/w CC … but for a few of modern traditions’ !!

This is the very problem, brb3. Sacred Tradition comes from the Apostles. It is part of the once for all divine deposit of faith, that cannot be added or subtracted. To say that the Apostolic teaching is “modern” is a reflection of how far removed they are from the faith we have. They don’t even realize what the Apostles believed!

The very first time I entered the CC, and heard Mass, ---- I felt perfectly at home, and perceived no error in the Mass. I knew instantly the CC was the house of the Lord. I’ve taken other Baptists to the Mass … and all feel at home and the presence of the Lord there. I give them the CCC to read … and they love it … and order more for their kinships !!

I am glad. However, the majority of Baptists are not like this.

All, Pope Francis needs to do ... is to openly welcome the Southern Baptists to experience Eumenical services with Catholics ... and the Lord will take care of the rest.

Now that you have discerned what the Pope needs to do, what do YOU need to do?

 

[guanophore]

No, that’s not what I said. In the Reformed view, they pray, repent, believe, etc., ***because ***they are regenerated. The faith results in justification. For the Calvinist, the ordo salutis is:

regeneration → faith/repentance → justification.

Your original quote (above) states the reverse–that Calvinists think being justified is what enables (thus precedes) prayer and confession of faith.

Thanks for clarifying that Koineman. I think I have it orderly now!