The 'New Evangelization' for Catholics ... why not join with the Protestant Evangelicals ?

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So far … the responses have not been very hopeful. I haven’t seen much enthusiasm yet for Catholics desiring to work together with our Evangelical brethren … to foster better relations/understandings thru working with CRU to witness for Christ.
Well duh…look at their statement of faith. Would you sign on with people who required that of you as a Catholic? I doubt very seriously if they’ll even consider you.
C. Militant ----
do you realize the Billy Graham had a long visit with JP2, 30 years ago … and they got along marvelously !!! They spoke of being “brothers” … and those were the words of JP2 to Billy ! I’ve been busy the last 24 … but, tonite I may have some time to research this … and get you your citations.
Bring it on.

That’s irrelevant. Dialog is one thing, but you never heard of His Holiness proposing that he and Graham do a joint crusade now did you?
Also, on Scott Hahn … view his latest NEW EVANGELIZATION series, on EWTN. It was last weeks program … aired on Monday nite.
Link?
Recall how it took Cornelius and family … to open up Peter’s eyes to God’s will on the Gentiles. What are we waiting for ? Our recent Popes and our best-known Catholic writer … have had their visions from the Father on developing this Ecumenism mission work. Can’t we trust them …“our brothers/sisters” in Christ —when our leaders do ?
Totally different things and again, a very Protestant type personal interpretation of both scripture and Papal comments, that you have still failed to document for context.

What are we waiting for? I’ll tell you…we await n-Cs to begin to preach and teach the fullness of truth. We await them openly admitting that we are every bit the Christian faith that they are. We await a time when their eyes no longer light up when they hear someone say they are Catholic so they can do their level best to proselytize them away from our most holy faith.

There are already a great many excellent Catholic apostolates that do the work of evangelism and we should waste time trying to hook up with a bunch of n-Cs who by definition and statement don’t even consider us Christian to begin with.

Here’s a list of sources that I have accumulated over time.
 
Well duh…look at their statement of faith. Would you sign on with people who required that of you as a Catholic? I doubt very seriously if they’ll even consider you.

Bring it on.

A–you never heard of His Holiness proposing that he and Graham do a joint crusade now do you ? Totally different things and again, a very Protestant type personal interpretation of both scripture and Papal comments, that you have still failed to document for context.

B–What are we waiting for? I’ll tell you…we await n-Cs to begin to preach and teach the fullness of truth. We await them openly admitting that we are every bit the Christian faith that they are. We await a time when their eyes no longer light up when they hear someone say they are Catholic so they can do their level best to proselytize them away from our most holy faith.

C–There are already a great many excellent Catholic apostolates that do the work of evangelism and we should waste time trying to hook up with a bunch of n-Cs who by definition and statement don’t even consider us Christian to begin with.

A-- We don’t know all those two discussed. 2 hrs was a long time to discuss the faith. And, we know JP2 considered Graham his Brother in Christ !! John Paul had arranged for Mr. Graham’s Crusade in Poland … at the very moment he became Pope. Is that just co-incidence ? Don’t we see God’s hand at work in fostering Ecumenism of Catholics and Evangelicals ?

B-- C. Militant … don’t you appreciate how hard Graham worked to foster relations with Catholics ? JP2 did !! And, many anti-catholics hate Graham for his love of the CC. But, many, many more don’t. They hold no fear of the Popes and CC. They are just waiting for the CC to approach them … and make them an offer of re-unification, like we have done with the Anglicans. Billy Graham speaks for a large # of the Evangelicals … and now his son Franklin also desires to work closely with Catholics. We make gains by working jointly, in Evangelizing for Christ, and thus learn not to fear each other’s ‘church’ and leaders. I hope Pope Francis will approach the Graham Crusade / Mininstries … for Billy loved the St. Francis of history, … he was his hero !! What a perfect time for a Pope taking the name of Francis … to reach out to the Grahams and all Evangelicals … inviting them to join Catholics in World Evangelical outreach … joint ventures, where we go out in teams, two by two … to both home and world mission fields. And, large World Evangelism Crusades … jointly sponsored by the Catholic Church and those Evangelical Ministers who wish to continue what Billy Graham began.

C – As long as you avoid the Evangelicals …they will continue to be suspicious of you. We need to reach out to them, both individually and collectively as a Church. Dialogue is great, but mission projects, where we work together, will be key in breaking down errant ideas we hold about each other.
 
A-- Many of them don’t even believe we are Christian, and some of those that do accept there are Christians who are Catholic believe we should leave the CC (“come out of her”) so that we can nurture our faith better in a “bible church”.

B–Yes, it is possible. What are you planning to do?.
A- I think you over-estimate the ‘rejection’ factor. Lets look at some recent poll data on this. Christianity Today magazine does periodic polling and Catholic and Protestant matters. And the last I saw … it was quite promising that Ecumenism was alive and well.

B – I’m still ‘discerning’ on this. I know it is God’s will … that all Christians re-unite as ONE Church. That is in Sacred Scripture … which both groups accept. 🙂
So far, my research suggests many Evangelicals are ripe to work with Catholics … but, are the Catholics ready for this ‘joint’ venture ?
 
B – I’m still ‘discerning’ on this. I know it is God’s will … that all Christians re-unite as ONE Church. That is in Sacred Scripture … which both groups accept. 🙂
We pray for this often - for the Church to be reuinited - but as CATHOLIC - not Protestant.
So far, my research suggests many Evangelicals are ripe to work with Catholics … but, are the Catholics ready for this ‘joint’ venture ?
But not if it means accepting Protestant doctrine. No way. Like I said in my first post - been there, done that. Now that I have been a Catholic for almost 40 years, there is NO WAY I’m going to give an inch to Protestantism.

You seem to have studied a lot about Protestant doctrine (which changes depending on the denomination and/or preacher) and very little about Catholic doctrine.
 
Let me make the case for Billy Graham … as the steady friend of Catholics and the RCC.
  1. He was great friends with Cardinal Cushing
  2. He always invited Catholics and the local Catholic Churches to join him at his Crusades. And, he had Priests and Nuns on the Altar with him… when he spoke to the masses.
  3. He even allowed priests to serve as ‘organizers’ for his Crusades in some cities.
  4. He never wished to ‘convert’ Catholics to other churches. … saying in 1997 interview " I never preached against the RCC beliefs"
  5. He received Doctorate in Humane Letters in 1966 from Belmont Abbey, a Catholic University
  6. He receive the International Franciscan Award in 1972, from the Franciscan Friars in Minn-St. Paul
  7. In 1961 … he said “the Bible affirms ‘infant’ baptism”
  8. He disavowed OSAS … and in a 2000 yr interview said “my salvation is not assured, like it is for Mother Teresa”… acknowledging her as a sure saint in the making.
  9. He called Bishop Fulton Sheen " the greatest communicator of 20 th century".
  10. He call JP2 “the greatest Pope of the Millennium, and a great evangelist”
    11 In 1978, in a McCalls interview he said “I’ve found that my beliefs are essentially the same as those of the RCC — we only differ in some matters of latter Church Traditions”
  11. He was enamored with Pope John 23, Pope Paul 6, John Paul 1, JP2, and Benedict… and thought Vatican 2 and its stress on Ecumenism was correct.
    13… In 1981, he was invited to the Vatican by JP2… they had a private meeting lasting 2 hrs. At one point JP2 leaned forward and took hold of Billy, and pulled him up close … looking him straight in the eyes from inches away. Then the Pope said “Mr. Graham, we are Brothers” !! Billy said it was a peak experience for him … as he recalled that event many years later upon the passing of JP2. Billy was invited to the funeral, in advance by the Pope … as he realized he was soon to die. But Billy to was in poor health, and unable to attend … sent his daughter in his stead.
  12. He attended funeral Masses, when his Catholic friends died … and called the Mass & the Eucharist …“a very beautiful thing” !!
Don’t Catholics realize that the Evangelical Protestants love them, and the Catholic Church !! We can work together, in Ecumenism to further the Gospel … and show all other Protestants that it is time they too show unity with the Mother Church.
Did you read this

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10766996&postcount=95

We cannot work together because Billy Graham and other Protestants believe and teach error. It does not mean we hate Billy Graham but our primary responsibility is to correct him and his followers and get him in to the fold because he is a loving friend to us. Who in their right mind would want their friend to be in error? Or who in their right mind would want to give their friend in error the opportunity to further preach his/her errors to others?

Think about these things for a bit. Then it will be clear to you why we cannot join forces to evangelize just yet.
 
Let me make the case for Billy Graham … as the steady friend of Catholics and the RCC.
  1. He was great friends with Cardinal Cushing
  2. He always invited Catholics and the local Catholic Churches to join him at his Crusades. And, he had Priests and Nuns on the Altar with him… when he spoke to the masses.
  3. He even allowed priests to serve as ‘organizers’ for his Crusades in some cities.
  4. He never wished to ‘convert’ Catholics to other churches. … saying in 1997 interview " I never preached against the RCC beliefs"
  5. He received Doctorate in Humane Letters in 1966 from Belmont Abbey, a Catholic University
  6. He receive the International Franciscan Award in 1972, from the Franciscan Friars in Minn-St. Paul
  7. In 1961 … he said “the Bible affirms ‘infant’ baptism”
  8. He disavowed OSAS … and in a 2000 yr interview said “my salvation is not assured, like it is for Mother Teresa”… acknowledging her as a sure saint in the making.
  9. He called Bishop Fulton Sheen " the greatest communicator of 20 th century".
  10. He call JP2 “the greatest Pope of the Millennium, and a great evangelist”
    11 In 1978, in a McCalls interview he said “I’ve found that my beliefs are essentially the same as those of the RCC — we only differ in some matters of latter Church Traditions”
  11. He was enamored with Pope John 23, Pope Paul 6, John Paul 1, JP2, and Benedict… and thought Vatican 2 and its stress on Ecumenism was correct.
    13… In 1981, he was invited to the Vatican by JP2… they had a private meeting lasting 2 hrs. At one point JP2 leaned forward and took hold of Billy, and pulled him up close … looking him straight in the eyes from inches away. Then the Pope said “Mr. Graham, we are Brothers” !! Billy said it was a peak experience for him … as he recalled that event many years later upon the passing of JP2. Billy was invited to the funeral, in advance by the Pope … as he realized he was soon to die. But Billy to was in poor health, and unable to attend … sent his daughter in his stead.
  12. He attended funeral Masses, when his Catholic friends died … and called the Mass & the Eucharist …“a very beautiful thing” !!
Don’t Catholics realize that the Evangelical Protestants love them, and the Catholic Church !! We can work together, in Ecumenism to further the Gospel … and show all other Protestants that it is time they too show unity with the Mother Church.
why didn’t he come into the church ?
 
why didn’t he come into the church ?
Maybe JP2 told him to stay put, … & keep doing the good World Wide evangelization he was doing. They were both ‘brothers’ … called of God to witness to the world. Both were superb in their mission in life. Both supported each other. Graham was my first evangelist hero … then JP2 !

John Paul knew Graham was called of God … to preach the ‘good news’ to the nations … this was certainly topic ONE for them in their 2 hr meeting. Billy Graham had a Catholic, Universal heart … he was one with Catholicism, except for a few of her Traditions. It was probably these traditions that kept him from swimming the Tiber.
 
our primary responsibility is to correct him and his followers and get him in to the fold because he is a loving friend to us. Who in their right mind would want their friend to be in error? Or who in their right mind would want to give their friend in error the opportunity to further preach his/her errors to others?
Hello! … how can you say this ? Didn’t JP2 and Cardinal Cushing befriend Billy? Didn’t many Catholics attend his crusades and pray for the lost to find Jesus via his gospel messages ?
 
Yes. The Council of Trent considered the doctrines of the Reformers a significant departure from the gospel that has been handed down from the Apostles. The Apostles taught that faith is never “alone” - that it always exists together with hope and love. The Apostles taught that saving faith is faith that works, and that it will always be accompanied by the obedience of faith. They taught that those who are “in Christ” will follow His commandments, such that their faith that saves is never separated from the works produced by it.
That’s basically what I and many Protestants believe: We’re saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. Any faith that is devoid of works is not saving faith. I think the major difference between Prots and Catholics is not whether works are necessary, but what works are necessary for.
 
Protestants believe: We’re saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. Any faith that is devoid of works is not saving faith. I think the major difference between Prots and Catholics is not whether works are necessary, but what works are necessary for
Well said ! I think Catholics can agree with your characterization above. We are very close in our beliefs … its just the semantics that sometime divide us —unnecessarily so !

Koineman —

thanks for clarifying the Protestant understandings & being a positive addition to God’s Ecumenism plans, not a divisive negative 👍
 
Actually, it’s Arminian: believe first, then you are born again. In the Calvinist view, people are born again first, then they believe. The sinner’s prayer is strongly Arminian because of this.
Yes, we believe first … then we pray the prayer in full faith, and we are reborn & baptized by fire. It may be Arminian … but, originally it was Universal Church Apostolic, by some 15-16 centuries — dating to the 12, plus Paul.
 
C – As long as you avoid the Evangelicals …they will continue to be suspicious of you. We need to reach out to them, both individually and collectively as a Church. Dialogue is great, but mission projects, where we work together, will be key in breaking down errant ideas we hold about each other.
I don’t think Militant can be said to “avoid Evangelicals”. It wouldn’t surprise me if he did not come on these threads deliberately looking for them!

He even has his own website with materials he has created speciallly for them. 😃

I agree with you, we do need to join with others of ANY faith, or NO faith in mission projects to work together to serve the needs of every created person. I also agree that it is in these personal relationships where most of the tolerance grows, an misunderstandings are solved.

Had you considered using the CAF tract instead of the 4 spiritual laws?

“It’s no secret that young people today have been losing their faith in droves.”

You know, I lost my faith in droves when I was a teenager too. Fortunately, I got it back. 😃
 
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A- I think you over-estimate the 'rejection' factor.
Perhaps. I was pulled out of the Church by very anti-Catholic Baptists, and then sojourned among various Protestant Evangelical communities for the next 20 years, culminating with 3 years in an Evangelical Seminary. I got the question “so what Church are you going to join” about once a day because it as assumed that, since I became a believer, I would cease to be Catholic.

I have encountered people on CAF that definitely also feel this way.
Lets look at some recent poll data on this. Christianity Today magazine does periodic polling and Catholic and Protestant matters. And the last I saw … it was quite promising that Ecumenism was alive and well.
Ecumenisme being alive and well does not exclude the fact that there are large communities of Evangelicals that think Catholics are not Christians, or that they should leaave their Church and attend a “bible” Church. This what Campus Crusade promotes people to do.
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B --  I'm still 'discerning' on this.  I know it is God's will ... that all Christians re-unite as ONE Church.  That is in Sacred Scripture ... which both groups accept.  :)
Amen. 👍
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So far, my research suggests many Evangelicals are ripe to work with Catholics ... but, are the Catholics ready for this 'joint' venture ?
There are innumerable joint missionary projects where Catholics and Evangelicals work together. There are also groups searching for common ground, such as ECT. They continue to work for common ground despite castigation by some of their opposing evangelical brethren.

It seems a good way to proceed would be to read the documents on both sides of these controversies, so that you can be well prepared in a discussion. You will find opposition from both Evangelicals and Catholics, you will find cooperation from both as well.

While you are studying polls about the great progress of Ecumenism, also educate yourself about the “opposition”, well represented by the Berean Beacon, a group that believes such Ecumenism is gravely wrong and misdirected.
 
John Paul knew Graham was called of God … to preach the ‘good news’ to the nations … this was certainly topic ONE for them in their 2 hr meeting. Billy Graham had a Catholic, Universal heart … he was one with Catholicism, except for a few of her Traditions. It was probably these traditions that kept him from swimming the Tiber.
And herein lies the problem. We cannot say that anyone is “one” with Catholicism when one rejects any of the Sacred Traditions. It is rejection of these that keeps us improperly joined in faith. The faith is One, and we are not at liberty to tear, divide, or select peicemeal from it.
Hello! … how can you say this ? Didn’t JP2 and Cardinal Cushing befriend Billy? Didn’t many Catholics attend his crusades and pray for the lost to find Jesus via his gospel messages ?
Befriending Evangelicals is our Christian duty, as much as it is to correct them for their errors in faith. Yes, we can pray with them, and for them, and enter into missionary work with them, but we cannot fall into the mistake you are making above, that just because a person has a heart for Jesus they are “one with the Catholic faith”.
 
That’s basically what I and many Protestants believe: We’re saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone. Any faith that is devoid of works is not saving faith. I think the major difference between Prots and Catholics is not whether works are necessary, but what works are necessary for.
I guess that depends on who is involved in the dialogue. I have many Protestants, in here as well as outside virtual reality, that works are of no value, are irrelvant, or are as “filthy rags” before God.

I think the issue of what works are necessary “for” is a great topic. You up for another thread? 😃
 
A-- We don’t know all those two discussed. 2 hrs was a long time to discuss the faith. And, we know JP2 considered Graham his Brother in Christ !! John Paul had arranged for Mr. Graham’s Crusade in Poland … at the very moment he became Pope. Is that just co-incidence ? Don’t we see God’s hand at work in fostering Ecumenism of Catholics and Evangelicals ?
It’s irrelevant actually. I choose not to read into events things that are not there. Nor is there evidence that John Paul the Great “arranged for Mr. Graham’s Crusade in Poland”. You’ll need to provide documentation of that instead of your personal conjecture.
B-- C. Militant … don’t you appreciate how hard Graham worked to foster relations with Catholics ? JP2 did !! And, many anti-Catholics
hate Graham for his love of the CC. But, many, many more don’t. They hold no fear of the Popes and CC. They are just waiting for the CC to approach them … and make them an offer of re-unification, like we have done with the Anglicans. Billy Graham speaks for a large # of the Evangelicals … and now his son Franklin also desires to work closely with Catholics. We make gains by working jointly, in Evangelizing for Christ, and thus learn not to fear each other’s ‘church’ and leaders. I hope Pope Francis will approach the Graham Crusade / Mininstries … for Billy loved the St. Francis of history, … he was his hero !! What a perfect time for a Pope taking the name of Francis … to reach out to the Grahams and all Evangelicals … inviting them to join Catholics in World Evangelical outreach … joint ventures, where we go out in teams, two by two … to both home and world mission fields. And, large World Evangelism Crusades … jointly sponsored by the Catholic Church and those Evangelical Ministers who wish to continue what Billy Graham began. I think you’re pipe dreaming because the Evangelicals around here pretty much consider us non-Christians. Again…reaching out to them is not the same as joining them and using their messed up materials and errant doctrines for some kind of warm fuzzy misguided concept of evangelism. As I have repeatedly pointed out, (and you seem to try to ignore) we already have vastly better materials and at least an equal number of people (and very likely more per capita) who are doing all we can to share the Catholic faith in its fullness of truth. Frankly, Hell will freeze over before I’ll ever use 4 Spiritual Laws or any other n-C materials to evangelize. We are responsible for what we share and compromise is never going to be an option. Your ideas would lead a bunch of people from unbelief and ignorance to very serious doctrinal errors and very possibly to anti-Catholic foolishness. It’s that very kind of bad judgement that has led some nominal Catholics astray and to that very error.

If you want to win souls, then get hold of some of the materials I linked above and start doing your part, but don’t even consider using n-C materials or trying to team up with them (or you can go right ahead and talk to them about it and you’ll pretty quickly see that you’re wasting your time.) I’m willing to bet that you don’t own a single Catholic tract and have never given one to anyone else in the prayerful hope that they find the truth that will set them free.
C – As long as you avoid the Evangelicals …they will continue to be suspicious of you. We need to reach out to them, both individually and collectively as a Church. Dialogue is great, but mission projects, where we work together, will be key in breaking down errant ideas we hold about each other.
There are no joint “mission projects” aside from some of the pro-life work going on, but they’ll look at you like to grew an extra head when you propose such a thing. You seem happy to allow people to be led into error by people who preach 500 year old heresies in the name of ecumenism and evangelism and that my friend is wrong and possibly sinful.

Truth is truth and anything less than the fullness of truth is not going to set sinners free and we are responsible for what we share.

You still haven’t provided any documentation showing either JPII or Dr. Hahn making these statements so I think you are just reading something into them that is really not there.
 
And herein lies the problem. We cannot say that anyone is “one” with Catholicism when one rejects any of the Sacred Traditions. It is rejection of these that keeps us improperly joined in faith. The faith is One, and we are not at liberty to tear, divide, or select peicemeal from it.

Befriending Evangelicals is our Christian duty, as much as it is to correct them for their errors in faith. Yes, we can pray with them, and for them, and enter into missionary work with them, but we cannot fall into the mistake you are making above, that just because a person has a heart for Jesus they are “one with the Catholic faith”.
Very well said! :clapping::clapping::clapping:
 
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