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april32010
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thats absurd
The 'New Evangelization' for Catholics ... why not join with the Protestant Evangelicals ?
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guanophore
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Didn’t you say Scott Hahn and the Pope? Neither of these is Hahn, and the one that quotes Cathoilc sources is actually delivered by a Baptist.Baptists and Catholics join in New Evangelization efforts … with Pope Benedict
www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2013/january-february/catholics-and-baptists-together.html
www.beesondivinity.com/fromthedean/posts/vatican
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Koineman
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Yes–for the purpose of earning salvation. That is what Protestants almost always mean when they say that works are of no value. When you press the issue further, I can almost guarantee they will admit that God does care about good works, and that good works are valuable, but not for meriting salvation.
Sure, go ahead and start one. I am in the church fathers thread for the long haul (it could be years!), but I’ll chime in on a new one about works when I think I have decent (name removed by moderator)ut.I think the issue of what works are necessary “for” is a great topic. You up for another thread?
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brb3
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G-4 …
I looked it over. But, I believe it is better to present the pure Gospel message … rather than wasting time fighting Chick and others … who are anti-catholic. Did Paul waste his time fighting those who rejected the Gospel he gave out … or did he ‘shake off the dust’, and move on to more fertile soil, where the Gospel message could be sown ?
The way we convince our enemies … is to love them, and show them the Beatitudes like Christ did — rather than to wage ‘turf wars’ / ‘crusades’ against each other. That only further solidifies the hatred and distrust.
That’s why I like the Four Spiritual Law tracts and message. Over 2.5 Billion have gone out over last 50 years. The 4 Laws is the best know and most widely circulated Gospel message tract in history of mankind. CRU has 25,000 active staff and a half-Billion dollar annual budget. And, its founder, Bill Bright was very sympathetic to the Catholic Churches teachings !!! Both he, Billy Graham, and Chuck Colson were big fans of Catholicism and Ecumenism effort of our Popes, esp JP2 !
And, I know the value of this Tract … from personal standpoint. MY EXPERIENCE with it … has convinced me God honors its message, and can use it to bring the lost into the fold of the Good Shepherd. But, I agree with you and C.Militant — we never are to tell someone God has saved them simply because they prayed the Tract’s Sinner’s Prayer. We tell the that if they believe its message, make contrite full confession, and pray to Christ to save us ---- He will do so, w/o fail, if we persist in our belief and confession of Him as Lord, desire water baptism and Church affiliation, desire full discipleship, and perservere to the end !!
Now, how do we know for sure the Tract’s message works ? The proof is in the ‘changed lives’ of those who are serious in their commitment and confession. Their lives are amazingly changed … and the ‘fire’ of the HS comes upon them … which confirms God has justified them, placed his HS within them ---- which marks/ confirms their adoption.
This is the proof that convinced Peter that Cornelius and family were accepted by God, and this is the proof that convinced the 11 … that Saul was now a new creation Paul. And, this is the proof we have too … that Christ indwells us today. And, the new adoption … begins to do good works … befitting his/her high calling in Christ. So it is written, so it is done.
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april32010
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which is what the Church represents
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april32010
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if one knows the fullness of the Churches teaching and rejects it ,
that doesn’t bode well for that persons Eternal Salvation
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guanophore
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So you are thinking of producing your own 4 spiritual laws, that are not based on heretical ideas?
I agree that there is a lot of material here that could be omitted. For example, some people have never heard of Jack Chick, so why go there?
He did both, ,depending upon the situation. And he never left converts without catechesis.
Acts 9:29
He spoke and argued with the Hellenists…
Acts 17:1-3
there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three sabbath days argued with them from the scriptures, 3 explaining and proving
Acts 17:17-18:1
17 So he argued in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons, and also in the marketplace every day with those who happened to be there. 18 Also some Epicurean and Stoic philosophers debated with him. Some said, “What does this babbler want to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign divinities.” (This was because he was telling the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.) 19 So they took him and brought him to the Areopagus…some scoffed; but others said, “We will hear you again about this.” 33 At that point Paul left them. 34 But some of them joined him and became believers…
Acts 19:8-10
8 He entered the synagogue and for three months spoke out boldly, and argued persuasively about the kingdom of God. 9 When some stubbornly refused to believe and spoke evil of the Way before the congregation, he left them, taking the disciples with him, and argued daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. 10 This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia, both Jews and Greeks, heard the word of the Lord.
By the way, I am in hot pursuit of the mp3’s from the lecture hall of Tyrannus. If you know where I can get them, I will pay a very good price.
Could you imagine!? Two years of Paul “daily”! This one verse makes me wonder why Protestants think the whole gospel is in the Scriptures.I agree. My primary form of evangelization is to live the Beatitudes. My evangelistic philosophy is Franciscian:
“Preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words.”
So, if you were given, or ordered a case of 1000, where would you distribute them?
Yes, I have been influenced by it as well, and used it with others. I was heavily involved with CC in college, and there was NO Catholic presence anywhere.
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guanophore
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When a person has this degree of passion about something, it usually means that they have a calling regarding it.
Changed lives occur through conversion. The tracts themselves do not create conversion, but the grace of the Holy Spirit. The question is, can conversion, such as the 3000 at Pentecost, occur without the Tract?
This is a Protestant formulation of the conversion experience. The Apostles taught that it is baptism that causes the mark, and confirms the adoption. Many people have an emotional experience of “fire” and feel in their heart that God has justified them, but justification before God is not a matter of burning in the bosom.
Calvanists will say that this “confirmation” in the heart cannot happen unless God has justified them, and in fact, it is having been justified that enables them to pray the prayer and make the confession of faith.
We will not limit God in reaching persons outside of the Sacraments, but Jesus and the Apostles taught that the normative means of entering His One Church and becoming a Christian is to be born again of water and Spirit (in baptism). This is one of the major differences between what the Apostles’ taught, and what modern evangelicals believe.
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Bonnie
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You seem hell-bent on being Protestant rather than Catholic. You base your “proof” on emotion & anecdotes.
I can give you an anecdote from my own life. I was raised Protestant - Baptist & Pentacostal - and had the most screwed up personal theology imaginable. I lived by my rules until the Holy Spirit gently led me into the Catholic Church. There I have remained for nearly 40 years.
Even my mother (who cried when she found out I was becoming a Catholic - she thought I was headed straight for hell) eventually came around to seeing that my husband and I, and many of our Catholic friends, really were Christians. Tho she still had doubts about the Church. Even my dad, who was raised in a very anti-Catholic family, ended up embracing some Catholic ideals before his death. He had a small crucifix - where it came from, I don’t know - that he attached to his desk. I have it now.
Had I been wishy-washy about my faith, they never would have realized that Catholics can be Christians.
So from my experience, I would never leave the Catholic Church, I would never use Protestant theology to try to convert anyone. I’m happy to remain Catholic - I don’t think you are.
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brb3
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Bonnie …
What have I said that makes you think I wish to return to Baptist roots ?
I went from Baptist … to Non-denom … to Prodigal [for many years] … to recovery from satan by Catholic Church !! Don’t you, I, G-4, and zillions of others realize life is a Drama being lived out. Sometimes we are advancing cause of Christ … often we fall back into errant living as Seculars. But, we have ‘beginnings’, ‘present tense’ & our ‘futures’.
Life is not over til we see Peter @ the Gate, or perhaps Mary … and for sure Christ, who will burn off all the dross, purging us of it and making us fit for the Kingdom.
Its not what we call ourselves [this denom or that one] … but, that we cooperate with the grace Christ sends us … and live as his Disciples, fully confessed, and filled with his spirit.
Our priests and Popes understand this, they know many Protestants are God’s children, and will see the Kingdom. Ask them yourself ---- I’ve had Bishops ask me why I converted !! They know God saves us ‘where we are’, even if outside the CC … provided we are steadfast followers of Christ — til our last day. We know JP2 believed Billy Graham was Christ’s steadfast disciple and evangelist … and instead of telling Billy “there is no salvation outside the Church”, as some here are want to do, he told Billy “Mr. Graham, we are Brothers [in Christ]” !!!
Now, I’m a strong proponent of the CC … it’s amazing. So, I have no plans to return to Protestant beginnings. But, I wish all God’s children to join together as ONE Church. Ecumenism is our desire for all. And, if it is not realized by some of God’s children in this Kingdom come World, it surely will happen for them in the Kingdom come in Heaven.
Just look at your family … its happening for you. Just as for my family too
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Bonnie
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Well, it might have something to do with your insistance we all adopt the 4 spiritual laws for evangelization in spite of being shown - over and over - that they conflict with Catholic theology.
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april32010
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wow! thats all,a proponent.i’m a proponent of washing my hands before dinner.
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april32010
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i hope you’re not suggesting that a Bishop would tell someone that they would have been justified in not converting if one knew the truth of the Church
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brb3
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nope …
the 4 Laws and Sinner’s Prayer are c/w Catholic theology. They are scripturally based and formulated on firm theologic grounds. However, I do concede that some of CRU’s 25,000 staff, of many different Protestant backgrounds, may propose that converts attend their particular denominational church… for a few Sundays, if the convert has never been churched before.
We can certainly accept that does happen, its human nature to think our ‘church’ is the one and best of the bunch. But, the basic 4 Laws and Sinner’s Prayer is ‘rock-solid’ Apostolic understanding of the 11 and Paul … given them by Tradition, and later expressed in scripture when it was inspired of God and penned by the Christian writers of 1st century.
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brb3
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… I’m saying my Bishop, upon hearing my conversion to Catholic Church … was surprised I felt so compelled to leave my Protestant brethren, saying that the Protestants were saved just like the Catholics, and didn’t need to convert to Catholic Church. He said the CC’s understanding on this changed with Vatican 2. Before, it was believed an imperative— but after Vat. 2, no longer essential or taught as so by the Pope and Magi.
Was he wrong ?
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april32010
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no ,Catholics cannot accept this,the Catholic Church is the One Holy,Catholic ,and Apostolic Church. THE ONE
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april32010
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Koineman
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Rather, I think they’d say that it’s their regeneration that enables them to pray the prayer, etc.
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Bonnie
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c/w means “consistant with?” If it does, then no, they are NOT consistant with Catholic theology, especially numbers 3 & 4 and the Sinner’s Prayer.
They are fimly based on a PROTESTANT understanding of Scripture.
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