The New is in the Old concealed, and the Old is in the New revealed...

[lak611]

A couple of points:

First, rather briefly, I want to say to Apophasis, that you seem to be forgetting something about the OT prophets. You keep saying that “they knew nothing” about this present age…But, that is impossible! Why? Because they did not write their own thoughts, they wrote as the Holy Spirit gave them the words to write. Therefore, what they wrote was of all that had happened, was happening, & would yet happen after their day. Because God being the ultimate author of all Scripture, the OT knows the NT. Indeed, the OT knows of things yet to come, even now. We just don’t have the knowledge we need to understand it yet.

I agree 100%.

Second, I need to weigh in on something that I see happening here. This is something that few Catholics can be expected to be familiar with, but which pops up in fundamentalist circles on a regular basis.
There is a picture that is printed, over & over, in books abot premillenial/pretribulational prophecy. It is a picture of a man in the dress of biblical times, with his hand to his face, shading his eyes from the sun as he stands in a desert, looking out across a ravine in the sand at another dune the height of the one he is on.
Under/next to/otherwise accompanying this picture is an explantion of the pic. It says, that this is a prophet of the OT, looking out across time at the future, seeing the end of time, but with the Church Age hidden in the ravine…
I have to have seen this pic (or a variation thereof) at least a thousand times…What I have never seen, not once, is any biblical backing for the statement that this is a graphic of the prophets of old…
The picture seems to be drawn, in fact, to distract the reader from the fact that there is **absolutely no such biblical statement at **all. Not one. Not anywhere.
However, in reading from, or discussing with, people who follow a premillenial (esp. pretrib) interpretation of the Bible, they all will draw on this illustration to “prove” that their opinion is the truth. The picture, IMHO, has taken on a kind of strangely canonical status of its own. It may not be considered as inspired as the Bible itself; but, woe unto the poor soul who questions its accuracy!
As gently as possible, let me say: Any interpretation of Scripture that requires a cartoon-- based on no Scripture at all-- That is an interpretation that is in deep, deep ( ahem!! censored!!!).

I have never seen this picture, but I do think it sounds silly! How is it that somebody could trust a piece of art on the same level as the Bible? The Church has NEVER taught that the Holy Spirit gave divine revelation through artwork.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

My version of Psalm 118 is Jesus free. The stone is Israel and the builders are the world powers of the time. Egypt, Babylon and Assyria.

I actually tend to agree with you on this Valke2-- that the stone can also be applied to Israel in a general sense of the pagan nations rejecting the wisdom of offered by Judaism and persecuting them for offering this divine wisdom.

Many people do not realize the spiritual implications of the Jews going through the holocaust, and how the holocaust refers back to the sacrificial pattern of the ‘burnt offerings’ found in the Levitical ordinances.

The burnt offering was wholly consumed by fire on the altar, and the whole of which “ascended” in the smoke to God. The meaning of the whole burnt offering seems to be that which is in the original idea of all sacrifice, the offering of the sacrificer of himself, sould and body, to God-- the submission of his will to the will of the Lord.

They seem to be not aware of how this word holocaust implies a total and willing sacrifice-- and that devout Jewish people generally believe that they were willingly offering themselves up before God by standing for their faith in the Almighty during the terrible persecution under Nazi Germany.

I also find it ironic that those who were so determined to wipe the Jews off of the face of the earth inevitably aided the Jews to return to their homeland in great numbers-- that through persecution the Jews actually became stronger than the enemies that were trying to destroy them.

In my own opinion, I find a chilling analogy between the Jews becoming stronger after enduring the Holocaust and Jesus becoming glorified after his death on the cross. Indeed, all things seem to be converging toward their ultimate end, with the persecution of the Jews throughout the Christian era being an extended reflection of Christ suffering on the cross for our sins.

It all seems to point toward the Pentecost of the Holocaust to me…

 

[CactusJack]

Wow…

My head is still spinning from reading all 61 previous posts in this thread…

What a wonderful, edifying thread it is…

One concept which really jumped out for me was
the one concerning the Tower of Babal (Confusion) vs. the Baptism of the Spirit (Understanding God’s Mystery). The Holy Spirit actually showed me that directly about 11 years ago, exactly as you, Ex Nihilo, described it ! ! !

Another place, in the OT, where the church is prefigured, is in the Song of Solomon. Of course it would have been impossible for those Isrealites to see the church in it, but the church
is indeed prefigured. It can only be understood
after the coming of Christ, His resurrection (leaving the bride), and the coming of the Holy Spirit to enlighten this New Bride.

St. Paul was indeed given the ministry of this great mystery, Christ and the Church. No man taught him these things, but the Holy Spirit of Christ taught him. And Paul identified himself as the one called out to be the apostle to the Gentiles… which is us ! ! !

Paul was given the understanding and his prayer, in Ephesians, was that WE would be given the Spirit of understanding, so that we, too, would receive clarity on Christ and the Church, the One New Man!

The scriptures give the revelation of truth and the Holy Spirit then illumines the minds of those who read and hear these things. This certainly is a progressive illumination as history has proven out.

Many things are yet to come which we don’t understand but will as God deems necessary for us to go on in His way in order to fultill His divine purposes. I’m still grappling with many things in Revelation, but trusting God to reveal what I need to know and give me peace concerning the things which still mystify me.

Oh… Ex Nihilo… that shadow pic… That looks like the statue of David ??? !!!

Am I right??

Blessings on you Ex Nihilo and apophasis…

Great dialogue!!!

CactusJack

 

[Zooey]

I agree 100%.

I have never seen this picture, but I do think it sounds silly! How is it that somebody could trust a piece of art on the same level as the Bible? The Church has NEVER taught that the Holy Spirit gave divine revelation through artwork.

I had always thought that this had started with Tim Lahaye (Left Behind), but I have found the same thing in several old, old books. I now have no clue as to the origin.
But I have heard people say, quite sincerely, “Well, but you know, when the OT prophets spoke, it was like they were standing out in the desert looking across a ravine…”
And we are talking Sola Scripturea folks here… http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif…

 

[lak611]

I had always thought that this had started with Tim Lahaye (Left Behind), but I have found the same thing in several old, old books. I now have no clue as to the origin.
But I have heard people say, quite sincerely, “Well, but you know, when the OT prophets spoke, it was like they were standing out in the desert looking across a ravine…”
And we are talking Sola Scripturea folks here… http://bestsmileys.com/clueless/1.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/clueless/4.gif…

Probably it started with John Nelson Darby, the father of dispensationalism, or perhaps with C. Scofield, another famous dispensationalist whose Bibles are still all over Christian bookstores to this day.

 

[Zooey]

Probably it started with John Nelson Darby

Very possibly. That would be a period of time with widespread illiteracy. Most people could not read the Bible, & no doubt some teachers used some of the methods that I remember from my childhood in Sunday School: “Chalk Talks” & “Flannel Graphs”…Illustrated studies of Scripture.
I want to be clear, though, that I don’t think that there is a whole world of people out there who realize that they are basing so much on an illustration. Rather, that popular prophecy teachers are calling on this to explain their ideas, and because it sounds familiar, many people are assuming that they are remembering something that they read in the Bible!
Yes, we read the Bible, but many times we hear people say that “The Bible says…” and go on to say something that is from somewhere else…One that often makes me chuckle is “Cleanliness is next to godliness”. That’s John Wesley, instructing new Christian believers to keep themselves clean, in an age when bathing was often omitted for months on end!

My point in all this, is that it can be very easy to be confused by the seeming knowledge of someone who claims to be an “expert on prophecy”. We all need to check what these folks say against the actual Scripture.
And when we do, of course, we find a whole world of foreshadowings that we never saw, until we looked “with a clean eye”, as our British cousins would say it. ( Do you have any idea how old I was when I finally recognized the Ark of the Covenant as a foreshadowing of the Virgin Mary?? I needed that clean eye!!)

 

[lak611]

My point in all this, is that it can be very easy to be confused by the seeming knowledge of someone who claims to be an “expert on prophecy”. We all need to check what these folks say against the actual Scripture.
And when we do, of course, we find a whole world of foreshadowings that we never saw, until we looked “with a clean eye”, as our British cousins would say it. ( Do you have any idea how old I was when I finally recognized the Ark of the Covenant as a foreshadowing of the Virgin Mary?? I needed that clean eye!!)

This is very true! I still am learning about the foreshadowings all the time. I didn’t know that the Ark of the Covenant was a foreshadowing of the Virgin Mary until I joined these forums last summer (my join date was lost in the crash ).

 

[Zooey]

My version of Psalm 118 is Jesus free. The stone is Israel and the builders are the world powers of the time. Egypt, Babylon and Assyria.

Yes, and that is a perfectly valid interpretation–not that you needed me to tell you that!!
This, I think, speaks to the point of this thread. There is a depth to the Scriptures, that requires us to be “careful & prayerful”, as my grandmother liked to tell me as a little girl.

I remember that I was watching a WW2 movie, though I can’t tell you which one it might have been, & they were depicting the liberation of one of the Nazi concentration camps, & I felt that I could hear the prophet Isaiah speaking from the Suffering Servant passages…It was the first time in my life that I had ever seen that connection!! “He had no beauty… His visage was marred beyond the appearance of a man”. The hair stood up on the back of my neck…
And yet, you see, as a Christian, I also knew that those words applied to Jesus Christ’s appearance after the Roman soldiers were done with their torture of Him. I had just never seen that there was more there…

 

[lak611]

Yes, and that is a perfectly valid interpretation–not that you needed me to tell you that!!
This, I think, speaks to the point of this thread. There is a depth to the Scriptures, that requires us to be “careful & prayerful”, as my grandmother liked to tell me as a little girl.

Another great example that nobody has mentioned yet is of the Prophet Jonah being in the belly of the whale for 3 days. Jesus mentioned that when the Pharisees asked Him for a sign. He was foreshadowing His death and resurrection (He would be in the tomb for 3 days).

 

[Valke2]

Another great example that nobody has mentioned yet is of the Prophet Jonah being in the belly of the whale for 3 days. Jesus mentioned that when the Pharisees asked Him for a sign. He was foreshadowing His death and resurrection (He would be in the tomb for 3 days).

The use of three days is used when Abrahm descends from the mountain with Isaac, Jonah, Jesus and in other religions and perhaps other places in the Torah which I can’t think of.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

 

[apophasis]

Psalm 118:22The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone…

This is a prophecy regarding the Messiah, not the Church.

Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone?

Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.

Jesus referred to Himself as the “stone” which the builders rejected but becomes the “capstone.” But AGAIN, Mr. Ex Nihilo, this is all in reference to Israel’s rejection of her promised Messiah/King. It has absolutely no reference to the Church He would build AFTER the national rejection of Him, after He ascends bodily back to heaven. It has absolutely no reference to the administration of this present Church age which the Apostle Paul calls a *“mystery which for ages has been hidden in God…which in other generations was NOT MADE KNOWN to the sons of men (O.T. prophets), as it has NOW been revealed to His holy APOSTLES and prophets (N.T.) in the Spirit.”*Paul makes it quite clear, my friend, that God spoke nothing of this Church age to the O.T. prophets. It is Paul who has given us insight into this previously, unknown mystery.

IOW, you cannot go back into the O.T. and find the Church prophetically “concealed” there. Those prophets knew nothing of it. The Messiah Himself, yes. His incarnation, yes. His royal birth, yes. His ministry to national Israel, yes. His national rejection, yes. His subsequent death and bodily resurrection, yes. The future time of “Jacob’s trouble,” i.e., the “Day of the Lord” (the Tribulation period), yes. The future, glorious reign of that nation’s promised King/Messiah from their holy city Jerusalem, yes. But search with all your diligence and you’ll still not find the Church or this whole church administration spoken about by those prophets. Those Hebrew prophets spoke to and about their people, their nation and the kingdom promised to them through the reign of their Messiah - but not the Church.

What did the prophets mean apophasis when they said the stone the builders rejected has become the capstone?

That the very One that nation would reject would be their true Messiah and that despite that rejection He will yet, literally, reign on His father David’s throne (as promised) over Israel and the Gentile nations. The promised Kingdom was only postponed by their rejection, not replaced or spiritually fulfilled by the Church. Paul makes this VERY clear in his Epistles.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Must I point out to you that you’re quoting Jesus, not an O.T. prophet? Yes, Jesus foretold of the building of His Church. He also foretold of His being rejected by His nation. It is true that the Head of the Church, the “Body of Christ,” is Israel’s resurrected and ascended but rejected Messiah/King, but that does not now make the Church “spiritual” Israel, some kind of “spiritual” fulfillment of the literal Kingdom spoken about by the Hebrew prophets. Those prophecies must yet be literally fulfilled. They’re still very valid.

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

I know what you said.

You said that the idea of Christ building his Church after the national rejection of Israel’s Messiah/King was not revealed through the O.T. prophets.

But you said I was claiming that the O.T. prophets did not prophesy of their nation’s rejection of their Messianic King. I said no such thing!!! I did say, however, that those prophets did not prophesy about this whole administration regarding this Church age, the building of His Church in the Spirit, AFTER His rejection and AFTER His bodily return to sit on the right hand of the Majesty on High (to share His heavenly Father’s throne) and function there, interceding as High Priest and Advocate before the Father, for His Church. The key word being “AFTER.” Those prophets were given no word concerning what would happen immediately AFTER their Messiah’s death, resurrection and bodily ascension back to heaven. This was a mystery only revealed to the Apostles and to us through Paul’s Epistles.

I disagree. That’s basically what my whole reply is about.

I know. And as I have pointed out numerous times, your personal disagreement (and that of your church) is with Paul, not me. I’m just pointing it out to you. It is true that the Messiah and His redemptive work on the cross were prophetically concealed in the “Old” and literally revealed in the “New,” but the revelation of this Church age (which began at Pentecost) was not prophetically “concealed” in the “Old.” It was not even prophetically revealed to those O.T. prophets. That’s why we have Paul’s divinely inspired Epistles, to explain to us what and who this Church is.

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

First of all, you seem to be finally admitting that the Hebrew prophets did indeed prophesy about ISRAEL being given a new heart according to the New Covenant God would make with that nation-- something which I’ve been stressing from the beginning.

No you haven’t. What you’ve been trying to stress is that this N.C. found in Jer. 31:31ff is now “spiritually” fulfilled in the Church. The unbiblical notion that the Church now replaces national Israel, the nation to whom this New Covenant is literally addressed in Jeremiah. This being the erroneous, eschatological position of Amillennialism (both Catholic and Protestant); the eschatological position to which you adhere and base your whole “concealed/revealed” theory concerning the split of the church. A theory proved bogus based on the Pauline FACT that this whole church age was not even prophetically revealed to men in past generations (i.e., the O.T. prophets).

Are you still insisting that this New Covenant is not actually referring to the Church, the very means by which Christ himself is indeed giving us a new heart according to the New Covenant that God made starting with the nation of Israel and speading out to the Gentile nations?

If you will drop your preconceived notions and go back and read the N.C. as literally stated in Jeremiah 31:31-40, you’ll see that this divine Covenant is to be “established” with the “nation” of Israel, not individual Jews and Gentiles:"Jer. 31:33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.This New Covenant is established with national Israel “AFTER those days.” What days? Those just previously spoken about by Jeremiah in chapter thirty - the day of “Jacob’s distress” or “trouble.” The Tribulation period:Alas! For that day is great, there is none like it; and it is the time of Jacob’s distress, but he will be saved from it" (Jer. 30:7).The Lord Himself will restore that nation and establish His New Covenant with that nation:Jer 30:17-18 ‘For I will restore you to health And I will heal you of your wounds,’ declares the LORD, ‘Because they have called you an outcast, saying: “It is Zion; no one cares for her.”’ "Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob and have compassion on his dwelling places; and the city will be rebuilt on its ruin, and the palace will stand on its rightful place.And He makes this promise to national Israel and its capital city Jerusalem in the New Covenant:Jer 31:35-38 "Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; the LORD of hosts is His name: “If this fixed order departs from before Me,” declares the LORD, “then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever.” Thus says the LORD, “If the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done,” declares the LORD. “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.None of this concerns the Church Christ is building today. We (individual Jews and Gentiles) who, by the Spirit are baptized into the “body of Christ” during this Church age are saved, regenerated, cleansed of all sins and forever justified by the blood of the New Covenant which was inaugurated at the cross, but the Covenant itself will not be literally “established” with national Israel until the return of her Messiah at the end of the age (see Matt. 24:3; Acts 1:6-8). The O.T. prophets revealed this glorious event, but not the administration of this Church age. It was a mystery “hidden in God” from previous generations. Paul is very clear on this.

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

Second of all, I have to admit that you’ve added yet another dimension to this montage by noting the Bride analogy-- and claiming that National Israel is never referred to as Messiah’s “Bride” by the O.T. prophets.
But this too seems to be refuted by Isaiah 61:10 for example…Consequently, in this passage from Ezekiel 16:1-14, God most certainly appears to be speaking of himself as a lover jilted by his bride. In fact, he reminds his bride, Israel, that he had transformed her into a princess-- even though she began as only common clay of the nations around her.

It is true that ISRAEL is portrayed in the O.T. as Yahweh’s WIFE who went off to play the harlot (with foreign gods), and, spiritually speaking, committed adultery. This is especially seen in the Book of Hosea where the unfaithfulness of Israel is condemned and a spiritual divorce occurs (see Hos. 2:1-13). But Yahweh faithfully lures her back (Hos. 2:14-23):Hos 2:16 “It will come about in that day,” declares the LORD, "That you will call Me Ishi (my Husband) and will no longer call Me Baali (my Master).

Hos. 2:18-20 “In that day I will also make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, the birds of the sky and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword and war from the land, and will make them lie down in safety. I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice, in lovingkindness and in compassion, and I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know the LORD.” This takes place during the future, Millennial rule of Christ here on earth. Israel is spiritually portrayed as Yahweh’s “wife,” not His “bride.”

The Church, however, is the “Bride of Christ” (Messiah) whom He will receive unto Himself. They are not the same.

 

[apophasis]

Mr. Ex Nihilo:

As a Catholic, I am ammillenial-- and I’m sure we disagree on this whole idea about the millennium too. But that’s not really the point of this discussion.

It actually has everything to do with the discussion. It’s sad when Catholics say they’re Amillennial because they’re “Catholic.” That’s like a Jew saying he doesn’t believe in Jesus because he’s Jewish, or a JW saying he doesn’t believe in the Trinity because he’s a JW. That’s religiously branding yourself, shelving your brain, and allowing your religious leaders to do all the thinking for you.

The point is, assuming you are correct for a moment, are you actually saying that people during the New Testament era are in a safer relationship with Christ than those whom would know him during the millenium? Would the Jews and Gentiles that will apparently be saved and justified during the ‘millennium’ through faith not likewise have a special, eternal relationship with the Son?

Yes, but not as the “Bride of Christ.” Saved Jews and Gentiles during the Millennium are not part of the “Body of Christ,” His “Bride.” His Bride returns with Him at His second coming (in immortal, glorified bodies) and reigns with Him on earth for those 1000 years.

At His 2nd Advent those Jews and Gentiles who live through the Tribulation period, and are saved, are ushered into His earthly, Millennial Kingdom as mortals. Matt. 25:31-34, for example, speaks of Messiah separating the “sheep” from the “goats” at that time: believers from unbelievers.

The sheep enter His earthly, Millennial Kingdom (as mortals). The goats are cast off to await future judgment. Those who enter the Kingdom as mortals will have children during that time and their children must then also believe in order to be saved - but not all will. Isaiah speaks of this glorious time on earth:Is. 65:20 "No longer will there be in it an infant {who lives but a few} days, or an old man who does not live out his days; for the youth will die at the age of one hundred and the one who does not reach the age of one hundred will be {thought} accursed.But it will be a glorious time of peace which this earth has not experienced since the fall of man in the Garden:Is. 11:8-10 "The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Then in that day the nations will resort to the root of Jesse, who will stand as a signal for the peoples; and His resting place will be glorious."None of this, however, pertains to this Church age. Those prophets knew nothing of it. They prophesied only of things pertaining to their people and their nation in respect to their God and their Messiah. Paul is very clear on this.

Nonetheles, if your view is true, then this seems to indicate a regression away from God’s power by allowing people who were once in a special, eternal relationship with the Son during the Church age to suddently be dropped into a more precarious state in which later generations, generations who will know Christ face to face, could nonetheless lose their salvation during the millennium.

The Church reigns with Christ in resurrected, glorified bodies - in their eternal estate. Those who enter into the Millennium as mortals will not have Satan around to deceive them - he is bound for those 1000 years (Rev. 20:1-3), released once more at the very end. But many still will not believe and will inwardly rebel against the King, and again follow Satan to their destruction (Rev. 20:7-9).

So it’s revealed that even in the most wonderful, earthly conditions, men will still not believe and will rebel against God- even with Messiah literally reigning in their midst, even with Satan bound. They have no excuse except their own inward wickedness.

 

[apophasis]

A couple of points:

First, rather briefly, I want to say to Apophasis, that you seem to be forgetting something about the OT prophets. You keep saying that “they knew nothing” about this present age…But, that is impossible! Why? Because they did not write their own thoughts, they wrote as the Holy Spirit gave them the words to write. Therefore, what they wrote was of all that had happened, was happening, & would yet happen after their day. Because God being the ultimate author of all Scripture, the OT knows the NT. Indeed, the OT knows of things yet to come, even now. We just don’t have the knowledge we need to understand it yet.

Yet Paul himself, whose writings are also Holy Spirit inspired, emphatically states that this church administration was in other generations not known to the sons of men, but this “mystery” was now made known and revealed through him (Eph. 3).

Second, I need to weigh in on something that I see happening here. This is something that few Catholics can be expected to be familiar with, but which pops up in fundamentalist circles on a regular basis.
There is a picture that is printed, over & over, in books abot premillenial/pretribulational prophecy. It is a picture of a man in the dress of biblical times, with his hand to his face, shading his eyes from the sun as he stands in a desert, looking out across a ravine in the sand at another dune the height of the one he is on.
Under/next to/otherwise accompanying this picture is an explantion of the pic. It says, that this is a prophet of the OT, looking out across time at the future, seeing the end of time, but with the Church Age hidden in the ravine…

This is actually a very accuate pictorial depiction of the O.T. prophets. Sometimes an artist will depict them as seeing from one mountain top to another. Always there’s an explanation to accompany the picture.

As gently as possible, let me say: Any interpretation of Scripture that requires a cartoon-- based on no Scripture at all-- That is an interpretation that is in deep, deep ( ahem!! censored!!!).

Artists have always depicted Biblical truths (stained glass windows are in many churches. Go to the Vatican and look up at the ceiling). And the one you refer to is in fact very Biblically based. It’s only the non-literalists, the Amillennialists, who disagree with it.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

This is a prophecy regarding the Messiah, not the Church.

Christ’s church is his body apophasis.

For example, Ephesians 5:23 say that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Later, in Ephesians 5:28-30, we likewise read that husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body.

Consequently, this passage alone seems to refute your distinction between ‘bride’ and 'wife that you noted before. The Church is already married to Christ right now. The bride analogy is rerering to an even greater expectation when ourselves and all of creation will be liberated from the bondage of sin and the Sons of God will be revealed.

Nonethless, again, in Colossians 1:24 we read…

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

There’s huge section on the body of Christ found here in 1 Corinthians 12:12-27.

In particular I would direct you too this…

The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

After Paul painstakingly explains this interactions within the body of Christ in detail, this passage later continues as follows…

But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

I could also quote sections from Colossians 1:18 which speak of Christ as the head of the body– the body which is the church.

I could also point toward 1 Corinthians 10:16 which asks…

Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ?

And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

I already noted how Melchizedek bringing out the bread and the wine prefigured the Communion which we participate in our Church age. A similar detail was found in the Levitical ordinances too-- and this too prefigures the Communion which we participate in our Church age. And yet you’ve just totally ignored these facts too.

I could also point toward Colossians 3:15 which says to let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.

How much more do you want me to quote?

Making the claim that this is a prophecy which solely applies to the Messiah and not the Church totally ignores the fact that Christ’s church is his body apophasis. You’re a part of it. I’m a part of it. We’re all part of it. And this can be demonstrated all throughout the Christian Scriptures too.

But you should already understand this.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Jesus referred to Himself as the “stone” which the builders rejected but becomes the “capstone.”

Here’s some links for further reference…

catholic.com/library/Peter_the_Rock.asp
catholic.com/library/Peter_and_the_Papacy.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801word.asp

The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied.

Likewise, in regards to Christ building his church, Ephesians 2:19-22 explains this very well…

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

There’s no denying that Jesus himself is the cornerstone. Nobody should deny that. And nobody has. But Jesus was building a temple without walls too, a Church made from people who believed in him.

And the Scriptures are clear that God’s household has been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. Peter, as the ‘prime minister’ of the Church, was placed by Jesus upon himself, part of the very foundation of the Church.

In the Old Testament, when King Solomon stated and then asked the following in 2 Chronicles 2:5-7…

The temple I am going to build will be great, because our God is greater than all other gods.

But who is able to build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him?

Who then am I to build a temple for him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before him?

…many have interpreted King Solomon’s observations and inquiry as a fore-shadowing of God building a temple without walls-- ie., the Church.

If you are a workman approved by God you need to understand that God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

This quote from 2 Timothy 2:19 can be traced back to Numbers 16:5 in the Septuagint by the way. The LORD will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him.

Nonetheless, since the Paul is using a verse back from the Old Testament to apply to the a solid foundation found in Christ during the New Testament, it stands to reason that these ‘buildings’ built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone, are but a continuum from the Old to the New. Pauls seems to view this inscription “The Lord knows those who are his” in such way-- and has no problems doing so either.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

But AGAIN, Mr. Ex Nihilo, this is all in reference to Israel’s rejection of her promised Messiah/King. It has absolutely no reference to the Church He would build AFTER the national rejection of Him, after He ascends bodily back to heaven.

Then why does Acts 3:21 say that he must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets?

I’ve already asked you this question but you seem to be ignoring it. I’ve actually asked you many questions in this thread, such as here and here for example.

Take a look at Isaiah 52:14-15 again.

Who is this one man so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness?

What effects on the nations of the world did the Hebrew Prophets perceive would result due to the suffering of this one man?

How does this one man marred beyond human likeness sprinkle many nations for example?

How could Abraham have seen Jesus’ day and be glad when he did not actually understand what Jesus’s day would bring?

Isn’t the passage “The righteous will live by faith” not from Habakkuk 2:4, likewise indicating something which has been known by the Hebrew Prophets from first to last?

As I asked above, how could Abraham have seen Jesus’ day and be glad when he did not actually understand what Jesus’s day would bring?

Wasn’t the gospel announced in advance to Abraham according to Galatians 3:8?

The mystery that you keep pointing out is not what you’re making it out to be.

The mystery that you keep pointing out is that, according to Ephesians 3:6, through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

And, in regards to the ancient prophets, 1 Peter 1:12 say that it was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.

Actually, you seem to be ignoring huge portions of the Scriptures in order to make the few passages that talk about a ‘mystery’ mean more than Paul himself actually intended.

In others words, the mystery doesn’t imply that the Hebrew Prophets had no idea that Gentiles would someday join them. All Jews believe the age of the Messiah will be due to a unity where all the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord-- even the Gentile nations.

The mystery implies that the Hebrew Prophets didn’t know exactly how the Messiah would accomplish this union between Jew and Gentile, but that God revealed enough information through the prophets so that later generations would recognize this magnificient event when it did happen.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Wow…

My head is still spinning from reading all 61 previous posts in this thread…

What a wonderful, edifying thread it is…

One concept which really jumped out for me was
the one concerning the Tower of Babal (Confusion) vs. the Baptism of the Spirit (Understanding God’s Mystery). The Holy Spirit actually showed me that directly about 11 years ago, exactly as you, Ex Nihilo, described it ! ! !

Blessings to you CactusJack. It is truly a remakable observation. Saint Augustine is the first one that I know of who commented on it-- though there could be others before him too.

Another place, in the OT, where the church is prefigured, is in the Song of Solomon. Of course it would have been impossible for those Isrealites to see the church in it, but the church is indeed prefigured. It can only be understood
after the coming of Christ, His resurrection (leaving the bride), and the coming of the Holy Spirit to enlighten this New Bride.

Right. That’s basically my point too.

The mystery doesn’t imply that the Hebrew Prophets had no idea that Gentiles would someday join them. All Jews believe the age of the Messiah will be due to a unity where all the earth is filled with the knowledge of the Lord-- even the Gentile nations.

The mystery implies that the Hebrew Prophets didn’t know exactly how the Messiah would accomplish this union between Jew and Gentile, but that God revealed enough information through the prophets so that later generations would recognize this magnificient event when it did happen.

St. Paul was indeed given the ministry of this great mystery, Christ and the Church. No man taught him these things, but the Holy Spirit of Christ taught him. And Paul identified himself as the one called out to be the apostle to the Gentiles… which is us ! ! !

Amen again. The Holy Spiirt was working in Paul to expound on all the mysterious ways in which God would accomplish this union between Jew and Gentile, just as the prophets of old foretold.

Paul was given the understanding and his prayer, in Ephesians, was that WE would be given the Spirit of understanding, so that we, too, would receive clarity on Christ and the Church, the One New Man!

Amen brother (or sister?)

The scriptures give the revelation of truth and the Holy Spirit then illumines the minds of those who read and hear these things. This certainly is a progressive illumination as history has proven out.

Many things are yet to come which we don’t understand but will as God deems necessary for us to go on in His way in order to fultill His divine purposes. I’m still grappling with many things in Revelation, but trusting God to reveal what I need to know and give me peace concerning the things which still mystify me.

Peace be unto you CactusJack. There’s proably a few things we don;t agree on (I’m not sure of your denomination), but this thread has been set apart in order to find the things we do agree upon.

Oh… Ex Nihilo… that shadow pic… That looks like the statue of David ??? !!!

Am I right??

Yes. The basic idea of fore-shadowing is that you can tell something about someone by shadow they cast before you actually see them face to face.

Blessings on you Ex Nihilo and apophasis…

Great dialogue!!!

CactusJack

Thanks again. And blessings for you and apophasis as well.