The Ordination Of Women Priests

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Women don’t want to be priests because of a “right”. It’s not about wanting to be the “same” or “equal” to men. They want to be priests because they have a natural calling to it, as men do.
I sure hope one day they will no longer be denied this important vocation, and I hope to live to see that day.
I’m not sure if this is ignorance or arrogance but when someone like Blessed JPII says the church doesn’t have the authority to ordain women I would respectfully and humbly accept that. Be assured that on your death bed it will be a good MAN in his priestly vestments anointing you.
 
Ever notice that truth has become, for many, something that is either a ‘personal decision’ (meaning one person could believe in Christianity, and that is ‘truth for them’, another could believe in paganism and that is 'truth for THEM" etc. When ‘everything is true’, NOTHING is true.). . .or else something that is decided on by ‘majority rule’ or ‘conscience’ or ‘SOCIETY’ (and never by a bunch of 'bigoted old men in a backwards corrupt organization like the Church). . .

We’re expected to acknowledge everybody as being right. . .EXCEPT the Church.

We are expected to believe that it is perfectly right and just for men to marry men, women to marry women, and for people to just ‘drop out’ of marriage in order to marry somebody else, then somebody else, then somebody else. . .

But let somebody say that they think it is perfectly right and just for one man to marry one woman, for life. . .

OMG. You would think these people had just worn a mink coat to a PETA convention. The screams, the “You’re trying to FORCE your morality on me”, the wails of how we don’t LOVE anybody wah wah wah.

I see this with the so-called women ordination people (and I’m a woman and of the generation- 56 next month) who are supposedly the ones who got the whole dang thing going and should be supportive. . .

They expect us to consider their claims as equally ‘just’ to male only priesthood. . .but do they themselves consider male only priesthood an equally just claim with theirs?

NOT HARDLY.

The hypocrisy is staggering but who are the ones called hypocrites?
On a recent episode of the TV show Glee, an actor playing a young gay man said the following: “The Church is against gays, women and science.” Whether or not the actor who said that believed it’s true, I don’t know. But those words were given to him to say by Leftist Liberal writers and it sums up the current problems we see here. The Church is just wrong.

There have been a few generations of protestors whose only mission was to protest something. In a parody of 1950s Beatniks (or Beats), Mad magazine, in the 1950s. created a fake magazine for them whose contents included “18 new things to protest.” Recently, I saw a post on another forum: “That’s legal now? Now I’ve got to find something else to protest.”

You should understand that a small group of people creates “new” false realities to give the illusion of things changing. Examples:

My mistake: My bad.
Prostitute: Sex worker, or porn star.
Stripper: Exotic Dancer
Diversity: We support gay (LGBT) behavior.
Inclusive: We support gay (LGBT) behavior.

Change those hairstyles, redesign cars, introduce stupid architecture, and you are now living in the future. Or stick a bunch of metal bits in your head like some ancient tribal groups and call it modern.

Do you know there are shoe and clothing companies that pay the ‘cool kids’ in school to wear their stuff? Change the look of the shoes and the clothes and you are instantly modern.

100% pure baloney.

Peace,
Ed
 
Ah, God’s voice came from the clouds, telling you personally that he did not desire women to be confessors because they are chatty, and men are preferred because they are forgetful. Sounds reasonable!
To mock people means you want to be irrational.
 
Not only do I fully understand the clarity and the logic of an exclusively male priesthood, the concept of female “priests” is a complete turn-off to me. It is something I am utterly unable to relate to.

Women are called to many legitimate vocations, and we are called to sainthood and to spiritual leadership and practical leadership positions. Women who state that they are ‘called’ to be Roman Catholic priests are listening to someone other than The Holy Spirit.

This is a different issue than the discipline of priestly celibacy, by the way.
 
Not only do I fully understand the clarity and the logic of an exclusively male priesthood, the concept of female “priests” is a complete turn-off to me. It is something I am utterly unable to relate to.
Me too. As a child of the 70s, I drank the feminist kool aid along with everyone else. Anything he can do, I can do better, etc. etc. etc.

But people ask me if I wouldn’t prefer a woman priest for Confession, or counseling. And the answer is a resounding NO. And I felt this way even before I studied and embraced the theological reasons.
 
I agree that the barrier to married priests is one that is within the power of the Church to lift, unlike the barrier to women “priests”. But I cringe a little when it is proposed as a possible solution to the perceived shortage of priests.

Your post, I think points out some of the reasons that it isn’t a simple as saying “ok, let’s ordain married men too”. If we are in a situation where our priests have to have secular jobs as well as thier parish duties, even with twice as many priests, we would have a worse shortage. Not to mention the problem of priests wives needing to work full time too.
and lets not forget, the worst thing that could ever happen to the priesthood and the Catholic Church would be Divorced priests.

And wouldn’t the secular media have a field day with that.
 
But people ask me if I wouldn’t prefer a woman priest for Confession, or counseling. And the answer is a resounding NO. And I felt this way even before I studied and embraced the theological reasons.
Ditto.
And thankfully there are the theological reasons. Because if I had to go to a female Cnfoessor, I would not go. That’s how strongly I feel about it. It feels completely wrong, deeply wrong. In my gut I know it’s wrong. In persona Christi does not mean in the person of a female. Priesthood is a function; it has nothing to do with spiritual equality or political equality.
 
God Bless the brave women in this topic, who are standing up for truth and not feminist ideology.
 
It’s because you’ve never done it before and it would be totally new and foreign to you. The first time someone went to a female doctor or female lawyer, they probably could “not relate” either and it took time.
But like all progress, you would adapt and then one day, embrace it as the usual, normal way.
No. You really don’t get this. In fact, you don’t get any of it – from the evidence of your postings.

(1) Jesus had many disciples. Many of them were women. There is a fair amount of evidence that they included many extremely-faithful, devoted, reliable women. (Not unlike today in the Church.) Many of them seemed to have been instrumental in various kinds of spiritual and practical leadership positions in the early Church – such as with liturgy (but never as priests). They could have even led prayer services – such as today, women – consecrated religious and others – often lead prayer services.

(2) Disciples are not apostles. There is no evidence of female apostleship. It was the apostles alone who were called to a specific level and kind of leadership. Had any of the female disciples been apostles, it would have been apparent in the NT.

(3) You don’t know me. I’ve never had a problem with female doctors. :rolleyes: Nor female secular anything else. Nor female movie directors. Nor female heads of State. My probate lawyer is female. I could go to others; I selected her in particular for her competency. Secular roles, not religious roles. My current internist is female; I could go to anyone else; I choose not to; she’s competent. My gut feeling about female “priests” comes from a spiritual sense, which in turn comes from a lifetime – not of custom – but of being formed within the sacraments and the life of the Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit – not by fad, not by fashion, not secular progress.
 
It’s because you’ve never done it before and it would be totally new and foreign to you. The first time someone went to a female doctor or female lawyer, they probably could “not relate” either and it took time.
But like all progress, you would adapt and then one day, embrace it as the usual, normal way.
Well, it’s not progress, that would imply forward movement. To “ordain” women would be a complete detoutr.

Your comparison isn’t logical, at least in my personal case. I am of an age where I have never known a profession that was closed to women. The concept of women in roles traditionally held by men is a non-issue for me. But I also understand the priesthood and the concept of a female priest would be as alien to me as a tiger teaching a calculus class. No amount of time would make that “normal”.
 
Byz…I have a list of the few quotes people usually cite as the basis that women cannot be ordained…I will look them up and post–I’d very much want to hear your thoughts. (Or perhaps, you know what they are? If so, please post for us).
I’ll stay tuned, as you say, but frankly the onus is not on me or anyone else to support the assertion you made. We’ll look forward to seeing whatever you can assemble in defense of your argument.
 
I would be interested to learn and understand the scripture which informs the Church’s position in this matter. Any guidance would be very much appreciated.
Hello,

As some have already noted, this is a closed issue for Catholics. Blessed Pope John Paul II spoke infallibly on this issue. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html
ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrespo.htm

However, there is nothing wrong at all with wanting to understand why the Church holds to this position. That is actually a perfectly reasonable thing to desire. With that in mind, I strongly recommend:

peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm

amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0940535726/theofficiapet-20

catholic.com/tracts/women-and-the-priesthood

Above are some wonderful references which you may wish to look into. The first is free audio by the always excellent Dr. Peter Kreeft. The second is a very well done book on the issue.

The last thing I would state is that Catholic must remember that Sacred Tradition and Magesterial Teaching is to be held as co-equal with Sacred Scripture. Dismissing an Apostolic teaching because it is not to be found explicitly in the Bible is not at all in keeping with the Catholic Tradition. Many issues discussed and Traditions carried on by the early Apostolic Church were in fact based on things which Christ said and did which are not to be found in the Bible, and also based on the Jewish tradition from which they came. The Christian Tradition of the priesthood is the fulfillment of the Jewish tradition of the priesthood. In addition, it must be remembered that the Church herself is the authoritative interpreter of the Bible, not individual Catholics.

Peace of Christ,
 
John 21:25 - But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.
But that’s just it…
He didn’t say it!
He didn’t “arrange” it.
Do you have evidence of this?
 
I appreciate FaithBuild’s comment, because I think there’s something radically driving these threads/discussions, which often some of the contributors are not consciously aware of. That is, the root of the “feminist ideology” to which he alludes is the belief that equates worth with external, titular status in every role, field, dimension of life, and in particular which idolizes power as equal with worth. That is a very different understanding of worth than how the Church understands worth, and how Jesus Himself preached and modeled the concept of worth.

What it also does is – ironically, to me, a woman – is to surrender to the secular male understanding of worth, which tends to translate to external, visible power. A real woman knows her worth, whether she has the “title” or not. She does not derive her confidence, her self-image from the male model of power/authority, nor does she limit her accomplishments to those which can fit into that model.

Thus, anyone who has spent considerable time as a patient in a hospital (say, prolonged procedures such as giving birth, having major surgery, etc.) knows who “runs” the hospital in terms of medical delivery. Yes, the doctors (male and female!) perform the surgeries, but the preps, the education, the medications, the patient’s detailed supervision and recovery, the comforting and calming of the patient – these all largely belong to the care of nurses, who happen to be overwhelmingly female. That is not lost on any observant patient – male or female. Worth? Power? Females are at least as essential, if not more so, to the running of every hospital in this country, and probably the world. Without them, hospitals would be impotent, as in power-less. Nurses choose to be nurses; they are not lesser doctors; they could choose to be doctors. In fact, the more senior Nurse Practitioners and Physicians’ Assistants are also overwhelmingly female, and these two groups perform many of the functions doctors could also perform but don’t need to, due to the competence of these three groups combined.

Let’s move to families. Most families are, in daily practical ways, matriarchal, even in very traditional families, even in most Catholic families. Functionally speaking, she is running the household, even if Dad is making most/all financial decisions, and even if he is not consulting her on those decisions. Most men will admit that they are “lost” without her presence; she is the “center” of the household. (“Power?”)

Let’s move to Church. Virtually every parish in this country is run by women. Ask any priest, on or off this forum. When I say “run,” I mean: catechesis, administration, lay ministries, and all the detail work that is essential and which includes everything except the administration of the sacraments. They actually make far more decisions than lots of people assume.

So is it important to worship titles? Jesus told us that all of us, men and women, should not worship title. In itself, title does not deliver power or worth, and that often includes in the secular world, by the way. Title may bring formal, public, secular recognition (truly or falsely), but if that’s what a woman is looking for, she is imitating the secular male mindset, which is a sell-out, as it is a masculinized and venal concept of ‘feminism.’
 
I appreciate FaithBuild’s comment, because I think there’s something radically driving these threads/discussions, which often some of the contributors are not consciously aware of. That is, the root of the “feminist ideology” to which he alludes is the belief that equates worth with external, titular status in every role, field, dimension of life, and in particular which idolizes power as equal with worth. That is a very different understanding of worth than how the Church understands worth, and how Jesus Himself preached and modeled the concept of worth.

What it also does is – ironically, to me, a woman – is to surrender to the secular male understanding of worth, which tends to translate to external, visible power. A real woman knows her worth, whether she has the “title” or not. She does not derive her confidence, her self-image from the male model of power/authority, nor does she limit her accomplishments to those which can fit into that model.

Thus, anyone who has spent considerable time as a patient in a hospital (say, prolonged procedures such as giving birth, having major surgery, etc.) knows who “runs” the hospital in terms of medical delivery. Yes, the doctors (male and female!) perform the surgeries, but the preps, the education, the medications, the patient’s detailed supervision and recovery, the comforting and calming of the patient – these all largely belong to the care of nurses, who happen to be overwhelmingly female. That is not lost on any observant patient – male or female. Worth? Power? Females are at least as essential, if not more so, to the running of every hospital in this country, and probably the world. Without them, hospitals would be impotent, as in power-less. Nurses choose to be nurses; they are not lesser doctors; they could choose to be doctors. In fact, the more senior Nurse Practitioners and Physicians’ Assistants are also overwhelmingly female, and these two groups perform many of the functions doctors could also perform but don’t need to, due to the competence of these three groups combined.

Let’s move to families. Most families are, in daily practical ways, matriarchal, even in very traditional families, even in most Catholic families. Functionally speaking, she is running the household, even if Dad is making most/all financial decisions, and even if he is not consulting her on those decisions. Most men will admit that they are “lost” without her presence; she is the “center” of the household. (“Power?”)

Let’s move to Church. Virtually every parish in this country is run by women. Ask any priest, on or off this forum. When I say “run,” I mean: catechesis, administration, lay ministries, and all the detail work that is essential and which includes everything except the administration of the sacraments. They actually make far more decisions than lots of people assume.

So is it important to worship titles? Jesus told us that all of us, men and women, should not worship title. In itself, title does not deliver power or worth, and that often includes in the secular world, by the way. Title may bring formal, public, secular recognition (truly or falsely), but if that’s what a woman is looking for, she is imitating the secular male mindset, which is a sell-out, as it is a masculinized and venal concept of ‘feminism.’
All of you posts here are extremely well thought out and conveyed with grace. Thank you.
 
What a sweet person you are, fastenatingguy with a cute play on words. 🙂
 
I appreciate FaithBuild’s comment, because I think there’s something radically driving these threads/discussions, which often some of the contributors are not consciously aware of. That is, the root of the “feminist ideology” to which he alludes is the belief that equates worth with external, titular status in every role, field, dimension of life, and in particular which idolizes power as equal with worth. That is a very different understanding of worth than how the Church understands worth, and how Jesus Himself preached and modeled the concept of worth.

What it also does is – ironically, to me, a woman – is to surrender to the secular male understanding of worth, which tends to translate to external, visible power. A real woman knows her worth, whether she has the “title” or not. She does not derive her confidence, her self-image from the male model of power/authority, nor does she limit her accomplishments to those which can fit into that model.

Thus, anyone who has spent considerable time as a patient in a hospital (say, prolonged procedures such as giving birth, having major surgery, etc.) knows who “runs” the hospital in terms of medical delivery. Yes, the doctors (male and female!) perform the surgeries, but the preps, the education, the medications, the patient’s detailed supervision and recovery, the comforting and calming of the patient – these all largely belong to the care of nurses, who happen to be overwhelmingly female. That is not lost on any observant patient – male or female. Worth? Power? Females are at least as essential, if not more so, to the running of every hospital in this country, and probably the world. Without them, hospitals would be impotent, as in power-less. Nurses choose to be nurses; they are not lesser doctors; they could choose to be doctors. In fact, the more senior Nurse Practitioners and Physicians’ Assistants are also overwhelmingly female, and these two groups perform many of the functions doctors could also perform but don’t need to, due to the competence of these three groups combined.

Let’s move to families. Most families are, in daily practical ways, matriarchal, even in very traditional families, even in most Catholic families. Functionally speaking, she is running the household, even if Dad is making most/all financial decisions, and even if he is not consulting her on those decisions. Most men will admit that they are “lost” without her presence; she is the “center” of the household. (“Power?”)

Let’s move to Church. Virtually every parish in this country is run by women. Ask any priest, on or off this forum. When I say “run,” I mean: catechesis, administration, lay ministries, and all the detail work that is essential and which includes everything except the administration of the sacraments. They actually make far more decisions than lots of people assume.

So is it important to worship titles? Jesus told us that all of us, men and women, should not worship title. In itself, title does not deliver power or worth, and that often includes in the secular world, by the way. Title may bring formal, public, secular recognition (truly or falsely), but if that’s what a woman is looking for, she is imitating the secular male mindset, which is a sell-out, as it is a masculinized and venal concept of ‘feminism.’
I would also add that women (primarily) run virtually every academic department in the university system. The Chair, whether male or female, would be lost without their administrative assistant, and so would the faculty and students.
 
What am I, a potted plant here? There is no “Sin of Adam & Eve.” Men only can atone for the “Sin of Adam.” To ordain a woman a priestess is to blame her for Original Sin, called the “Sin of Adam” not the “Sin of Adam & Eve.”

You don’t even know what the priesthood is! It is carrying the sin-guilt, the opprobrium, the bringing of “sin and death” into the world by Adam, the first man. It’s insulting to blame woman, God’s gift, for the “Sin of Adam” as Adam himself tried to do.

Are you trying to tell me that if I hopped from the stands onto the field and made that fly ball catch or grabbed the football and made a touchdown you would uphold my fan rights to usurp the role of a team member just because I could physically lift a ball?

C’mon. Wake up. This is the St. Sebastian’s Angels homosexual priests’ website strategy for OK’ing openly practicing homosexuals as priests. First married priests, then women priests, then openly homosexual priests.

Priestesses do tie in nicely with the Peter Pan syndrome of adult male infantilism which may be a result of lowered testosterone levels, this generation of males being 1/2 that of their grandfathers.

Anybody want to speak to any of that? Anyone? Bueller?

catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=20666
 
I want to add one more thing about “power.”

I have yet to meet any woman who states that she aspires to ordination, or that she supports those who do aspire, who understands what is entailed in the Catholic priesthood. To a person, each woman I have met (and I have met several) have a highly distorted and idealized impression of the grit and responsibility involved in the ministerial priesthood, whether that means the diocesan (sometimes called “secular”) priesthood, or the consecrated (religious order) priesthood. If you ask these women, they limit their interest in priesthood to one of two tracks:

(1) administration of the sacraments: confecting the Eucharist, especially; saying Mass.
My goodness, they’ve supposedly yearned for this their whole lives, have felt deprived
and oppressed for being denied the “right” (or privilege) to consecrate bread & wine,
And apparently identify that as the single most important role of the priest.
Code:
   And it is.  The Eucharist is “the source and summit” of the ministerial priesthood.  
   Except that it’s a tiny portion of how priests spend their time.  I have found it so very
   sad & even embarrassing to watch on video these faux “ordinations” of women, 
   and hearing/reading their comments before & after these events.  They’re like children
   enchanted with the external pomp & circumstance of ritual.  In children it is charming
   and expected.  In adults it is not attractive and does not earn respect.
(2) ascent to (again) power. If one is not a priest, one will never become Pope. Except
that a very tiny percentage of priests will ever become Pope. In fact, not even a
significant percentage will become Monsignor, Bishop, or Cardinal. And few will
ever become members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. More
importantly, whether a diocesan or Religious priest, ambition is not an attractive
trait in a priest of any kind and is to be avoided and counseled against. Any man
who becomes a priest in the private hope to become a Pope (or even have a position
of leadership responsibility in Rome) is seriously deluded, first of all, and probably
ill-suited to the priesthood, second of all. (Does not have a genuine vocation.)

Here’s what Vocation is about, for both men and women: SERVICE. It’s about loss of self, forgetfulness of ambition, humility, growth in the knowledge of personal sinfulness and an eager desire to communicate that knowledge and the benefit of humble surrender to God which characterizes the Christian journey. The Christian journey is not about getting to the Vatican a.s.a.p. It’s about getting to Heaven, and sharing the divine life (through grace) now, on earth, so that Heaven is as immediate as possible.

The typical priest has very little power, in any “political” or practical sense. He has a lot of responsibility, very little pay, precious little free time & privacy, and is a recipient of more negativity, complaining, public exposure, and disappointment than most lay people recognize. He has typically very little impact on juridical decisions in the larger Church, whether locally/regionally, or in Rome. Like the lay Catholic, his role is to obey his bishop, whether or not he likes those directives or likes the person of the bishop. His other role is to serve his flock, no matter how negative & ungrateful that flock often is. There’s a priest who has appeared on EWTN TV. His name is Fr. Mark Riccardo or something like that. He says that among themselves, priests describe themselves as “garbage men,” because of all the dumping (in & out of the confessional) which they must take.

In the secular definition of “recognition,” if he’s “lucky,” he may gain some “fame” (briefly, probably) if he appears as a guest or host on a TV or radio show, or if he publishes a book, but that fame also brings with it exposure to criticism and the potential for notoriety rather than admiration.

Against the above backdrop is the ignorant idealization and glamorization of the priesthood which every female aspirant to ordination seems to have. Their “training” has been academic (largely). Very few of them have spent time in the trenches (parishes), and they appear not to be very well acquainted with priests as people. Priesthood is a head-trip to them. And because they have no legitimacy, they are further protected from the real world of parish life after their faux ordinations. If they form congregations (some do try to), the tiny group in attendance consists of other people who are thoroughly supportive of their “priesthoods,” unlike what any parish priest encounters: a congregation which is “stuck” with him, which doesn’t choose to have him (necessarily), and which represents a broad cross-section, usually, of a community or region: people who support him, people who oppose him, people who are out to get rid of him, people who are very self-centered, people who never think to thank him, etc., and people who have so much suffering in their lives that they are preoccupied with their own needs.

Naturally that does not mean, that – as with every giving profession – there isn’t a lot of personal gratification in the priesthood as well. Certainly that can be, and hopefully usually is! But there is not “more” gratification, by nature of the occupation and role, than other giving occupations and roles, particularly when balanced out with negative aspects of the priesthood. Priesthood is both a vocation and a career. And like all careers, it presents ups and downs, triumphs and failures, epiphanies both good and bad, and is often accompanied by doubt (regarding Vocation, even regarding The Faith!) It’s not about a costume or a ceremony. It’s about a life of “blind” self-service in which your location and ministry is mostly chosen for you, not by you.

Confecting the Eucharist does not bring a priest (by that fact alone) “closer to God.” It gives him an awesome and singular power, but the fruit of that power resides in all of us: to be properly disposed & open to receive that power when we receive Eucharist worthily & with openness to those graces. There is no special ‘ticket to Heaven’ in the ministerial priesthood. He will face his Particular Judgment as we all will. His ability to confect the Eucharist and hear confessions merely humbles him – if he has any spirituality within him whatsoever – to realize how unworthy he is to perform such a privilege. He knows he is not ‘worthy’ to do either.
 
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