The organisation behind the Idol (Pachamama) disposal

[Emeraldlady]

In the absence of magisterial determination you would have to make a case, based upon Scripture and Tradition, and authoritative Church teaching, that the display of pagan idols in sacred churches is permissible.

Have you done that?

No. In the absence of a magisterial determination, we have patience and trust and pray. We do not go out “in the name of God” and destroy. We do not without a single bit of authority to do so declare, charge or insinuate that Pope Francis and the hierarchy are heretical. The question was asked about the figures and the Pope responded that they were not regarded with idolatrous intent. It’s over.

 

[HarryStotle]

The part of the laity in defeating that heresy was preciously in their assent to the teaching of officially recognised Pope Liberius and his faithful Priests and Bishops. The dissenters followed a phoney unduly installed ‘authority’ in Felix II.

Again another example of what the part of the laity is our Church today. Nothing can be gained by dissent.

You keep trying to sneak in the idea of the authority of the Pope (officially recognized) as if all teaching authority in the Church rests upon the Pope and Bishops INDEPENDENT of Scripture and Tradition. That is untrue.

The Pope and Bishops cannot teach what is contrary to the received teaching of the Church, i.e., received from God through Scripture, Revelation and Tradition. The Pope and Bishops are not free to revise Church teaching just because they feel like it or want to. They do not have that authority. If they did, we may as well discard Scripture, Revelation and Tradition and rely completely on the current Pope to authorize whatever he is, ostensibly, moved by the Holy Spirit to rule upon.

This isn’t Protestant as in the “personal inspiration” of individuals, and it isn’t Catholic since it depends upon the “personal inspiration” of the Pope and Bishops – a smaller cohort of inspired.

This is not in accordance with actual Church doctrine which makes Scripture and Tradition the infallible grounds for the teaching authority of the Pope and Bishops. It is not the Pope and Bishops over and above Scripture and Tradition, since that completely nullifies the grounds for the authority of the Pope, by moving that authority entirely to the current Pope and current crop of Bishops without any grounds in Revelation or Tradition, but merely in their personal level of inspiration.

 

[HarryStotle]

The question was asked about the figures and the Pope responded that they were not regarded with idolatrous intent. It’s over.

I suppose the Pope could regard it that way, and you would agree.

However as the current Pastor and Shepherd of the Church Universal, I would assume the Pope is responsible for the souls of the faithful and not ignore the issue.

Many of the faithful were caused scandal and have had their faith in the Pope and his decisions severely tried. He has a duty to address that and not merely wave it off.

Can. 1211 Sacred places are desecrated by acts done in them which are gravely injurious and give scandal to the faithful when, in the judgement of the local Ordinary, these acts are so serious and so contrary to the sacred character of the place that worship may not be held there until the harm is repaired by means of the penitential rite which is prescribed in the liturgical books.

You might also just attempt to discredit and dismiss all those who have been scandalized by the event, but that certainly doesn’t show regard for those individuals as brothers and sisters in Christ.

What if the early Christians under severe persecution by Roman emperors had simply pooh-poohed the burning of incense to idols or the allowing of pagan idols into Christian Churches? Why did the early martyrs have to go through persecution and death in opposition to the worship of idols when we in the modern Church simply allow and promote it?

You see no problem there?

 

[Aquinas11]

Bishop Schneider echoed these great points in recent interview w Michael Matt of Remnant

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

The part of the laity in defeating that heresy was preciously in their assent to the teaching of officially recognised Pope Liberius and his faithful Priests and Bishops. The dissenters followed a phoney unduly installed ‘authority’ in Felix II.

Again another example of what the part of the laity is our Church today. Nothing can be gained by dissent.

You keep trying to sneak in the idea of the authority of the Pope (officially recognized) as if all teaching authority in the Church rests upon the Pope and Bishops INDEPENDENT of Scripture and Tradition. That is untrue.

May I suggest that that may be a case of projection. My first concept of Church is as the Rock (Peter), ordained by Christ. A parent to us whose DNA is an unbroken lineage nourished successively by the same inspired Word. I’ve never had any other concept of Church than springing from and rooted deep in Scripture. But what I see in your argument is an attempt to insert perferations between the Rock and Scripture and Tradition so that if you find it necessary, you can detach one from the other.

The Pope and Bishops cannot teach what is contrary to the received teaching of the Church, i.e., received from God through Scripture, Revelation and Tradition. The Pope and Bishops are not free to revise Church teaching just because they feel like it or want to. They do not have that authority. If they did, we may as well discard Scripture, Revelation and Tradition and rely completely on the current Pope to authorize whatever he is, ostensibly, moved by the Holy Spirit to rule upon.

Again, this removes any meaningful role of the Pope to open the way for an alternative interpretation if you don’t agree with his. This cannot be a fruitful way to live as a Catholic.

This isn’t Protestant as in the “personal inspiration” of individuals, and it isn’t Catholic since it depends upon the “personal inspiration” of the Pope and Bishops – a smaller cohort of inspired.

What is your interpretation of why Jesus made such a statement that Peter was ‘the rock’? Protestants say it’s just a symbolic thing.

 

[Emeraldlady]

This is not in accordance with actual Church doctrine which makes Scripture and Tradition the infallible grounds for the teaching authority of the Pope and Bishops. It is not the Pope and Bishops over and above Scripture and Tradition, since that completely nullifies the grounds for the authority of the Pope, by moving that authority entirely to the current Pope and current crop of Bishops without any grounds in Revelation or Tradition, but merely in their personal level of inspiration.

So you are basically saying that the ‘Pope and current crop of Bishops’ don’t have any special capacity to bind and loose, but that all that has been done before (at the Council of Trent presumably) and now they are just symbolic figures?

That is why I always get the sense of Protestant thought in the traditionalists. Except the Protestants go back earlier than Trent and cut off a living Magisterium at the Apostles.

 

[vz71]

. So stealing’s OK in this case?

I am really surprised at how often people keep going back to this.
It has been refuted many times now, but for some reason people just don’t listen.

 

[graciew]

Disagree. Doesn’t mean not listening.
In other words**, I** would confess it without self justification .
Different , not deaf.

 

[HarryStotle]

Again, this removes any meaningful role of the Pope to open the way for an alternative interpretation if you don’t agree with his. This cannot be a fruitful way to live as a Catholic.

Nope. The “perforations” are being caused by definite actions of the Pope who seems to be acting contrary to the settled Tradition of the Church.

How do you reconcile the display of idols in a Church and the public display of worship of idols at the Vatican, with the long standing opposition to idols in Tradition and Scripture?

That is a perforation, not of my imagining, but from current events. It needs to be addressed and explained.

A modern Catholic faced with a decision to compromise his/her faith now has a precedent (the admissibility of idol worship) to follow which is quite at odds with the actions of martyrs in the Church who went to their deaths resisting such worship.

Worship of idols was terrible then, but just fine now? How is that “springing from and deeply rooted” in Scripture or “an unbroken lineage,” from Tradition?

How is a “faithful Catholic” to understand the complete reversal?

Which teaching is a Catholic to be “faithful” to?

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

This is not in accordance with actual Church doctrine which makes Scripture and Tradition the infallible grounds for the teaching authority of the Pope and Bishops. It is not the Pope and Bishops over and above Scripture and Tradition, since that completely nullifies the grounds for the authority of the Pope, by moving that authority entirely to the current Pope and current crop of Bishops without any grounds in Revelation or Tradition, but merely in their personal level of inspiration.

So you are basically saying that the ‘Pope and current crop of Bishops’ don’t have any special capacity to bind and loose, but that all that has been done before (at the Council of Trent presumably) and now they are just symbolic figures?

Nope. They have a special capacity to bind and loose the treasures of the Church – when to apply when to withhold those treasures. They are not free to completely re-write the “Sacred deposit” of the faith the depositum fidei.

Nor do they have the authority to reinterpret Revelation or established Church teaching in a manner that is completely at odds with the way it has been interpreted for 2000 years. They must demonstrate continuity and use the deposit of faith in a way that demonstrates their interpretation in light of new circumstances to comport with and be consistent with the way it has been interpreted in the past.

The interpretation must be consistent, or the reinterpretation will serve to implicitly undermine the authority of past Church teaching and, as a result, current Church teaching. This requires great care.

 

[graciew]

Except that they were the photos of the religious killed in Amazonia , for protecting and evangelizing them , not any Thor.
There are other videos where one can hear in Portuguese their songs and lyrics, and how a lady for example explains in what can be perceived as evangelizing , accompanying and explaining.
They are learning , as children.
This concept of appreciation of the earth of the land, isn’t related to the Pachamama where people open a hole in the earth and pour food and stuff into it.
I don’t know how else nor what else to say to convey the concept of mother earth or la pachamama , not in capital letters and not belonging in Amazonia though this appreciation or concept of love for the earth can be perceived.
And they make the sign of the cross.

 

[HarryStotle]

Except that they were the photos of the religious killed in Amazonia , for protecting and evangelizing them , not any Thor.
There are other videos where one can hear in Portuguese their songs and lyrics, and how a lady for example explains in what can be perceived as evangelizing , accompanying and explaining.
They are learning , as children.
This concept of appreciation of the earth of the land, isn’t related to the Pachamama where people open a hole in the earth and pour food and stuff into it.
I don’t know how else nor what else to say to convey the concept of mother earth or la pachamama , not in capital letters and not belonging in Amazonia though this appreciation or concept of love for the earth can be perceived.

Missio, the pastoral agency of the Italian Episcopal Conference, published a prayer to Pachamama in an April 2019 publication devoted to the Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for the Pan-Amazon Region.

The prayer, described as a “prayer to Mother Earth of the Inca peoples,” reads:

Pachamama of these places, drink and eat this offering at will, so that this earth may be fruitful. Pachamama, good Mother, be favorable! Be favorable! Make that the oxen walk well, and that they not become tired. Make that the seed sprout well, that nothing bad may happen to it, that the cold may not destroy it, that it produce good food. We ask this from you: give us everything. Be favorable! Be favorable!

Source: Italian bishops’ agency published prayer to Pachamama | News Headlines | Catholic Culture

This is prayer and offering of food and drink to Pachamama published by Italian Bishops in April 2019 in conjunction with the Synod.

 

[graciew]

I saw this post, Harry, but I don t know the connection.These people live in Amazonia…so I couldn t find out how this in Missio Italy,relates to them
Nor had time to deepen in this particular research .
I just don t know.

 

[Jen7]

This is prayer and offering to Pachamama published by Italian Bishops in April 2019.

Seriously?!! The bishops??

Come, Lord Jesus!!

 

[HarryStotle]

I saw this post, Harry, but I don t know the connection.These people live in Amazonia…so I couldn t find out how this in Missio Italy,relates to them
Nor had time to deepen in this particular research .
I just don t know.

Father Mitch Pacwa addresses the subject on EWTN Scripture and Tradition (timestamped to begin at proper segment).

 

[GiftofMercy]

Thank you Father Mitch Pacwa for stating it is a major scandal. It is a major scandal. As big a scandal for many as others.

 

[graciew]

Thank you.
Yes, he is speaking of Peru. Clearly Andean and also related to the northwestern provinces and Bolivia.
Now the people in this meeting speak Portuguese…not Spanish…
They don t belong in this area.
So… if in a certain region which is likely and possible, people still deal with Pachamama, which I do not deny nor have grounds to, it isn t nor has to be the case if the people visiting the Vatican.
That is what seems to be all over. It is as if we were all the same, all the regions the same , all the people the same . But these are specific visitors .
Anyway,I am tired now, Harry,But thank you for sharing nicely…
At some point , Mary will do a much better job than me and I will leave it Her hands.

 

[HarryStotle]

Thank you.
Yes, he is speaking of Peru. Clearly Andean and also related to the northwestern provinces and Bolivia.
Now the people in this meeting speak Portuguese…not Spanish…
They don t belong in this area.
So… if in a certain region which is likely and possible, people still deal with Pachamama, which I do not deny nor have grounds to, it isn t nor has to be the case if the people visiting the Vatican.
That is what seems to be all over. It is as if we were all the same, all the regions the same , all the people the same . But these are specific visitors .
Anyway,I am tired now, Harry,But thank you for sharing nicely…
At some point , Mary will do a much better job than me and I will leave it Her hands.

I take all your points as made in good faith trying to be as fair and just with all involved. I sincerely hope and pray that you sleep in peace.

 

[Dovekin]

Dovekin:

Please note, I have nothing against the use of pagan symbols for Christian worship. I am just observing that people who do object to pagan symbols probably should be protesting against ad orientam worship.

Only if the assumption is accepted that the source of “ad orientam” is from paganism rather than from within authentic Judaism –> Christianity.

The point being that east and west have their own significance in Judaism and Catholicism that does not, in any way, reduce to pagan influence.

That is in no way assumed in what I wrote. I did not say pagan “rather than” Judaism. I quoted a passage about how a “cosmic symbol expresses the universality of God…” The rising sun, the east, has a universal dimension that is recognized in every nation.

The issue is whether the Pachamama also is a cosmic symbol of that type or if it is a solely pagan image. Does Judaism respect “the mother of all the living”? Is fertility important to the religion of the Patriarchs who were promised their descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky? Does birth have an important role in a religion with miraculous births?

If people are committed to attacking what looks like idolatry, they should attack ad orientem because it looks like idolatry. It looks like idolatrous worship of the rising sun as much as bowing to the Pachamama does.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

I’m confused because none of us posting here works for CAF. I sure don’t.

Neither do I.

To be honest I’m not entirely sure how CAF even works or who is genuinely behind it or who pays for it. But in view of the professionalism of the setup and the huge quantity of resources provided, I don’t believe somebody is hooking this together in their free time but that professionals are in some way making a living off it.

There is nothing wrong with that mind you. Priests make money too. And book authors have every right to promote their books and make money with them. If we disagree with what the books say, we should debunk the content, not the person.