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Hiskid1973
Guest
Well if it was done in a more clearer way this discussion would be mute…Especially in the light of current conditions…Can the ccc be amended or upgrade the unclear items ?
The plan of salvation includes Muslims? Is Allah the same God as Yaweah?
- Status
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Carlan
Guest
No need to Hiskid!
For me the quote from Rueben below, is common sense. Peace, in the New Year to all here,
CarlanThe ultimate aim of the Church would be to have all people as brothers and sisters in the Lord. At the moment we can only do that in the real sense of the faith among Catholics and those in communion with Rome. Then we have other Christians where we share the same belief in the Trinity but have differences in going about it. Then the Muslims. Then other monotheistic religions, other religions and finally the atheists.
A meaningful brother and the sisterhood in Christ can only be achieved when all believe in the same faith. The Council of Vatican Two saw the fractured reality of people of different faith. Even though the ultimate aim is to form a One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for all mankind, she is aware of the present reality. The Church fathers therefore saw the need for renewed evangelization and ecumenism until all shall be one or when Christ is proclaimed to all.
The additions in the CCC reflect this new reality and spells out its teaching accordingly. As far as Islam is concerned, it teaches Catholics to see Muslims as people who believe in a Creator God and therefore they are not totally alien to them. Catholics should see them from the lens of this common ground and hope one day we can become as true brothers and sisters in the Lord.
A few years back as I was participating in a discussion in this Forum about whether Muslims worship the same God as us and my answer was emphatically no. Islamic Allah sickens me and I thought the CCC has it all wrong. Funny though it’s through discussing this topic here that I began to see the wisdom of the CCC and now instead of repulsing me, it makes my faith in the CCC even stronger. We need to see the Muslims as people who genuinely seeking to worship the creator and that their intention is good. Our part would be to inform them where they err about this One God and to witness Christ to them as the true Savior for all. Never mind about the atrocity that they committed against us. CCC 841 has put us in a right direction and we should start from there.
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Hiskid1973
Guest
Hi Carlan God Bless…You see that , but others don’t…Why not amend it to contain what you shared…Everyone who is not “in Christ” is a mission field…People need to know the truth about the god they follow…
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Reuben_J
Guest
Well, when the CCC came out a couple of decades back, many of us are caught by surprise. Though we eagerly anticipated the new version of the CCC, many Catholics were not in the picture as to how this CCC actually came about except for those who were close to the Vatican. I have the feeling that we take the CCC for granted and those responsible for it saw no problem in Catholics understanding it since it actually clarifies things and should make the understanding easier. Frankly, Catholics really need to study the CCC and to seek clarification and understanding of its content. This perhaps is a drawback of the CCC and probably this escape the attention of those who were responsible in compiling it. Personally I have gone through the CCC with someone who is an expert in it and I found out that there is a wealth of wisdom in it which would be lost had someone do not expound it for us.
All the statements in the CCC are derived from certain background and traditions and in principle there is nothing new. The problem is we lack the knowledge of these backgrounds and that causes us to misunderstand the teaching in the CCC, not that the CCC is wrong or weird.
As for the question whether it can be amended or not, frankly I don’t know. Clause like 841 is self-explained. What is needed probably is a commentary on it and not new insertion of statement. We know that the CCC can be dynamic in certain areas. Things or reality that did not exist two thousand years ago can be a reality that Christians have to deal with today; and for that they need to have guidance and teaching from the Church.
God bless.
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Hiskid1973
Guest
Thank You Bro Reuben…Blessings in Christ to you also. May the Lord overtake you with His blessings in this new year…That is an excellent idea…You should start working on one to be published…I have seen ccc statements with scripture that even I as a non catholic would agree with…I live in a large Italian catholic area and I wonder sometimes if they even read/follow the ccc like the non catholic christians reading and applying the scriptures…We tend to emulate what we adore and it shows in all our word,deed, thoughts, attitudes and actions…
I just saw Fox news story on MIseriacordia (sp) a Catholic ministry to the mentally handicapped. I have a special needs son that lives in a group home so I thought it pretty cool…
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dzheremi
Guest
Keep in mind, Reuben, I wrote that in response to your own argument, which was basically that Islam exists in the world so it should be addressed because that section of the Catechism is about our relationship with other religions that exist in the world.
See, this is BS to me. Why does Islam form some sort of special category that Catholics have to be particularly fond of/nice to/respectful towards/whatever? It’s not like it’s the only other monotheistic religion in the world, and it’s not like it doesn’t make a bunch of crazy BS claims about Jesus Christ that would be vociferously and unabashedly opposed if a self-proclaimed Christian religion (say, Mormonism, which also denies the Only Begotten and reviles the holy cross) made them, so why treat Islam so gingerly, even positively? What makes Islam any better or full of “true believers” than Mormonism? It’s all the same anti-Christ poison, and yet Catholics are supposed to feel some kind of special connection Islam. Why is that?
Maybe not changed, but I would say definitely weakened. Diluted.
For what feels like the millionth time in this thread: You can talk to Muslims without lying to them or treating them with kid gloves. You don’t need to coddle them or cuddle up to them. That sort of servile behavior does nothing good.
I’m sorry to have to say it this way because it seems like it’s awfully removed from the mindset I embraced when I was Catholic, but I think that if you really do believe that Islam’s Allah is the same God as the Holy Trinity (perhaps viewed in a different/imperfect way, as Catholicism apparently advances) then you don’t in fact have the same belief in the Holy Trinity as other Christians do. When I pray to God I say “In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the One God”, which is heresy to a Muslim. There really isn’t any middle ground here. You either deny the belief that the Muslim says he holds or you pervert your own faith in a bewildering and misguided effort to ignore the clear differences between religions (apparently in belief that somehow this helps “engage” or convert Muslims). I don’t understand why the Catholic Church would advise its members to do either of these things, but that’s what it’s doing.
And these fathers of Vatican II never foresaw the side-effect that by trying to appeal to literally everybody in the world they would permanently alienate those Christians and others who do not see doctrine as malleable or a tool to be manipulated for the benefit of the intended audience? (“We worship the same God” to Muslims; “You are our big brothers” to Jews, etc.)
Because that is the reality of what has happened. You will no doubt see at least parts of this post as the rantings of an angry ex-Catholic, but I tell you this: I am not so much angry as I am shocked and scandalized at the depths to which my once-beloved Catholic Church has truly sunk. Whereas Rome was once orthodox and declared a clear message of salvation to the world, through successive centuries of unnecessary refinement and consolidation what the world is left with is not only a Church that is unrecognizable to the ancient faith, but also must be unrecognizable to its own faith of 50, 75, or 100 years ago. I did not want to leave Catholicism. I was not always happy, but I did think I had found the true faith. But, in response to crises of theology, praxis, and other matters essential to the Christian faith, I found the Church to be less than serious or concerned about the very faith that it claims to possess. There are indeed a great many serious and potentially-orthodox individuals within the Roman communion, but what can be done for them, yolked as they are to an inherently un-orthodox and faith-trivializing institution? They must leave. There is no place for the Trisagion to co-exist theologically with the Shahada. They make inherently exclusive claims. So too there is no place for orthodoxy and seriousness to coexist with heterodoxy and false ecumenism.
I think I’m pretty much done with this topic. Good luck, Gurney and other Catholics who have trouble with the Catechism. While I do foresee it changing in some ways, I don’t think the attitude that has seen fit to put declarative statements like CCC 841 in it will.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Islam is not the only religion mentioned there. They mention Judaism, that’s it. So going by your logic, that the catechism is trying to charitably reach out and provide some compliments to non-Catholic/non-Christian groups in order to spark dialogue as well as give the reader some appreciation for people to walk with them, why not mention Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikkhism, Pagans, Wicca and all the other people who we need to mission to as Catholics? If it’s an outreach and charity section, why only mention TWO groups: Islam and Judaism? And notice the language given to an almost primacy of respect here: in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims and saying something like and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day this really takes some punch out of the Great Commission. They’re said to already be worshipping “with us” the one, True God. Or at the very best it makes it sound like these folks are so close to us that they’re just a stone’s throw away from being Christians, which is equally bad. How does this help me to “relate to the people around me?”
Your last part about formerly feeling sickened about Islam and now having more faith than ever in the CCC and a feeling of more common ground and seeing a desire in Muslims to want to worship the one true God, I was thinking about that. I think Hindus truly want to know the One, True God when they seek the Unknowable Brahman. I think Nirvana, though being a state of disattachment to the atman (self) is a type of desire to know the unknowable and understand the afterlife and purpose for being here. I think Mormons, JW’s, just about every religion we can think of has such a desire in some way or another. Islam by “claiming” to worship the God of Abraham through a cracked and fuzzy lens is no better or worse than these others. You point out that it would be unfair to criticize the CCC as only mentioning Islam and not the others. By name, the others aren’t even mentioned.
I have no problem with the catechism trying to be charitable. If they want to say that Islam and Judaism both are monotheistic faiths that seek God in their own way, fine. But to say they worship the exact same God “with us” and “first amongst whom” and all that, it’s disturbing and falls into that kissing the Koran discomfort that is a sign of folks TOO willing to be ecumenical to the point of speaking dangerously.
The Church correctly says The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life This is fine by me really. But why is Islam elevated in the previous paragraph?
Your last part about formerly feeling sickened about Islam and now having more faith than ever in the CCC and a feeling of more common ground and seeing a desire in Muslims to want to worship the one true God, I was thinking about that. I think Hindus truly want to know the One, True God when they seek the Unknowable Brahman. I think Nirvana, though being a state of disattachment to the atman (self) is a type of desire to know the unknowable and understand the afterlife and purpose for being here. I think Mormons, JW’s, just about every religion we can think of has such a desire in some way or another. Islam by “claiming” to worship the God of Abraham through a cracked and fuzzy lens is no better or worse than these others. You point out that it would be unfair to criticize the CCC as only mentioning Islam and not the others. By name, the others aren’t even mentioned.
I have no problem with the catechism trying to be charitable. If they want to say that Islam and Judaism both are monotheistic faiths that seek God in their own way, fine. But to say they worship the exact same God “with us” and “first amongst whom” and all that, it’s disturbing and falls into that kissing the Koran discomfort that is a sign of folks TOO willing to be ecumenical to the point of speaking dangerously.
The Church correctly says The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life This is fine by me really. But why is Islam elevated in the previous paragraph?
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Thanks, Jeremy. I know the catechism’s language here is not ideal. I’m no fan of the wording at all. I don’t even like the sentiment. But I would encourage you not to close the door on Catholicism. You seem headed toward the East and I can appreciate that but I’d consider Catholicism still and keep your heart and mind open to it. Despite my walk in the wilderness and struggles, I have kept my heart open to the Catholic Church. I could never go East because I disagree too much with their views on the Atonement, Original Sin, the filioque, and using levened bread, etc. I think the Catholic Church is more truly catholic in the universal sense, the Chair of Peter is important, and if anyone can re-Christianize Europe and the West, it’s the Holy Father. CCC 841 is a desire to reach out and spread Christianity, it’s just poorly-worded IMHO. Trying to find common ground is the attempt, I think, it just falls flat for some of us. Not the Church’s best moment. But I would say, don’t give up on the Church just yet. Pray hard, read hard, and may God guide you with the Holy Spirit wherever you may land. God bless, friend.
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John_Paul_Jones
Guest
I have to argue in this case it is “weird,” I think it 841 creates more questions than answers so I would say it isn’t self-explanatory. It mentions muslims but it doesn’t address islam, muhammed, allah nor the koran, why not? Could you say something about the Catholics’ role in salvation and not mention Jesus Christ, the Bible/Tradition, the Holy Trinity and the Roman Catholic Church? How meaningful and self-explanatory would that answer be? It is weird to me that I find that certain passage that was use in a book that is suppose to clarify the faith to be rather ambiguous, to me this passage is like a politically correct answer that politician would give being neither here nor there as not to offend any group.
Just to add that, no matter how different things are today than two thousand years ago, there is no “things or reality” that exist today that pertains to a moral question that in some way that the Church can not answer because the divine revelation of the Bible was incomplete.
Well in the case pertaining to islam (even though koran & islam didn’t exist in the time of Jesus and the Apostles) there are certain heresies (that somehow became the cornerstone of islam) that were addressed by Jesus and the Apostles. Much to the chagrin of muslims, islam is not a new and improved religion over Christianity.
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thedarknight
Guest
I find paragraph 841 of the CCC reserved towards Islam. The logic is simple:
Either Islam is false and Christianity is true.
or
Christianity is false and Islam is true.
In the Koran, it says Muhammad is considered a prophet and a messenger of God. This is odd, since Saint John of the Baptist was the last prophet. Therefore, Muhammad is a wolf in sheep’s clothing (cf Matthew 7:15). As found in paragraph 719 of the CCC:
Either Islam is false and Christianity is true.
or
Christianity is false and Islam is true.
In the Koran, it says Muhammad is considered a prophet and a messenger of God. This is odd, since Saint John of the Baptist was the last prophet. Therefore, Muhammad is a wolf in sheep’s clothing (cf Matthew 7:15). As found in paragraph 719 of the CCC:
Furthermore, Muhammad had revelations from God, and that Islam corrects the errors of Christianity. This cannot be, as paragraph 67 of the CCC states:
Islam, unlike the Jewish faith is not related to Christianity at all. That is why interfaith dialogue, in my opinion cannot solely rest on theology/doctrines but must be based on the human dignity and freedom of religion. There are some truths in Islam that we can agree upon, however, as I have stated before, we as Catholics must never compromise on our beliefs.
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thedarknight
Guest
That part of your commentary caught my attention. I’ve been reading “Light of The World” a book that records an interview between journalist Peter Seewald and Pope Benedict XVI that took place in summer of 2010, spanning 6 hours (spread out over a couple of weeks). It is written in a question [in italics] and answer format. On page 82:
I thank God for Pope Benedict XVI as he is reversing the tide back to orthodoxy. Take notice, he never apologized for his Regensburg Address even though the Muslim world shouted in anger and violence. Merely, he was sorry that they misunderstood him.
That’s courage, a witness to faith and truth.
Viva Il Papa
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Indeed. I’m glad he didn’t take it back and apologize. Tough medicine but it’s the truth and Islam needs to hear it…
Take notice, he never apologized for his Regensburg Address even though the Muslim world shouted in anger and violence. Merely, he was sorry that they misunderstood him.
That’s courage, a witness to faith and truth.
Viva Il Papa
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Caldera
Guest
And to this day I’m still confused. I wish we could get a definitive answer. Is 841 binding on the faithful, or not? It does not fall into the category of faith and morals for Christianity.I concur. I think some Catholics are trying to side-step this passage. Some are saying it’s not infallible, some say it is since it’s in the catechism. Some say it’s much ado about nothing, some try to draw happy-clappy similarities between Islam and Christianity to ease consciences, some try to claim the catechism is giving us apologetics ammo and a way to charitably approach Muslims, some are saying it is actually something we should just shove aside for the greater good. I’m honestly bothered by the way this is treated so lightly. And it is disturbing. Some posters are even saying to just not read this but rather other, older catechisms that are better. This thread shows us that Catholicism isn’t as unified as I have thought and some profess. It is full of opinions and divergent thinking and we can’t even figure out what’s infallible and de fide and what’s not? I’m troubled by this greatly and hope I’m not alone here…
As I said in post #80, it was shocking to open this thread and read that we are bound to believe CCC481. Not only did my jaw drop to the floor, like I mentioned, but there were other events as well that I did not reveal.
See, prior to that, I was sitting very peacefully (very!) at my desk drinking my morning coffee, and waiting for my computer to boot up – all the while completely oblivious to the horrific string of events that were about to unfold in my life that day.
I got to CAF, and proceeded to click on this thread to view it for the first time. Upon reading, I suddenly began spraying a mouthful of hot coffee all over my brand new monitor screen. (Similar, I would say, to the way a sprayer at the car wash does when you pull the trigger)
Well, I panicked, and ran from my room to the kitchen to get a towel, except that, uhhh, well, … read on!
See, as I jumped up from my desk, my cat jumped up right in front of me, so I had to hurdle over her, and while in mid-air, I split my pants wide open, then, coming down I rammed my left thigh into the corner of my desk, and stubbed my right toe on the nearby bed frame.
I hopped on one leg to the stairwell, when unexpectedly, my cat jumped up at me into my arms and sent us both tumbling down 2-3 flights of stairs to the very bottom. (no worries, the cat is okay)
So now I have a broken left arm and right leg, bruised thigh, coffee stained monitor (still dripping), a stubbed toe, a ruined pair of pants, a probable concussion, and a migraine in development.
sigh
Uhh, anyway, to make a long story short, after I got my hair untangled from the blender in the kitchen (don’t even ask), and my arm freed from the sink garbage disposal (grr!), that’s when my jaw finally dropped to the floor. I stood there looking at my cat, and she gave me a cute little ‘meow’.
After I got home from the hospital in a practically full body cast, I was able to once again sit peacefully at my computer desk and ponder what had just happened. I pondered for a bit and came to the profound conclusion that, yes, CCC841 can be very problematic for some people!!
PS - Hope everyone has a healthy and happy new year!
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StevenFrancis
Guest
It is also very difficult for me to understand Allah as God. God is three persons/one God. Allah seems to only focus on God the Father, and even then has a different idea of that single aspect. To say Allah is God may have some truth to it in the sense that saying that a slice of bread is a sandwich. It is true that a sandwich must contain a slice of bread. In fact, it must contain 2 slices of bread, and a filling. So in this analogy, Allah is one slice of bread.
If Allah had appeared in mans thought prior to Christ, I suppose I could say that Allah was an incomplete understanding of YHWH, just as The Jewish people had/have an incomplete understanding by missing out on the connection with the Mesias having fulfilled their Old Testament prophecies, and therefore it was the same God, however not fully appreciated. But in the case of Allah - Mankind had already been through the incarnation! The Jews who accepted Mesias were already fulfilled and were now Jews who followed “The Way”, or when collectively thought of with the Gentiles who had accepted the “The Way”, they were “Christians”, as coined at Antioch.
Allah seems to be a misrepresentation of the Judeo Christian belief in God. It is monotheism gone minimalist. It removes most of the nature of God understood by Jews and Christians.
So…I don’t bear any disrespect to followers of Allah, and as with Hindus, Jains, Seiks, Mormons, Urantians etc., I believe that they believe what they say that they believe, but I don’t believe that it is the truth, nor do I accept the notion that it is the same God we are all seeing. The Christians do stand alone as having the full trinitarian understanding of God, even if trinitarian understanding itself, is impossible to grasp. Christians alone obediently submit to the trinity, and accept that we can not have a detailed understanding of the one true God.
Our Nicene creed describes God to the extent that mankind is able. This description does not match up with Allah, and it is difficult for me to grasp how it is the same monotheistic God. Out of the whole creed, we agree on only, and precisely this one single element:
We believe in one God. The Father the Almighty.
The maker of Heaven and Earth
Of all that is seen and unseen
That maxim is the aspect of God in which Allah shares definition. This is the slice of bread from my analogy at the beginning of all this.
But is God the Father, in and of Himself, (Allah), the same God that I pray to every day?
I have two or three times been dressed down rather sternly by Catholic apologists (who frankly know a lot more that I do), and have been told repeatedly that it is indeed the same God. Just the same God not fully realized. Okay. I believe they say that in the spirit of ecumenism, rather than in the spirit of philosophical and theological unified truth, and personally? I’m down with that. I don’t wish to argue the point any longer, because I don’t want to damage in any way my own love for my neighbor. I will accept that people who argue either way are correct, and that the Holy Spirit will guide us in prayer to the correct answer, if indeed one even need be sought.
Muslims believe that Allah is the one God. The same God who created the world. The God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob. They are fellow monotheists. They share much of the old testament scripture with us, and so, the adherent of Islam, at least, is convinced, and is not maliciously corrupting his understanding of God, which in most cases was taught from birth by well intentioned teachers and parents who also believe this. It is as true to them as it can be.
I will continue my Christian practice. I have been enlightened, by the grace of God to the idea of His Son, and the incarnation. I am ever thankful. I will pray always for my Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters, as well as my Mormon brothers and sisters, and the pantheists, and pagans, and Buddhists, atheists, and all other of humankind that Christ will one day unite us all in the kingdom of heaven.
Until then it is not my place to define God. Only to love and worship Him here, so that I may live with Him forever in Paradise.
I will have to accept the notion that Allah and the Judeo Christian God are one and the same because the leaders of all of our Churches say that they are.
I will accept this as an obedience of faith.
To the extent that we are in agreement, I agree. We all DO share God the creator. So to my thinking, Allah is a representation of the nature of God which we tend to think of as God the Father, though with some modification. That will have to suffice for me, and from there on, I stand in obedience to my Church, and her doctrine.
Blessings,
Steven
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Big_Ro
Guest
There is only one God. The maker of heaven and earth…
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tomarin
Guest
To Gurney and Dzheremi (if you’re still reading this) and of course anyone else who wants to comment:
Leaving aside the question of Muslims for a second, and just out of curiousity – what in your opinion should be the proper attitude of Christians to Jews? (That is, if I’m understanding you correctly that the post Vatican II Church has gone too far in buttering them up?). I can’t help but feel that whatever buttering has transpired the Church should be commended in striking a friendlier pose to them. Certainly it’s a better situation than what existed before, no? I for one would have problems accepting the legitimacy of a church that taught that every living Jew is responsible for the death of Christ (and I hope that was never an official teaching; nevertheless it appears that many Christians have believed that throughout the ages in Europe at the very least).
Leaving aside the question of Muslims for a second, and just out of curiousity – what in your opinion should be the proper attitude of Christians to Jews? (That is, if I’m understanding you correctly that the post Vatican II Church has gone too far in buttering them up?). I can’t help but feel that whatever buttering has transpired the Church should be commended in striking a friendlier pose to them. Certainly it’s a better situation than what existed before, no? I for one would have problems accepting the legitimacy of a church that taught that every living Jew is responsible for the death of Christ (and I hope that was never an official teaching; nevertheless it appears that many Christians have believed that throughout the ages in Europe at the very least).
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Hiskid1973
Guest
We’ll bro. for a quick answer, they are still the apple of His eye and He still has an everlasting tie to them…Although they rejected Him and the church turned toward the gentiles He has a end times plan for them…They will be judged accordingly as the law is in their hearts. The fullness of the gentiles will come…As with any outside of Christ, we are to love them and pray for them that the scales will fall off their eyes… Those that pierced Him will see Him in His glory…Always remember there is still unfulfilled prophecy…There is alot that will go on in the middle east…Ps84 war,Damascus oracle, Armageddon ect.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Well my attitude to the Jews is complicated I suppose. They are not saved as they reject the Saviour of the World, Jesus Christ. If they continue to reject Him, then in a way they are as guilty as their ancestors. I wonder why we all believe in Original Sin and that we retain the guilt and sin of Adam and Eve (Orthodox excluded here of course) and yet we cannot accept the idea that the Jews carry on the curse they gave themselves is unthinkable?
"And the whole people said in reply, “His blood be upon us and upon our children.” Then he released Barabbas to them, but after he had Jesus scourged, he handed him over to be crucified." Matthew 27:25-26 Perhaps there is an expiration date? Maybe there is?
God knows the Jewish people have been through hell and back whether it was the 40 years in the desert, invasion by Babylon and exile along with it, invasion by Romans, the Diaspora, being mistreated and hated in Europe for centuries, Hitler and the Holocaust, mistreatment by Stalin and company, inquisitions, living in a land surrounded by hostile Muslim enemies in this day and age, etc. God knows they’ve suffered. I happen to support Israel and I’m not a fan of the Palestinians one bit. I have also read a lot about the Holocaust and am fascinated by the heroics of many Jews during those dark times. Will the Jews be saved by Christ? Only He knows. But I feel we should pray for their conversion. They reject the King of Kings, their salvation. We are told by the Church that salvation is “possible” for them but I reject the “big brother” routine and the pandering. We need to fulfill the Great Commission and not assume anything.
Do I think calling them “Christ-killers” is productive, charitable, or helpful? Not in the slightest. But we must assume the worst and pray for their conversion, witness to them, and fight for their souls to become Christian.
"And the whole people said in reply, “His blood be upon us and upon our children.” Then he released Barabbas to them, but after he had Jesus scourged, he handed him over to be crucified." Matthew 27:25-26 Perhaps there is an expiration date? Maybe there is?
God knows the Jewish people have been through hell and back whether it was the 40 years in the desert, invasion by Babylon and exile along with it, invasion by Romans, the Diaspora, being mistreated and hated in Europe for centuries, Hitler and the Holocaust, mistreatment by Stalin and company, inquisitions, living in a land surrounded by hostile Muslim enemies in this day and age, etc. God knows they’ve suffered. I happen to support Israel and I’m not a fan of the Palestinians one bit. I have also read a lot about the Holocaust and am fascinated by the heroics of many Jews during those dark times. Will the Jews be saved by Christ? Only He knows. But I feel we should pray for their conversion. They reject the King of Kings, their salvation. We are told by the Church that salvation is “possible” for them but I reject the “big brother” routine and the pandering. We need to fulfill the Great Commission and not assume anything.
Do I think calling them “Christ-killers” is productive, charitable, or helpful? Not in the slightest. But we must assume the worst and pray for their conversion, witness to them, and fight for their souls to become Christian.
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dzheremi
Guest
Since it isn’t, strictly speaking, CCC 841 territory, I suppose that’s a fair question to ask, Tomarin…though I hope I’m not being led into something…
Anyway, my view would be more or less the same as Gurney’s regarding the Jews (minus his stance on Israel-Palestine, which is a political problem and as such a separ how the Jews as a people should be seen by Christians). No people get some sort of “fast track” to salvation or additional consideration in light of their antiquity or any other factor, as though such things might mitigate their disbelief in the Savior. There is the issue of covenants made by God to Israel through Abraham, but I don’t think those are necessarily as wide-ranging and inviolable as I once thought (again, while I was still taking my cues from the RCC). They always require Israel to act in a certain manner or perform a certain task (e.g., circumcision in the original covenant with Abraham in Gen. 17), and when she doesn’t, God punishes her as He sees fit, as in Isaiah 10 through the Assyrian invasion. It doesn’t necessarily break any given covenant (Is. 10 does not mention any infidelity to ritual circumcision, so I would assume that God’s covenant with Abraham still stood, even as Israel was messing up in many other ways), but I think the very fact that Israel is required to act right in order to fulfill them shows that they are not “eternal” in the way that some people would like them to be in order to substantiate wicked ideas like that Jews do not necessarily need to accept Christ. That is hogwash. Christ was incarnate to save ALL of mankind, and ALL people need to accept Him. We pray for God’s mercy for those who do not do so, whether they are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Zoroastrians, etc. He will deal with them (as with us) as He sees fit.
Christ, the fulfillment of the Law and the incarnation of the Word of God, is the ONLY way to salvation. “No one comes through the Father except through me” means exactly what it sounds like it means, and you better believe it applies to the Jews.
Anyway, my view would be more or less the same as Gurney’s regarding the Jews (minus his stance on Israel-Palestine, which is a political problem and as such a separ how the Jews as a people should be seen by Christians). No people get some sort of “fast track” to salvation or additional consideration in light of their antiquity or any other factor, as though such things might mitigate their disbelief in the Savior. There is the issue of covenants made by God to Israel through Abraham, but I don’t think those are necessarily as wide-ranging and inviolable as I once thought (again, while I was still taking my cues from the RCC). They always require Israel to act in a certain manner or perform a certain task (e.g., circumcision in the original covenant with Abraham in Gen. 17), and when she doesn’t, God punishes her as He sees fit, as in Isaiah 10 through the Assyrian invasion. It doesn’t necessarily break any given covenant (Is. 10 does not mention any infidelity to ritual circumcision, so I would assume that God’s covenant with Abraham still stood, even as Israel was messing up in many other ways), but I think the very fact that Israel is required to act right in order to fulfill them shows that they are not “eternal” in the way that some people would like them to be in order to substantiate wicked ideas like that Jews do not necessarily need to accept Christ. That is hogwash. Christ was incarnate to save ALL of mankind, and ALL people need to accept Him. We pray for God’s mercy for those who do not do so, whether they are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Zoroastrians, etc. He will deal with them (as with us) as He sees fit.
Christ, the fulfillment of the Law and the incarnation of the Word of God, is the ONLY way to salvation. “No one comes through the Father except through me” means exactly what it sounds like it means, and you better believe it applies to the Jews.
H
Hiskid1973
Guest
Bro Dzheremi …What are your thoughts on the unfulfilled prophecy and Jesus having another flock they don’t know ? What about the time of the gentiles ? Do you see islam as fitting into end times theology ?
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