i thought how ironic…you’re demonstraing how non-violent your faith is…with a violent demonstration? huh?
i dunno. I think the Pope could have chosen his words differently, but his sole role is to help lead souls to Christ. Pope JP2 seemed to be a bit more eloquent when it came to bridging the communication gaps between other faiths. Oh well…we must pray for people of all faiths…that we practice forgiveness and mercy, as our God teaches.In our Western culture that is true. Apologies and trying to make peace are seen as a sign of weakness to a Muslim. They do not comprehend our Christian concept of peace.
And yet Al-Qaeda had at least two plots to kill PJII which, thankfully, never happened. There was also a plot to bomb the Vatican. To fully live their faith, Muslims are required to rid the world of non-believers. Wording something more carefully wouldn’t change that.
Where did you get the idea that being able to offer a heartfelt apology that you know is not correct and is a lie, is a sign of strength?
The western road to perdition is lined with heartfelt apologies to Muslims. Muslims dont think like us. We may see an apology as having strong character and virtue but these folks are from another planet. This being sorry for saying things to them indicate a certain weakness and reinforces their view of our “decadence” here in the west.
Yes I agree we need to stop letting them make in-roads into western society.
That makes so much sense. :whacky:
War on the Vatican hasn’t begun I guess… Let’s pray it doesn’t. Our pope was taking your side in the argument, by the way, Mike. Unfortunately, so far, many on the opposing side doesn’t want to reason, they want to physically attack.I see all the threads have been moved now. Thanks
Mike
Yes. Already have; I will again.
Yes, I see that from his clarification. I think he made a bad decision to use that quote. If he absolutely had to (why?), he should have made it clearer from the start that he didn’t agree with it. I think that was a very bad idea.
From reading the entire lecture it leads me to think he was trying to say that the argument against violent conversion is this:
If I were a devout Muslim, I would take issue with the Pope’s statements as well, because they are completely abhorrent to Islam where you are expected to submit to the will of God and not to reason. Violence becomes a method of the religion.
I agree with both of these points. It is unfortunate that the Pope chose that quote and it is mind-boggling that he simply left it hanging, as if he approved of the viewpoint.
Oh, I agree. There is nothing new there though. Two different religions (albeit with close links) have a different outlook on faith and the relationship with God.
It can be, if that is to be believed as God’s will. However, reason can lead us to violence too (witness recent events), so I’m not sure we’re much better off.
…in relations with God. Muslims are just as capable of reason as anyone else in other aspects of life, of course. I won’t go into the various scientific and mathematical advances that people who follow Islam have given us, for example, but we shouldn’t ignore them either.
Oh, I agree entirely, and I’m very happy to be in a religion that stresses ‘reason’ (my various posts on all manner of issues should make that clear).
Amen Brother…
Sure, but I am not sure that was the point of this lecture… maybe a subsequent one (which now may not happen).
We are talking about religion here, not science or math. Muslims believe the Quran is the absolute word of God. There is no interpretation allowed. They believe it was recited, not inspired.
I don’t see any reconciliation with Islam, period. Christianity and Islam are competing faiths. At least that is how Islam views Christianity.
Would a more recent quote saying pretty much the same thing make any difference? I doubt it. We are talking about fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity here, and it is the Pope’s responsibility to point out the differences as well as the similarities so the faithful do not have the misconception that somehow the faiths are equivalent. They are not. Islam is a heresy. Nothing in Nostra Aetate says otherwise.
I know. But that doesn’t stop Muslims from using reason when, say, inventing algebra, or doing chemistry.
I think at any realistic level, that goes both ways. I’m surprised anyone is trying to reconcile them, to be honest. They are clearly different faiths, even if they share a common root.
I agree. But the Pope could have said any number of quotes - he could have used my post above, for example - that makes it clear that Christians use reason in their relationship with God, and we strongly oppose spreading faith by the sword. We don’t have to start saying things like everything that has come from Islam is evil and inhuman. I find it difficult to believe that the Pope couldn’t have found a better quote that satisfied what he was trying to say without causing quite so much offense.
I can’t agree with that. People are converting to Islam all over the globe. For the most part, they aren’t doing it to oppress other people or to cause death and destruction.
